Commission Approves Downtown Hotel and Garage with Material-Reordering and Activation Renderings After Heated Design Debate

We're going to call this meeting to order. It today is still Wednesday, July 15th. This is the Heritage Preservation Commission meeting. Um we'll start with call to order. That's this. Um the public can submit comments that can be read at the dis by staff member to the commission lazison. Send it to Lauren Clementino flag or L. Clementino at flags.gov and we did receive comments and I thank the public for participating. It's exciting. Call to order. Notice of option to recess.

We did opt option into rec option to recess into executive session. And thank you all for your patience. Roll call, please. Duffy Westimer here. Alec Overman present. Emily Dale present. Jesse Dominguez here. Alicia Hayes present. Jeannie Stevens present. Caitlyn Stewart present. Okay. Thank you everybody. Who would like to read the land acknowledgement? I can do it.

Uh the Heritage Preservation Commission humbly acknowledges the ancestral homelands of this area's indigenous nations and original stewards. These lands still inhabited by native descendants. Border mountains sacred to indigenous peoples. We honor them, their legacies, their traditions, and their continued contributions. We celebrate their past, present, and future generations who will forever know this place as home. Thank you, Commissioner Dale. Using your professor voice, that's awesome.

All right. Now, we also have the Heritage Preservation Commission purpose. If no one else wants to read, I'm willing to read that one. Anyone want to? Okay.

The purpose of the Heritage Preservation Commission is to protect and enhance the cultural, historical, and archaeological heritage of the city of Flagstaff by recognizing preserving enhancing and perpetuating the use of those objects, structures, sites, and landscape features that represent distinctive elements of the city's cultural, political architectural and archaeological history.

The council finds and intends that preservation of the city's heritage is in the interest of the health, economic prosperity, education, cultural enrichment, and general welfare of the public. The commission implements the city's general plan and is implemented pursuant to the provisions, excuse me, of the National Historic Preservation Act of 1966 as amended, the Certified Local Government Program and Arizona State Statute providing the standards and procedures for heritage preservation.

Thank you, Commissioner Stevens. That takes us to item five, open call to the public. At this time, any member of the public may address the commission on any subject within their jurisdiction that is not scheduled before the commission on this day. Due to the open meeting laws, the commission cannot discuss or act on items presented during this portion of the agenda.

To address the commission on an item that is on the agenda, please wait for the chair to call for public comment at the time the item is heard and be sure to submit your cards. Okay. So, now we moved to item six, approval of the minutes. [snorts] That was um of both the executive session on June 17th and we'll do the minutes for the commission meeting on the same day. Does anyone have any changes to make or addition?

I am listed Commissioner Dale as both present and absent at these meetings and I was absent. So, I would just like that to be reflected. Nothing else. Okay, let's vote to approve the minutes. All in favor say I. I. I. Any opposed with the amendment that I was not the amendment. Thank you. Any opposed? I hear none. So it passes. So now we move to item seven, public hearing. A 19 Westbrook Avenue certificate of appropriateness. So we're opening this public hearing.

The property information is 19 West Birch, three parcels owned by Capri Flags have LLC and Laroo Retail LLC. So the requested action is to approve a certificate of appropriateness for design of new hotel and parking garage buildings. So we can um this is a complex issue. So I got uh before we get into that, I apologize. I have to recuse myself. Commissioner Stewart needs to recuse themselves. Okay. So Commissioner Commissioner Stewart just recused herself.

So there is no um detailed organization for this meeting. So if the rules of procedure for the council meetings work, I think we'll use them here. We might revise it a little bit when we get to our discussion. So we we can start with the staff presentation which is limited to 10 minutes unless uh the commission gives you permission to speak longer. Thank you. Okay. Thank you. Lauren Clementino, Heritage Preservation Officer. Um, so this is an amended presentation.

Um, as you remember, I presented to the commission in May when you first heard this item. So, this is a um abbreviated presentation based on all the information that I provided in May. Um, and was also updated to reflect the commission's request for additional information and and um focus on that.

Um, so as you mentioned, we're here to review a certificate of appropriateness for design of new hotel and parking garage buildings on three parcels and a quick overview of the applicability of a certificate of appropriateness. Um, and again, we happy to go over any of this more in detail, but we covered the applicability um, and also walked through all of the approval um, criteria for approval in in the May meeting. So, in the interest of time, I'll just um, you know, quickly pull it up here.

Happy to answer any commission questions or go go back to these items. uh some limited project background. Um again, as you've been reviewing these items, but this is to construct a new hotel and parking garage at 19 West Birch Avenue utilizing three parcels. These parcels are located within the downtown historic overlay zone. Um which is why a certificate of appropriateness is required and the design review is subject to the design handbook for downtown Flag Staff.

And to recap um the commission's decision at the May meeting. So in on May 20th, the commission reviewed a first submitt of the certificate of appropriateness application. The commission voted to request specific additional information regarding the design of the new hotel and parking garage buildings. The commission developed the following list of requested additional information regarding the design.

Um and so these three bullet points are the specific information that the applicant was requested to come back with and and that is this what the applicant um has added to their application and is here to discuss today. So first as it relates to the design guideline N2 of the design handbook. New buildings should appear similar in mass and scale with historic structures in the area.

More information is requested to demonstrate that the proposed buildings are similar in mass and scale to the historic structures in the area. As it relates to design guideline N5, use building materials that are similar to those employed historically for all major surfaces. Consideration of use of a greater proportion of malipi stone in the hotel design is requested with a particular request to consider replacing the stucco or limestone tile on the columns with malipi stone.

And lastly, as it relates to potential impacts on the integrity of the downtown historic overlay zone and railroad edition historic district, consideration of the design's effect on integrity of feeling is requested. Use of a greater percentage of Malipi stone was used as an example by the commission in discussion of a design modification that could address retention of integrity of feeling.

Consideration of integrity of feeling as it relates to walkability, pedestrian experience, and compatibility was also requested. Um and just a reminder again the we're talking specifically about the design guidelines um in the downtown handbook and that is because we are within the downtown um overlay zone.

And this is the the zoning code language um which sets up the nexus for design review of new buildings being subject to a certificate of appropriateness and subject to the specific design guidelines. And so now I'm pulling up um design guideline N2. Um last month we went over all of the applicable design guidelines to the case, but the commission only um found two that they wanted additional information on.

So those are the only two that I'm going to focus on in the presentation, but I do have them all available as additional slides um if I need to pull those up. So the summary for N2, new buildings should appear similar in mass and scale with historic structures in the area. Um and the three bullets below are uh additional description available in the design handbook um for how this could be achieved. Where new building facads will be wider than those found traditionally.

Subdivide the surface into portions similar in scale to historic facades by varying setbacks, roof forms, and materials. Building height should be within the range of buildings traditionally built downtown. In general, those are two to four stories in height. Maximum building height is 60 feet.

However, building height should be within the range of buildings traditionally built downtown and oh, sorry, some of this repeated, but a maximum building height um and this does repeat in the handbook um under a photo and a maximum building height limit of 55 ft is recommended. So, there is um somewhat contrary language there. As you'll note, the recommendation is four stories um and 55 ft. However, 60 feet um is allowable by code and in the design guidelines.

Um and so now discussion from um the staff report. Um much of this was in the original staff report reviewed in May um with some uh revisions based on the new materials submitted. The hotel facade surface was subdivided through use of varying materials including brick, malipi, stone, stucco and glass. The parking garage facade was also subdivided um per the guidelines through varying materials including brick and pre-cast concrete that has um two different treatments to it.

Um and both are also subdivided via use of massing articulation or recesses to divide this facades. And again, um, in summary, although 55 feet is recommended, the downtown design handbook and the underlying zoning both allow for 60 feet, um, which both buildings are within.

And in response to the commission's request at the May meeting, the applicant has provided um additional materials um which they will go over in their presentation on how um it relates to mass and scale with other historic structures um and non-historic structures in the area within the downtown historic overlay zone and also um provided written materials in your packet.

And so again, N5 was a second specific design guideline that the commission asked for additional information on and this is use of building materials that are similar to those employed historically for all major surfaces. The description in the design handbook is materials should be similar in appearance to those used historically. New materials may be used if their appearances are similar to those of the historic building materials such as brick or native stone.

uh use finishes similar to historic buildings in the district. And it specifically calls out brick and stone as appropriate materials for large surfaces and on buildings of the Route 66 era. Stuckco may also be considered and information again um that was in your packet and the staff report. So uh brick and stone um are as stated in the design guidelines are appropriate materials for large surfaces. They are um the primary brick is the primary material for both buildings.

Malpai stone is also a primary material for the hotel building. In response to the commission comments at the May meeting, the updated renderings in the second submitt show an increased use of malipi stone across the ground floor level of the hotel. And as the commission requested, it replaced the malipi or it replaced the limestone material that was depicted in the first submittal um meeting. those two specific requests by the commission.

The design guidelines also state that new materials may be used um if they mimic those mimic historic materials. The parking garage design employs use of sand blasted concrete to mimic masonry and the hotel design employs use of hardy panels that mimic wood. Um, also calling out here, um, in the Flagstaff zoning codes, architectural design standards, stucco and untreated concrete are considered appropriate as secondary materials, meaning that they are used in less than 25% of the facade.

Um in my previous reviews I asked the applicant to demonstrate those calculations on the plans um which they have in your packet and uh they do meet the provided calculations do meet the architectural design standards um for those as secondary materials and um the primary material calculations for the brick and stone are also included.

Um so to the integrity of feeling um analysis that was requested by the commission um integrity of feeling is in the heritage preservation code in the cultural resource studies section. So feeling is one of the seven aspects of integrity um set forth by the national register and also in the heritage preservation code locally to determine integrity when evaluating a cultural resource in the context of a cultural resource study.

Um, and I put the definition in the cultural resource section of our code of what feeling is here in the in the middle. A property's expression of the aesthetic or historic sense of a particular period of time. It results from the presence of physical features that taken together convey the property's historic character. So that is the definition of feeling um and how it its integrity is conveyed.

Um and per again the culture resource section of our code major impacts to cultural resources and the determination of major impacts also looks at all seven aspects of integrity including feeling. So those are the specific places in our code where um feeling can be pointed to.

Um and so to the extent that feeling can be analyzed in the certificate of appropriateness section of our code uh for new construction, the proposed building and garage um and staff opinion and in the staff report would not constitute a major impact to the downtown historic overlay zone or the nearby railroad edition historic district. Okay. Would a commission like me to finish my staff presentation? Yeah. Okay.

Well, note that I was not informed before the meeting that I had a 10-minute time limit. So, um and so the applicant um per the commission request submitted updated renderings in the second submitt that showed the increase use of malipi stone again which was the specific commission request on how to address integrity of feeling that is in updated in the packet.

The applicant also prepared a narrative response discussing walkability, compatibility, and the pedestrian experience um as requested and plans to go through that in their presentation. So, the staff recommendation um is that uh a certificate of appropriateness for the design of the buildings be approved. Uh it meets the downtown design handbook for downtown Flag Staff.

Um and as such it's appropriate to um make uh approve a certificate of appropriateness based on these findings and the commission um has these options. The commission can approve the certificate of appropriateness for the design. The commission could approve the certificate appropriateness for the design with conditions related to additional information um if necessary to resolve conditions of approval. um or the commission can deny the application. Now, are there any questions at this stage?

If not, we can invite the applicant up to do their presentation. Any commissioners have questions? No. So we now we can as Lauren said invite the if the applicant would like to make a presentation following the council's rules of procedures that you have 10 minutes. Thank you. Thank you very much commissioner. My name is Tyler Mark. I'm here presenting on behalf of the applicant Jim Okonnell. So we'll start with the uh the presentation here.

um the three topics of discussion N2, N5 and the act activation integrity of feeling as discussed by Lauren. So we'll start off with the design guideline N2 um and the building should be appear in similar in mass and scale with the historic structures in the area. So what we did is we actually u obviously digitally planted this into um Google Earth photos to give you a perspective on what the building will look like when it's completed in relation to buildings in the area.

um just for a sense of scale and mass. Again, as Lauren has mentioned, the the the property per the code uh meets the code requirements of 60 ft and there is a bunch of vertical or I mean horizontal articulations both on the garage and the hotel to meet those setback requirements. This is another view from the north. Kind of puts it in perspective with um the residents in the the courthouse. uh also other structures nearby.

You know, for us, it's it's kind of representative of the the impact that the the building does have on the downtown. It's not imposing. That's our perspective. So, as as Lauren mentioned, the hotel facade has been subdivided brick malpai limestone stucco glass. Um I believe in in response to Alex's comment adding much more limestone or excuse me malipai to the uh the hotel facade was incorporated. I'll show that photo here in just a little bit.

Garage facade has been subdivided by using brick pre-cast both sandlasted and smooth. And as I mentioned before both buildings are subdivided using massing articulation recesses every so often as required by the code. So we have met all those requirements and and as mentioned before the 55 ft height requirement is recommended. 60 ft is allowable. Um so we are meeting that max requirement at the 60 ft.

So in response to Alex request last time we we've redone the the renderings of uh the hotel itself. What you'll see here I don't know if you can see my cursor but all of the ground floor is now Malpai. Um we we feel that it actually I think it looks great personally but um you know initially we had a lot more uh limestone tile there I believe and I I think it breaks it up and gives a little bit of um call back to the history of the building as it stands today.

Uh this is also another uh view from basically across the street from Birch from the north looking south. Um figured we'd give you some more of the elevations just to give you a feel for what the rest of the building looks like. This is the south elevation. So, if you're in the alley between us and Centry Link, um this is what you'd be looking at. It's a tight alley. Um but a lot of brick. Um there's hardy panel, there's um limestone tile, a little bit of stucco up top.

And this is from the east elevation, which would be the alley in between the garage and the hotel. Also kind of the same theme running along the the brick and uh stucco looks. Garage renderings. Um, we put these up here for the same reason. We want to show the articulation of the building, the massing, the scale. This building's only four to four and a half stories tall, depending on where what part of the garage you're in.

Um, a lot of brick, uh, sand blasted, um, uh, pre-cast and, um, you know, some a little bit of stucco on these bands up here up top. Again, just some elevations with the the color palette. I wanted to give you guys a feel. These aren't quite as rendered as well as the other one, but um if you look at the details, I I put the call outs on here just so you guys could get a feel for what actually what the garage looks like when it's completed. Um these are the east and west elevations.

Again, the east elevation would be along Laroo, west elevation would be along the alley. Uh moving on to design guideline N5 and and for us N5 and N2 kind of overlap a little bit, but um they're very similar in what they're requesting. So appropriate materials for large surfaces. Brick is the primary material for both buildings. Malpi and limestone are also used as primary on the hotel building. Um the design guidelines state that new materials may be used as as Lauren mentioned.

Um we tried to limit that. Hardy panel to me I'm not a big fan of it but it does reference back you know to the to the feel of um wood and the the garage itself being pre-cast. It's awful difficult to integrate brick or stone. But um we've done our best to maximize that and use sand blasted and and painted textures to kind of break everything up.

Um again, as Lauren has mentioned, we have met the the minimum requirements or excuse me, maximum requirements of the uh secondary material materials and met the minimum requirements of the primary materials. um activation. I think this was the biggest takeaway that I that I took from not only in discussing this with you guys last time, but also in reaching out to the public. I've met with the uh historic um or excuse me, the downtown business alliance on multiple occasions.

Also met with the city just discussing like what the impact of these buildings will have on walkability, the feel of the pedestrian experience for somebody who's going to be walking along Laroo or Birch down the road. And we we actually had multiple different meetings with with the DBA to just try to get a feel for what was what was missed, right? What happened a year ago to now and what can we do now at this point to try to mitigate that.

So, we talked a lot about, hey, could we stick retail in here? Could we could we change the building? Could we move the building? There's a lot of constraints on the site itself and just the way to get in and out of the garage itself. It's physically not possible to take the garage and put it where the hotel is. there's not enough space to get the alley and the dumpsters and everything else in there to get out of the garage if we moved it to where the hotel is.

So, that's the biggest constraint on why the the garage is sitting where it's at. And if you looked at the overall site plan, you'll notice that the um the overall footprint of the um the property lines for the hotel is actually smaller than it is for the garage, and that's because of the exit lane. Yes, Mr. remarks. Thank you for all this information. Could you bring up a visual of that for us, please? Sure. Thank you. We do that one. Okay.

So, I think the civil plans will show you kind of talking about here. So, okay. So, what you're looking at here is the hotel. And I wish these were side by side, but you'll notice right here there's a there's an alleyway right here. As you progress to the east and we tie into the garage, you'll see this little step right here. Goes like this. That creates the amount of space required to get out of the garage and still have the easement.

This alley easement that is from the neighboring property and enough room for the dumpsters and the trash compactor. So, physically, if we took this and tried to flop it over to the hotel, we wouldn't have this additional space right here. this this dimension right here really controls the fact that you can't get out of the garage if we put it where the hotel is physically not possible. So I think did that answer the question you were looking for?

Yeah, I I kind of thought initially when somebody brought this up to me a couple weeks, yeah, that's a good idea, but then I looked at it and it's it's just physically not possible to get cars in and out. That's why the alley as you're coming in off of um um Beaver, this is a one-way alley because two-way traffic won't fit. So that's what the constraint was. Jumping back. Chair, if I may, could I ask um Mr.

remarks to clarify one more thing just for so the commission knows and you may also want to mention that the the design per I believe previous city staff request as well as DBA request was that the entrance to and from the parking garage be from the alley and not from one of the primary streets to help with the pedestrian experience which is also why um they revised the design to get it to where it is here.

Um and and [clears throat] again underscores why it the request was from the alley for the pedestrian experience and why it's on that location. Wait, Alicia. Alicia, um could you wait because they wanted us to identify who's speaking for people listening. So, Commissioner Hayes. Yes. I couldn't quite see as I leaned over where you were pointing with the cursor of the entrances. Can you show that again? So, you're coming in from which street? So you're and heading which direction?

So you're to get into the garage to to get into the garage itself. You're coming um off of Laroo and then that would be west into what is now an alley to get into the garage. So kind of you're going to turn in here or conversely turn in here, go up. Now if you were going to go if you were going to come in off of Beaver, you would only be able to be heading southbound. is a oneway street and then you'll be able to take a left.

So, you'll be heading east in this alley, but that's a one-way alley at that point. So, you can only go east. Thank you. You bet. Um, so back to the activation pedestrian experience. So, I myself personally, I've lived here 18 years, raised my kids here. Um, love the downtown. I agree with some of the comments that I picked up on with uh the downtown alliance business alliance. So what we've done and I think this is kind of an important thing is we're trying to engage the public.

Oh probably put it on presentation. There you go. Bigger screen. So what we did was we we tried to analyze is it even possible to put retail under the garage? Uh short answer is no because the garage as you go up a garage has very little headroom at grade level. So there's not a physical unless you wanted a retail space that was about three and a half ft tall. So physically not possible to put in the garage. So what we said is what what can we do to activate the streets?

Um the landscape plantings as they stand have you know lots of plants, trees, benches, all the things that are required uh within the landscape buffer to meet the minimum landscape requirements of the city of Flagstaff for our area under our zoning. Um and meeting with the city, meeting with the DBA, um came up with these blocks, these red blocks here are what we want to do is create micro retail there.

Now, that could be, you know, the crepery place that's right next to um downtown billiards and that's connected to Oldtown Shops. That is a micro retail. That footprint is about 8 feet deep. I guess I'm out of time. Okay. So, I got the waiver from the boss. So, I appreciate that. We we interrupted you to for more information. So, I'll talk fast.

Uh we created these blocks and what what the intent here is is along Laroo is to try to create um a micro retail that could be a food truck type guy or something similar to the crepery uh facility. They're self-contained. So what the developer has agreed to do and working with the city um is potentially eliminate the the landscaping for these areas, create a concrete pad or brick pad with a a circuit for power.

So the whoever the retailer is or micro restaurant could plug in, but they're self-contained just just like the crepery. They have their own water. They have their own commissaries, so sewer and water is not needed. And we we intended to do that or we intend to do that along Laroo. Also, there's a nice little pocket here on Birch. Over here at the hotel, within the hotel is a cafe. And what we had proposed is is kind of a seating area in those landscape uh planters.

So again, same brick or concrete there to create seats kind of like what you see out in front of pay and take what you see in front of shift a a small spot to where if somebody wanted to get coffee, they could sit, hang out, you know, and that that enliven the street. You got people sitting there eating, hanging out, talking, reading reading the paper or doing whatever they're doing. So we felt that that u met some of the needs of uh the DBA in conjunction with the city beautifification grants.

We we kind of came up with the idea of what what about murals like mural mice on the side of uh the orphium. There's uh beautifification grants that the city has specifically for this types of things for murals for um artwork for uh 2D metal sculptures things of those nature. And uh the applicant has agreed and actually I'm encouraged because I think it looks cool to put it up along um the garage itself.

There's there's large sections of garage and little pop outs of the garage that we could either eliminate the brick or paint over the brick or you know do it along the top bands. To us we see it as an opportunity to engage the public and go hey let's put up um you know some sort of um event where people can propose I want to do this or I want to do that. Bring in the bring in the team. bring in the HPC if you guys would like to be involved with it.

Vote on who gets to do what and we could do some really cool murals on the garage. I personally think it's going to break up um the size of the garage. You know, we've done a lot to make the garage look good as it stands, but there's only so much you can do with a garage. So, I think color and art, I think, would really activate that and the DBA was in uh firm agreement with that.

So, um, that's our thoughts for the garage itself and the and the hotel in in response to y'all's request, Alex request to add Malpi. I think we've met, uh, the requirements asked upon us to explain where we're at. You know, I'm I'm more than happy to take questions um kind of dive into anything deeper if you have more information needed. Commissioner Haste, do you have um a rendering of what some of that micro business space might look like from an ele elevation view?

So, we can see you just have the the ground the plan view. It it ca it came up in a discussion over the past two weeks with the DBA to kind of it could be something similar to the crepery. That's the prime example because I think that really fits in with the building itself. I mean, you don't even notice it if you've, you know, if you've been here long enough, it kind of blends in with the the building at this point. And that's the intent.

Now, what it ultimately wants to be, I think, um, it just needs to be a place to where we can get micro retail in there and make it ti tied into the streetscape. Now, mind you, we have the 5ft buffer, landscape buffer, then we've got about a we've got about a 7 and 1/2t sidewalk plus another 2 and 1/2t brick band. So the constraint that you get in right around pay and take where it's real tight, we won't have that big of an issue.

We've got a lot more uh street skates because of our our landscape buffer. Um that was one of the the comments brought up last time which I think um I know is in the packet, but the feeling of see here the walkability. So, we just went around and took some photos. As we all know, downtown Flag, most buildings are straight on the sidewalk and and to me, not very engaging. We've got we've already got the benefit of a 5ft setback. We've got the benefit of the articulations.

I think it makes a lot of sense to be able to slide some micro retail in these pockets and really tie uh people's eyes and the activation to to the pedestrian. Commissioner Over. Thank you. Uh stay on the topic of the [clears throat] micro retail. Is the developer going to try to recruit micro retailers or is it just going to be like a listed prop um lease? It would need to be a lease um just because of the way that the city has to work with it.

We need a little bit of space from the city which they've agreed to be able to do. And all of these properties that we mentioned before, there is a lease agreement with the city in place for insurance reasons and whatnot. It's not meant to be an income stream. It's actually really meant to to tie everything together. Okay. Then uh questions regarding the Malpai stone. I just want to say thank you very much. I do appreciate the addition more addition of Maui stone on the first floor.

I do think it looks fantastic. I just have a couple questions just out of curiosity. So I do recall and it was in the staff report that Commissioner Dominguez request uh suggested Malpai stone on that large column. This one right here. Yeah. And I'm just cur if there's a reason why we're trying to tie the ground floor to the top floor. Top floor is mostly the you know that limestone look. So, and again, limestone is a is a acceptable material.

I feel like it does break up and and add some dynamic in the color. You know, malpai is very dark. This this malpie right here is not my favorite malpi. I don't like the gaseous malpi. I like the the smooth. Um, and that's what we'd be targeting because that's more historic. Um, and if you put that much brown on a building and tie tie it all the way up, the nose of the building, the prominent feature of the building is lost. Okay.

And then um this is also just another curiosity to Mount Pine Stone. I do notice if you go if you look at the hotel and go more towards the parking garage in this photo um that brick wall right there. I'm just curious about that. Why did that's that way? It's just a breakup. It kind of mimics what's going on with the windows. And if you look at the current building right now, it it's very similar. What happens as you go around the corner, you start seeing a lot more brick.

Um, so we, you know, that's kind of we're trying to meld the old with new. Um, it's kind of tough, you know, architecturally to make it all make sense and not just have one big blob up there. Right. So, personally, I think it looks more dynamic, um, as opposed to just a large mess wall like this one that I don't think has much character. Yeah, I have I have no problems with it currently. I just was curious of why it stopped where it stopped and it began where it began.

Uh I do appreciate this and I appreciate um I just want to say I appreciate everything the developer and you have done in meeting our requirements and suggestions when it comes to preservation measures and design guidelines. Absolutely. Thank you. And and again, you know, the last presentation I should have done better. I said this a couple weeks ago. I should have done better in putting it into something more palatable than a stack of paper that you guys have to read through. It's not fun.

Um, pictures speak louder than words. We know that. Um, and I I feel like what this building is and how much movement it's got vertically, horizontally, um, ins and outs and various materials, I think is is quite dynamic for the downtown. Commissioner Stevens, I just want to thank you so much for the presentation. Um, I also really just want to say that I think that the work that you did with the business associations and all of the outreach, um, it's excellent and and and very much appreciated.

Um, I have some comments and just a question. Um, you know, the murals and the micro retail space um, seem like a very uh, proactive um, approach to this um, and really seems to address a lot of the concerns that have been brought up. um you know, one one idea. And I know the murals are way down the line, but you know, maybe even some his history interpretation, you know, um in those murals to to honor what's been lost or what will be lost. Um and then to tie it in, you know, to tie it in.

So that's that's just one idea um that I wanted to just put out there. And then I do have a question being that um this is the maximum allowable height. I'm not a safety professional, but um would there be any types of like fall protection or other structures that would need to be placed on top that could complicate the height requirement and the max height requirement? So, I'm just bringing that up.

not my area of expertise, but if say down the line there had to be other structures put on top for whatever reasons, safety reasons, fall protection, whatnot, I just wanted to just ask that question. If additions were put on the building, the city would still review those um to for the the max height requirement.

There are specific um if you read get into the weeds of the code specific things that can go like um you know a rooftop appliance that can be over and it's screening that can be over the height requirement. But again we would we will follow city code um as we do with all additions to buildings downtown and review that as those happen. Thank you. Um and the only reason I brought it up is once it's up it's up right. And so, um, just it being at that max height, I just wanted to raise the question.

Thank you. I I would say that in other municipalities where I've built buildings up to max building height, um, the parapit heights very small. So, professionals that go up there to service roofs come with their own fall protection and we build in anchoring systems that are you can't see from the ground and they don't stick up. Yep. Okay. Commissioner Hayes, I was just going to ask how deep or how tall the parapit was. Oh, I I couldn't tell you, but it was it's short.

I you know, the building plants haven't been fully developed, but that is the constraint. So, the top the top part of this parapit that you're looking at is our max building height. So, yeah, it's not it's it's tight. The building is is tight overall because, you know, there are certain minimums that you have to have to build a floor and then we're tied into the maximum of the overall building height. Commissioner Dominguez. Yeah. I just want to thank you for putting the Malipai in.

I think it looks f it looks Flagstaff. Yeah. Uh, and I do have a question. In all your renderings, I don't see the utilities. Uh, I that's one of my I when you drive down and all of a sudden you see a bank of meters and gas meters and all that stuff. They're sort of hidden. That would be fantastic. They are hidden. And I'll use this as an example. This is where our backup gener generator sits. Inside these double doors is where all the meters are and the main service.

inside this nook right here and this is because APS requirements is the transformers and then down here is the switch cabinet. So, um these are all screened as best as we're allowed to, but these are certain those elements aren't allowed inside buildings. Um but the one thing to note which I think is kind of fun in my opinion. Um, this alley is a private alley and will be we'll have removable ballards so that APS could get into service stuff if they need to, but otherwise it's a private alley.

And if you'll go to the landscape drawings, this alley actually has a lot of stuff going on inside of it. um from a planting perspective and and see here. Yeah, this kind of gives you a feel for it, but big kind of plaza connecting the garage to the hotel for the uh client entry, sidewalks, landscaping. It's a fairly busy alley considering it's an alley. So, I also see that as an opportunity to do something cool.

I'm not sure what yet because it's just an alley, but it is it's a nice alley for Flagstaff and some of the alleys I've been in. This is This is a nice place to just sit and relax. Absolutely. And it's quiet. Commissioner Hayes. Yes. Can we look again at the drawings that have the micro business, the area with the red blocks? Sure.

And I am very encouraged by the idea that you're going to break that up and have sort of a pedestrian experience because the storefront character of downtown is what is kind of a draw for downtown and that would be for any other business on the other side would sort of not, you know, it could impact them, right? So, uh, how many micro business spaces are you anticipating? Um, can you point out with your cursor like where you think maybe the mural would be?

Um, uh, two, three, four micro businesses. And I I suppose it depends on if one's a food truck versus, you know, if you look inside the creper, I'll keep using that as an example. The actual cooking appliance is about this big and then the rest is just seats. So, could one end be a crepery place and the other end be a hot dog guy? Sure.

Um, we just put the blocks on here to start the discussion with the city of how do we manipulate the landscaping requirements or I would shouldn't say manipulate, work with the landscaping requirements and offset it with um because when we get rid of landscaping, we have to augment it with um, you know, activations like sculptures or other there's other ways to meet the requirements of the landscape buffer.

Um, in the opinion of a lot of people that I've talked to in this town, landscaping doesn't do much for for walkability. It doesn't change people's walkability. It doesn't change the engagement. That's where these micro retails came from. So, and um just a suggestion when it comes to murals, have you thought about something besides just painting?

Like for instance, Tucson did a really great job with um historic photographs to reproduce on tile, which then also don't have to be repainted, but they they look really good. We're we're open for anything. That's where I think the competition, like call it the open competition, would be fun. Come with your idea. What do you think should be up there, and we'll get a panel together, and we'll all vote on it.

I think that's a cool community event that would benefit this this garage, and I think it it draws everybody together. Commissioner Dale. Yes, thank you. Um, I really appreciate this. Back in May, we heard a lot about how the inside of the building was dedicated to Flagstaff, but not much about how the outside was taking into consideration the the environment of downtown. And I think you've done a much better job of helping us understand how you're seeing how this fits into downtown.

Um, I appreciate the inclusion of Alpai Stone. I think the the murals will be a great homage to the to the kinds of artwork we have downtown, especially if you're working with a brick structure. You could have um uh advertisements for businesses the way we find like the one brand a mattress ad in the alley. Or there could be a mural for the indigenous history that would help incorporate some of the walking tour for instance and pull in the the requests of the indigenous commission.

Um, I'm still a little concerned about the scale and the massing. Um, how tall is the parking garage? Parking garage, four and a half stories. So, 48 feet at the top, I believe, is the height. Okay. And what would happen if the hotel was 55 ft instead of 60? Uh, we wouldn't be able to have the same amount of rooms. Okay. I just individually, I think they they they've come a ways and I I think they definitely fit in downtown better.

I think the images of some of the other buildings are helping me. But when you put them next to each other and most of the discussion of other similar masked buildings are not historic and N2 specifically says that they're comparable to historic structures and the ones that you've pictured are the recent hotel, the new county courthouse.

Um, and some buildings that were built in like the 60s and 70s, which while technically historic, most of the buildings I see people go and look at downtown are going to be the the church, the I guess that's not that's on the edge of the overlay. Yeah. Um, the Weatherford, the what's it? The McMillan building, like the the historic buildings. And this just seems so much bigger than those ones.

And so that's that's I think where I'm most stuck with this design because you've got two very big blocky buildings right next to each other that are sort of at the max size of what we see downtown and not the size of the sort of more historic buildings. So I don't know if you can speak to that or if Sure. people on the commission disagree with me, but that's just where I am. So we're working within the confines of the code that was voted on by PNZ and adopted by the city.

um that's what we have to work with and uh that our response meets those codes is that Lauren if it would be helpful as clarification I the commission could request uh that Mr. you know, Mark's look at the renderings and if you have more specific questions about breaking up the the massing um with articulation materials, um again, 60 ft is allowable and as suggested by the design guidelines, the best way to address this is to break it up through materials um and articulation.

And so it that's really the the tool that's there for the commission to point to. So, if we could pull up the renderings if you had specific questions about that.

Yeah, I mean the the hotel I think is looking a lot better, a lot more broken up, a lot smaller, but then you've got this big I don't it might help to see some renderings with a mural on the side of the parking garage so we can see that or in May I asked if there were there was a way to because I was concerned that you just see these buildings floating in space and I was hoping to get some like I think I said on the ground like what does it look like when you're standing you know and then you know looking around and seeing how it's impacting the buildings around it and while the these overview renderings are helping it's not really giving me a sense of what it's like if you're standing at the the you know dark sky or somewhere else downtown.

I I have a quick question while we're looking at these. Could you identify which corner is which, please? Sure. This corner right here, this is Laroo and this is Birch. And then this corner right here, this is actually the alley. So the the hotel, you're not seeing the hotel right here, but we're looking at the birch frontage right here. So when when I was talking about some micro retail, it fits perfectly right there. Fits perfectly right there, and it fits perfectly right there.

That's where we came up with those three red blocks. Um, and to answer your question about the articulation and the scale, um, these these columns right here are structural. Some of these are nonstructural um that were added on to create the articulations that's required to break up that big call it gool log that you see in Phoenix. This is uh this is what was designed to to meet that requirement. One sec. Following along that on the birch and lower corner, what is that building right there?

This right here, it's the exit stair to get out in emergency. It connects connects this stair tower right here and then spits you right out onto the street. Thank you. Okay, Commissioner Hayes. I'm very encouraged by the um you know the inclusion of the micro businesses and the mural and everything.

I think it would be really helpful to see what that would look like potentially even if it's just a placeholder of something a madeup mural or a food truck or something to get an idea because overall this is very large structure. The two structures together are basically I mean they're from Beaver to to Laroo that is going to be um it's going to diminish the other historic buildings in the overlay. Could we consider that as a um yeah, condition of approval?

I was just I was just drawing a blank there because we'd be happy to do that. Um it doesn't change that there would be micro retail there or not. I mean, I get where you're coming from. It would be good to see that, but I'm just uh yeah, where do we go next? Commissioner Dominguez. That little corner right there. That's birch in the alleyway. This one? Yeah. Right there. Yeah. Uh Woodman of the World. Does anybody know Woodman of the World? Okay.

It was a fraternal organization for the mill workers, the lumberjacks, all the people that worked at the sawmill here in Flagstaff. The flag pole in front of the existing building now is dedication plaque that says Woodman of the world. Is there any possibility that that could be salvaged and put in that little corner? I don't see a flag pole. First of all, the plaque itself. Well, uh, it's it's in the base of the of the flag pole that sits on where am I? Beaver. Thank you.

on Beaver right in front of the building that exists now. Oh, from 19 West Birch. You're saying salvage that and if we could just salvage that plaque. Be happy to. I mean, it was I mean, it's it's historical s and I'm sure there's some history with it somehow, but I I think it would be perfect right there. People can go to it. I mean, there could be some history of the mill workers or what have you. Just a reminder, this is where the two transformers sit. So, I would put it more on this face.

So you walk right past it on the streetscape. I'd be happy to do that. It would be part of the walking tour. Absolutely. Thank you so much. Y Commissioner Dale, is there going to be parking on top of the garage? The top floor has partial parking. So to to meet the requirements of um well just everything, there's a half floor, call it, up here that stops. And you can actually see it a little bit better. You know what? Maybe it is in here. You can see it right here.

So, on the south elevation when we're sitting in the alley between us and the chocolate shop, this is a a half a partial parked. So the south west corner of the garage itself has a partial that's why it's called four and a half stories. Okay. But no one is actually parking on the roof. Yeah. You you you you can see right here. This is kind of your drive path. Um roughly speaking. So your car headlights the crash barrier is blocking the car itself. But there is parking up there.

You have no cover then? No. Okay. I was just thinking, what if it were shorter and smaller? [laughter] Yeah, but it looks like that's the difficulties of a of a parking garage. There's there's maximum slopes, there's minimum slopes, there's cross slopes, there's parking on ramps, not on ramps. It's they're actually pretty complicated. It's just so ugly. And it's not cuz you guys didn't try. You did. It's just parking garages aren't nice looking buildings.

And it's just so big and in the middle of downtown. And it's so then it feels bigger than it is. Like the the hotel is now looking smaller than it did two months ago just because of the way you've helped break it up. Yeah. But the parking garage looks so big. You know, the ironic part is is the parking garage is smaller than the hotel. So, yeah. I mean, I wish we didn't have cars either, but this is uh society that we live in. Okay. So, I'm going to bring up some things.

Um this is Chair Westimer. So um I am concerned about N2 because it says that they subdivide the surface in a portion similar in scale to historic facades varying setbacks reforms and materials and it really those are some pretty pretty large planes. I don't know if you can break them up more but they're not similar to historic buildings. Historic buildings actually don't have these setbacks and offsets. Oh, I'm referring to like vertical.

So, when you have four of those three pane, four pane windows, that's quite a big span. That's what I'm thinking of. That's not similar to historic how wide the historic buildings are. Sure. Um the these are actually recessed patios up here and that's a recessed uh sky deck call it. Um, this is actually an overhang. So, there is a little bit of a recess there to kind of work your way up the building as you go.

Um, and then there is these u fascia elements that pop out along here that further setbacks at the top floor. Further setbacks at the top floor. Building kind of birthday cakes if you if you I don't really see that, but how much is it birthday caking? It's a rendering. But you see this column right here? This goes straight up the building. This is actually an overhang.

So at the ground floor, you actually have an overhang of sorts to get to the first floor of hotel rooms three floors up and then another step back up here which is a ledge um to the final floor. So is it really a step back or is it that there is a protruding line that comes out? Little of both. Um so yes, I mean the the structure is what it is. It is vertical but there's ins and outs at each window. um these little recesses here.

The brick returns to the window much like a recessed window would be in a historic building. And then like I said, these patios are are well set back. So, how deep are those recesses? Um depends on which one. You know, these recesses, I want to say they're four to six inches going off of memory. This is a full-on patio up here, so you got eight eight feet, six eight feet. Um the top floor deck is fully recessed, so that's got to be at least 15 feet.

So, um, there is some color theory that could be applied here. Light colors move forward and darker colors move back. So, if you were to switch and bring that lighter color that you have on the top floor to the second floor and use dark colors to the top, it would help to minimize visually. You can see that with the dark section, which I'm not sure what that is. I hope you'll tell me or tell us.

But anyway, if you were to switch those, you can tell looking at that that that dark area actually moves back and that light area moves forward and makes the building look taller and bigger. So, something to consider if we're worried about the massing, that would help a lot.

just add if you're talking about changing the brick material with the stucco at the top then I think it would no longer meet the design guidelines because it wouldn't we wouldn't have enough of a primary material and the secondary material would be too great. So it wouldn't meet the architectural design standards or the design guidelines. Is that am I understanding you to switch the stucco with a brick?

I would clarify that the stucco would be just the second floor and then there would be three floors of brick and that would help to make the top portion darker and it would not loom would not feel as big if you give it a try with your computer. I don't know how you do that magic but give it a try and you'll see what I mean. And that dark section pretty much shows it that it moves back and the light colored areas are much more bold than the dark. Does that make sense?

It would also tie into the Maui better. And I love the idea of putting Malpai on the column, but there are too many rock climbers for that to be said. Just be honest about it. So, are you are you proposing making that a condition of approval? I'm asking if you would consider that in order to meet some of the um and to some of the end conditions. What I'm trying to avoid is in May we were set on a task with three things to red address. We tried to address them.

If you're saying that doing that would address the N2, we absolutely could look at that. But what I don't want to do is come back or or submit something for review and then we change it again. So that I'm just trying to understand where the goalpost is. Um I I can't answer that. I mean, you know, this is a huge project and very difficult to absorb in four days. And so um I don't think that I got the chance to say this before.

I've seen this all along ever since I saw this I don't know at the DBA office two years ago or three years ago. So I have noticed this but now is my opportunity with this certificate of appropriateness to bring this up. So um it's something I think that would help to with the massing and people would be happier if the building were to appear smaller. So that's why I'm bring I'm not going I'm not going to say oh I don't like it put it back. I guarantee you I won't do that. Okay.

[laughter] So, I'm also wondering, is that okay? Does that all make sense to you? Uh, it does. Okay. So, the other thing I'm wondering about the area that is dark, what is that? This up here? Yes. Uh, that is I believe that's Hardy painted Hardy. And then this is a a steel trellis. Is that not Is that rooms? What's the purpose in having a dark area? This This is the This is a bar and restaurant up here. this corner from all the way over to here is is uh restaurant and bar open to the public.

Open to the public. So um no I I think that you know we sent something to the indigenous commission. I think something needs to be sent here to the appropriate city commission or department to evaluate the sound accumulation of having a bar 50 ft in the air.

There are neighborhoods surrounding this area and I live in one that's I don't know about a mile away and I hear downtown and then there's North Laroo and they hear I've heard the bars up there just biking through and I think that sound that high in the air in the air I would like the city to assess what that's going to do to the livability of downtown because the city want and DBA want more residents residences downtown, but if you put more sound up above, um the way it's been handled lately is with complaints.

And I would prefer we not set people up to complain, but we do what needs to be done. I don't know if architecturally you can do something, but we have to assess the impact of sound. Just add, we do have to focus on the specific design guidelines in the design handbook and and may be a valid concern.

And I realize you're you're asking the city outside the scope of certificate of appropriateness and this meeting to consider that, but the commission does not have a tool in the design handbook to to con condition that apart from just saying this as a statement. Commissioner, if it helps. Um, downtown bars are open till 2. This particular one will be shutting down at midnight. Okay, let's see what were some of my other comments. Hold on for a minute, please.

Here, can I ask a question quickly too about the area? Uh, while we're on it, is there a reason you guys went with Stuckco instead of continuing the brick on which part? Uh, top story just because so many the the buildings downtown that are brick are brick all the way up, but you've got this top story of white stucco. Um, no particular reason at all. We could change it. I Yeah. Are you talking about this whole white section on the top floor? Yeah. Changing it to all brick. Yeah.

I just wondered why you went with Stuckco instead of brick. Um because we're supposed to have primary and secondary materials and we had to break it up. That's part of the design guideline as well. You have to have more than two and the the like stucco columns and the the horizontal lines along the window don't count as calculation wise. That's kind of where the constraint is. Um, yeah.

I mean, if if it solves the the problem on this elevation to add brick to the top floor and eliminate that white on the top floor, we could do that. But I don't know how calculation wise that would affect things. You have two materials in that you have the Malpai, [clears throat] excuse me, and the brick. I'm not saying I would remove that because it does add interest. I would just move it to the second floor. But um you already have two materials. So I think it's something to consider.

Yeah, it it sounds I think you know percentage- wise it could be fine, but Commissioner Dale's suggestion is um counter to Chair Westimer's suggestion and the materials and and again one of the arguments for why the massing is broken up is the use of different materials. And I think that yeah could create an additional issue is if it's all brick it will inevitably look bigger.

Um but yeah I was just curious it might be an option too if you didn't want to consider swapping the brick and the stucco. What if could you make the stucco black? Like that would make it darker on the top too and that might it would blend in more with the colors on the bar and maybe make the top floor seem more uniform. I don't know. We could paint it any color you'd like as long as it's allowable. Bright green blue like muted colors is all I've been told. Correct.

The design guidelines call for using earth tones um with a certain light reflective value. So I do think all black probably um would not meet the design guidelines probably your black stuck out just yeah it it you know us as an accent would meet those but um not as a for a greater percentage. Commissioner Hayes what about like like chocolate brown sort of instead of black and then the the uh rooftop rooftop uh bar cafe also that color.

So, I want to be clear just to clarify this because I'm looking at the pallet right now. I believe this top band is all limestone, which is an off-white, so tannanish white like that. Um, to me, that's a good muted earth tone. Personally having even though I understand where you're coming from, Commissioner about the uh feeling of this being uh overbearing, I I think an a softer limestone up there actually looks really good. Personally, I I'm to clarify.

I'm not saying it doesn't make the building look good. I'm saying the building looks larger with a light color on the top floor. If the light color were to come down to the second floor, it would not emphasize the height as much as that does because the N, you know, which whichever end category that is, it's either two or five or three. Um, it does say that it should um mix be compatible with other historic buildings in the area.

And uh I think that that in some of the information we received some of the comparables were not historic buildings and they you know and I think that that intent was for them to be historic buildings that they're compared with. So that was a suggestion to make the building appear less massive and shorter. We'd be happy to do that if that's a condition. Commissioner Hayes. So, I'm trying to picture with the limestone.

It looks completely smooth there, but is it like kaab limestone that's not a flat surface, but somewhat textured? I can't tell from the, you know, it's a 16 by 24 tile, per se. It's a ver veneered natural limestone um with a distressed finish like what's on the Marriott? I couldn't I don't know what's on the Marriott, what they picked.

I I know it's far too late for this meeting, but I actually um spend a lot of time reviewing construction documents and with engineers and architects and looking at renderings and they generally bring multiple um images of possibilities and uh usually a sample board of the material. So, I mean just advice for future um then we usually sit down with cultural resource specialists and pick what's appropriate. Okay. Okay.

Any more questions for the applicant or should we move to hear from the public? We have one card. Okay. So, let's move to the public comment. We have one card from my Herman. Please come up. You have three minutes. Although I think five is better, but three. Hi, I sent a comment late this afternoon. I brought some printed ones. Oh, I'm sorry. Is that better? I I sent a comment late this afternoon with a letter from Aspie Watkins and Diesel. Um, did everyone get that?

Do people need written copies of it? Sure. So, uh, first I want to say I'm, uh, the FTBA, the Downtown Business Alliance, which I'm I'm just speaking as an individual, but I am a member, um, is organizing a regional conference this week, uh, with national speakers. So I think there's great interest in this project uh by many members of the FDBA but there's a huge conflict. Uh so there would be more people here otherwise. Um I'm really glad to see the red blocks outlining the micro retail.

This is the first time I saw that map. I was part of some of the early discussions on it and that's uh I consider that real progress. Um, and I want to spend sort of the rest of my two minutes talking about the future and not so much this project. My sense is that um when this project first appeared, uh, city staff advised that 60 feet was allowable. And if you give somebody advice like that for two years, you kind of have to live with it.

That said, when I read guideline N2, it's clear to me that you can mitigate for width based on variation. It's not so clear to me that you can mitigate for height. The It's real clear that it's saying the historic buildings are two to four stories. I actually think that's an exaggeration. [clears throat] If you did your drone shot from where um the historic um train depot is, mostly it'd be one story with some two and a couple buildings like the Monav Vista that are higher.

Uh so my worry is if somebody wanted to go to late for the train where that is that critical block of Aspen in San Francisco and tear down that building and build this hotel, the parking would have to be elsewhere. Could you tear down the whole facade? Would you have to do a recess on the upper stories? Uh those are good mitigation techniques to keep a facade in place and to move the facade back on uh on upper stories.

There are other mitigation techniques and and I think N2 actually gives you some control on on height particularly in critical areas. So I it's also clear to me that this project came to you very late and that there was a lot of advice given to the applicant beforehand that we have to live with. Uh so um please review my written thing. I really look forward to a future discussion and if there are questions I'll try. Thank you Mr.

Herman and thank you everyone who sent letters because we need public participation. Thank you. I guess that's the end of public comment. So now we go. Would the applicant like to respond? We actually had a lot of conversation before, but you could have five minutes if you'd like to respond to anything now. I don't believe so other than just restating the facts that we we are meeting the code we're we're mandated by.

We've done as many mitigation efforts as as there is within the code to meet the requirements. Um and I really think that the the collaboration with the city and and the DBA was was important and uh will provide a true benefit to this overall project. So, I hope you guys will consider this uh appropriateness and the certificate and approve it as we move forward. Thank you. Staff, do you have any other comments? We're following the council's rules of procedure. You get five minutes.

Yeah, happy to address any any specific questions that you had about the the written or the oral public comment, but I think we we've we've covered a lot of the ground um about the height limitation. Is anyone thinking and needs a couple more minutes to think before you have a question for staff? No. I have a question for staff.

[laughter] Um, you've referenced a lot of code as did the applicants representative, but we were never in on hearing what codes were used to get it through concept or what you're looking at for site because that helps us understand where we are and what we're looking at. It would be nice to have a presentation to this commission to help us understand how this project has progressed through time, where it is now, what codes it's met. Sure.

I I would say that we did this presentation um our current planning manager did the presentation on this topic um and specifically in advance of this project last fall where she went through all of the types of development applications and our architectural design standards and how the you know so she explained what we review in concept plan how um staff review that what we're looking at how um the difference between that and site plan I'm happy to resend um that presentation of course it's also recorded and we can, you know, revisit with additional training as needed.

I know some commissioners are new and may not um have been here for that, but but last fall we did specifically have that training at the request of the commission um because of this project. So, thank you for that. I'm I'm speaking specifically to this project because I know it's gone through a number of iterations that are mentioned in your staff report of substantive comments and things that went back and forth with the applicant.

I'm just interested to know the evolution of what they brought to you in the beginning, what the code required, how it's evolved over time so we can understand what we're looking at specifically with this. That's what I'm I think would be really helpful for us to evaluate what we're looking at because there's a lot of experience in code that goes into where we are right now. And I think it would be good to know what happened.

Um and I will say, you know, it this is reflective of what the city is currently reviewing right now. Um that at the concept plan, we do not review architectural renderings. we were just looking at a site plan. So there is no design guideline review at that stage. Um which is why the commission does not review it at that stage. Um I do as the you know staff um who reviews for heritage preservation. Um so the site plan um has I again it's detailed in the staff report.

Um, and I discussed also in my staff report a little bit some of in my presentation some of the changes um, such as the architectural design standards. Um, and we discussed the percentages for the primary and secondary materials, but I believe this the date of the plans you're looking at is the second um, as submitted to you first in May. I believe that was the same date as what staff reviewed in the second site plan submittal. Um it was submitted at the same time.

So basically um based on past HPC recommendation, HPC has asked staff in the past not to bring a site plan to you for certificate of appropriateness until the city staff has had one round of substantive comment and that is what happened here. So the city had one round of substantive comment on the site plan. um they revised based on staff comments and then that was what was brought to you in May.

Um and now it's been updated again based on additional staff comments and your comments and that's where we're at. Um happy to provide more detail if it relates to, you know, getting back to approving the certificate of appropriateness. Otherwise, if we need additional training um on, you know, the types of things that go into staff review, happy to do that at another time.

Commissioner Hayes, I have a question that has to do with the um submitt from the applicant about how their um design meets the design guidelines and why they don't actually follow the design guideline book. For one, um nine or N9 in the design guidelines is be aware of flood plane regulations. The applicant lists N9 parking parking integration. The project provides 200 parking stalls.

Why are they not in I'd say about 75% of them do not match the design guidelines, but lists that as a reference. Why are they like that? Sounds like a question for the applicant. And again, this they prepared those materials and submitted them um for for the packet. Um do you have specific questions about their analysis for them or just a general question? And it sounds like there was a typo in their application and their numbers were off.

I um made a table of them actually and I went through them for what's in the design guideline. I'd say they're just not a few off. They're almost all off. They actually don't address the um that specific guideline. And so I'm like I I I went to go look to see maybe did they download, you know, an older design guideline book, but this was 97. This is the one on the city page. Um for instance um N1 align the facade of the new building with the established setbacks of the area.

Compatibility with context was their listing. N2 new building should appear similar in mass and scale with historic structures in the area. N2 from the applicant site pedestrian orientated design. I I'm don't understand how that addresses that actual provision.

And I I apologize and that again it sounds like there are typos and and and that um has made your review more difficult, but are there specific things you have questions about with the design guideline that they need to address um in order to move forward with the review? It sounds like this is I understand it's frustrating that maybe the numbers don't match the the guidelines um in their analysis, but is there anything you know substantive that is preventing us from moving forward with this?

I I do feel like if the request here is that they just correct this in their application materials, that still isn't getting to the point of the certificate of appropriateness review. Well, it it's most of them. Um, you know, like N4 in the guidelines, it says use roof forms that match those used historically. The applicant puts you N4 building mass and articulation.

I'm I'm It's hard to see if they're meeting the design guidelines when they're not even referencing them and they're they're it's I made a table in no time at all putting them together. So, are you asking that you need the applicant to do more analysis? um of all of these in order for you to approve.

They are everyone is I did go through everyone in the staff report and analyze each of the applicable design guidelines individually um as this the staff analysis of this if more analysis is requested by the applicant. Yes, Alicia, but I think she's asking are there any that you wanted them to address that they're not addressing? There might be typos and they might have some extra ones or incorrectly labeled ones, but are there any in here that you wanted them to address that they didn't?

I think just Lauren is looking for something to, you know, hang a hat on to give feedback. So that was Commissioner Dale. Commissioner Hayes. Yeah. and two new buildings should appear similar in mass and scale with historic structures in the area. That's not actually listed in their on their list and that's just the first one.

So, um if I may interject, I believe we went through everything in the May meeting, whittleled it down with the city attorney as to what the list was that was deficient or that you had questions on. If those were not addressed at that time, that would have been a great time for us to fix what she's referencing because the flood plane issue, our building is built up out of the flood plane. We have to do that.

Um, I mean, I I I can't speak to the labeling issues, but when we went through this in May, that was the specific reason why we went through it in May is what about the whole list did we not have enough information on? What should we come back with? And that's what we've done. And so I'm really um a little bit confused as to why we went through that in May in in a 4 and a half hour session and now here we are in July and we're bringing it back up. We went through it for 4 and a half hours.

Yes, it was. Yes, it was in May. Yes. No. May of 26. We went through each one of these things and we said we have concerns with N2 and N5 and that is what we have been talking about again here today and so I think the question is what is Alicia concerned about if it's typos that's not necessarily helpful. I don't think we can deny a certificate of appropriateness because they've mislabeled something if they have addressed the issue at hand.

So if I think there is if there is a continued concern that you don't think in this report they have addressed N2 or N5 then we can talk about that but I don't think you can say I'm rejecting the certificate of appropriateness because you have called N9 something different than it is and we didn't even bring up N9 as a problem that we had with the design. Does that make sense? It does. I was just wondering why they were that was submitted like that because there's a long list of them.

Basically N1 through N1 through N9 for instance is in the applicant submitt but they're completely labeled different. So I was asking why human error. That's my best answer. I couldn't couldn't tell you. It's been a year of going back and forth on this. So I can't explain that other than we made a mistake. I just have a clarifying question. Commissioner Stevens, thank you. I just have a clarifying question.

Is um are you looking um Commissioner Hayes maybe at the original submitted list um and calling that out? Um that confused me a little bit too. You mean the list that we asked for in May that you mean of the specific ones? Because I'm looking at the guidelines.

I'm looking at the design book guidelines and then I'm looking at the applicants um the applicant's use of the design guidelines and I had to kind of make a table to figure out what they're talking about because they're they're not the same. They're not what's in the design guidelines. It just seems to be that um that was the original submitted materials and then that was gone through in the main meeting and clarified it sounds like.

So, I think they're just old materials is what I've determined. That is correct. We're talking about the the materials you had for review in the May meeting and they have submitted additional updated materials um in the packet. So, I think to Commissioner Steven's point, um we've in some ways moved past that as these comments were not made in May um as something that they were asked to correct. So they did not change that in their revised submitt. Okay.

So I I just want to come back to my point about understanding how we got here because if I look at N1, it says building fronts typically align at the sidewalk downtown. This distinguishes the area from suburban auto blah blah blah. So this project was asked by the city in an through concept or site plan to move it back five feet. That's the kind of thing we need to understand because other downtown buildings don't do that. So how did we get to that?

I mean it it might create a place for vitality and walkability. So I'm not saying it's a good or a bad thing. I'm just saying how did we get to this when no other downtown building has a 5-ft setback? It is addressed in my staff report, this one and the one in May about the landscape buffer requirements that are in code and how they set it as close as possible um to the sidewalk based on the code requirements.

So, how do these two design handbook which we're supposed to use and the code work together? Can we get an explanation of this please? And and I would say I mean essentially this is how they work together. The code has been updated since the design handbook in 1997. Um and so in some ways some of the code updates um really now take precedent over the design handbook. Um, and again, this was analyzed in the staff report in May.

It was not identified as something the commission wanted changed or to see additional information on N1. So I and I I understand there are some discrepancies there, but again, maybe this is a area for additional training and and discussion of how to update those two, but it it sounded like N1 and the setbacks is not an issue in the meeting. And in fact, the commission seems supportive of the micro retail that they are putting in that setback area.

So I don't want to lose focus of that and and ask the applicant to, you know, request a waiver of our city landscaping requirements um when it doesn't seem like the commission is supportive of that. Anyone have anything else they'd like to ask or say? Jesse Dominguez, please. Commissioner Dominguez, I'd just like to apologize to the applicant, to city staff, and to us, and everybody involved. I think we've all had a big learning process here. And uh thanks for sticking it out.

But I think I think it's time to move on. It's uh whatever's in the best interest of Flagstaff. And I think what we need to call for the question. Sorry, we need to call for a motion. Is that what you said? Does anyone want to make a motion? If I may, this is Sterling Solomon, the city attorney. Um the public hearing has not been closed yet and um that would need to happen before any motions or additional deliberations occur. Thank you. Sorry about that. Nope, don't be sorry.

Thank you for that reminder. Okay, so the public hearing has ended and we are moving on to um commission deliberation. Um we've had a lot of questions to staff and applicants. So, the public hearing has ended and now we can open the floor for a miss a motion from a commissioner. I don't know if I'm ready for a motion, but it would be nice to It was nice at the city council meeting when they went around and talked about what they had sort of summarized out of it. So, I'm going to try to do that.

I think that these new designs have definitely answered my concerns about the N5 uh materials. I again appreciate the incorporation of Malpai stone. Um, I love the idea of the murals. Um, I'm still not necessarily sold that these fit with the massing of historic buildings.

I think that you have proven that there are recent buildings uh that are of similar mass and size, but I don't know that I am I don't know that you have shown that historic buildings um in the overlay have similar mass and size.

And um I think seeing how they might look with the um inset retail spaces with murals on that the the big front facade of the um parking garage potentially um renderings of um different material colors at the top would I'm just such a visual person that it would really help me to see what it would look like and that's kind of where I'm sitting with two, Commissioner Hayes. Um, I I feel like they have um demonstrated enough for building materials are similar employed historically.

I would like to see some different renderings. I just um I'm not satisfied that N2 has been met. I would like to see some other um ways in which it, you know, can see the micro space, see something of what that would look like, an example of that, a rendering of the elevation from from Laroo and Birch of what that breakup could look like.

Um we're talking about basically from from Beaver to Laroo, this is going to be a massive even though it's two different buildings, it's going to be like one big construction. And we have to be very thoughtful of what's going to be in Flagstaff for a really long time. That's sort of why we are on this uh commission to review the design guidelines because everyone in Flagstaff is going to live with it for probably 50 70 years.

Commissioner Overman, I agree with Commissioner Dale and Commissioner Hayes that in they the applicant has satisfied in five. I do appreciate the greater use of mount pie stone uh especially on the bottom floor and I do appreciate the responses of why the column and that brick wall weren't used as mount pie stone. I do appreciate that greatly.

Um, regarding IN2, I think the I don't mind I wouldn't mind seeing other renderings as Commissioner Dale and Commissioner Hayes have requested regarding murals or micro retail. I think that'll give a better picture of the mass and scale of this building. Uh and also like a view from the the ground I think will also help greatly uh just to get an idea of the scale of it because again these are just images and it's hard to put in perspective. Thank you Commissioner Stevens.

A lot of the language we use um in archaeology, historic preservation, um it can be really vague and then in historic preservation like what we're doing now, it gets very specific. And so this has been um a really interesting experience. Um I think we have um tested our process and the codes and and I think we've all learned some things. Um I appreciate everything I've learned here tonight. Um, I would not mind seeing photos or renderings of what that could look like.

Um, I don't feel like it's a condition that I need to have. Um, at some point it would be nice to see. Um, I think that the interesting thing about, uh, downtown Flagstaff is the, you know, there's not one particular time period represented. It's a very long time period that's represented. And with thoughtful design, you know, in 50 or 70 years, this building can be one of them potentially. Um, so I just uh thank you for everybody and all the thoughts here this evening.

I'm getting Commissioner Dominguez. Well, I I just think that we're kicking the can down the road a little bit. I I feel that that the applicant has done their due diligence. I feel that they've tried. They really have tried. [panting] They We didn't save the building. I mean, and and it it was significant, but I think it's time to move on to the next step. Um, and I think we're all learning from this process. I mean, we can I think we're we're all looking the at the process.

I think the process didn't work. Um, it's like we put the card in front of the horse. Uh we've done a lot of back and forth and I know everybody's got the best interest of the city of Flagstaff and the citizens. The citizens. Uh Murray, uh I appreciate your comments. Are we setting a precedence with this building? I don't know, but I think that all, you know, are we going to ask the applicant to come back next month? I don't know. Thank you. So, I guess it's my turn.

Um, I appreciate all the work that you've put into this. You I know for a fact that you've been working on this for couple of three years now. Um, back and forth. I don't know if that's typical for other projects you've done, but I appreciate that you've worked with the city and now you're working with us. Um, I would suggest that you look at a way that they activated the sidewalk outside the Grove in Asheville, North Carolina. It's really attractive and very successful.

So, you might consider looking at what other places have done to activate on the outside. And um I think if it ends up being trucks that come across a sidewalk, that's not the best. Um, I know that the crepe place doesn't do that. It's built in, but bringing trucks across the sidewalk, I think, would not be great. Um, I wish I could have seen these in context. You can do a lot of things with computers.

Don't ask me how, but people can, but to have seen the surrounding buildings would have been helpful um to have done that. And I appreciate your willingness to work with the DBA and to listen to people and to activate it because Laroo Street is one of our most beloved streets and um it will be very helpful to have activated space there. Um I would I really do think that the colors have to be switched to help with that contextual and to um to help with that massing problem.

So, I think that's all I have to say. If you don't mind, I wouldn't mind at least saying something before it goes to a vote. Um, I understand it's been a very difficult process for everyone. I wear hearing aids, so it sounds like I'm yelling when I talk loud. I'm sorry. I get that from everybody and and I don't want to feel like I'm yelling. Um, it's been a difficult process for everyone. Um, I never dreamed I'd have to go to the city council to try and uh override your vote.

I felt bad about doing that. Um, it's obvious, I think, to all of us here that at least to myself, I followed every code, every step, everything all along the way that the city that the city has laid out to me. Obviously, the city and the historic preservation comm community commun committee commission need to get together and redefine their process going forward. I understand that. I think that's apparent to everyone, but um we all learned something from this.

We I think we have a great building. I appreciate your comments. We're working to you know, we have code requires um planning requires 5 foot landscaping. We're working with them to try and get some business along the side. Um, everyone says, "Well, is it walkable?" Well, if you park your car there, you're going to walk. You're going to walk across the street. I sit at the old in the alley there and I see people walking down the alley.

There's going to be a brand new alley that goes north south that goes all the way from the mall all the way down to uh to the other hotel down there. On the other side, you got Dark Sky Brewery. our customers are going to come out and go over to that place. Our restaurant, our coffee shop, our bar, they're open to all the public. So, that's adding retail. If we get when we get some more micro brewery, we'll we'll get some murals. I I can't tell you exactly what they're going to be.

That's going to take a while. I don't want this project to continue to keep getting held up for what's the design of the mirror like, what's the design of that space? I can guarantee you that we'll do that kind of stuff. That's the kind of person I am. So, I think uh like I said, I think we follow all the codes. I hope that all of us can just put this to bed and move forward. That gives you more time to work with the city, revise the code, revise the process.

Uh sorry that I'm the one that had to bring that forward, but that's the way it is. I've stuck through this because I think it's a great project. I think it's, you know, it's a great, the old project that was there, the parking garage was eight stories. I bought an extra lot so we could make it smaller. I've done things like that to help out to make this project fit into the city to help Massing with everything.

So, you may not know when I bought the project, there was the hotel and eightstory parking garage, like I said, and it was an improved concept plan. So, that's where I started from. And that's how it came about. And so that it's progressed to this now with various different steps on demolitions, on cultural studies, on all kinds of things. It's been a process, but uh thank you for your time and effort and hopefully we can all move forward. Mr.

Okonnell, thank you for the clarification about the 8 foot that you originally came with and bringing it down. That's the kind of information that had we had that all along, we would have been informed. That's what I'm trying to get across about um telling us about the other parts of the code that were addressed so that we understand how we got to where we are. So, thank you for that information.

Well, every time we've every time we've had a meeting, Lauren's expressly written out where we met the code. So, to me, it's been very explainable. I h I have to understand the code so I know what we have to do. Architects, everyone that's worked on this project reads the city codes. So that's what we go by. That's our guideline as the current codes that are in place. I don't know what else to tell you, but I'm just thanking you. I'm just thanking you. All right. You're welcome.

It's hard to hear you. Does anyone want to do a motion? I guess my question is it sounds like we are in agreement that this is moving forward in some way or another that we're not going to deny it. I think the question is do we approve it or do we want to see renderings and that I guess is going to be the question or yes Lauren and with the renderings just a point of clarification um as Mr. Okonnell mentioned they will not have specific murals or specific micro retail.

So there would only be con conceptual and subject to change. So what you would see in those renderings may not be what it ends up looking like. So just something for the commission to consider um if you you know how you what level of detail you need um to give them and to know that if you require that and that's what you approve it on, it is still subject to change. Yes.

Uh, and Duffy had also mentioned some renderings changing the color scheme here, which is something we asked for one of the downtown houses uh at some point and they that actually did make the building look quite a lot smaller when they put the darker colors up on top. So, it's not just I want to know exactly what mural, you know what I mean? It's just how does that help break up the space to help with concerns we have over N2 massing?

But it also sounds like some people um trust the the designers to know that that's going to do that and don't necessarily need to see the vering. So I guess that that's my question is do we want to see this again um or [clears throat] in August or no? And how does that impact the motion that we make? Commissioner Hayes, I was just going to ask Lauren to pull up again um the recommended motions so we can look them over, but you I think that that's up to you. Yes, you can approve with condition.

So this could be you can approve it, you can approve with a condition. So that could be the condition is that you know you would like those updated renderings to be provided to you. Well, and some of these things are going to be further down the road because they still need to demolish a building and construct a building and all that kind of stuff. So, I mean, we could approve and then they could get started on some of that stuff and then bring back building material colors and things like that.

Yes. Later. Um, right. Yes. The architect is nodding. Right. Yes. So [laughter] the contractor is nodding yes. So, Commissioner Hayes. So my question is what exactly is the conditions of approval that we um are involved in the discussion of what's appropriate for like the selection of colors and things to help with the masking and scale issue. And I really would like to see the micro business conception ideas how they're going to do that.

And and I realize that's something that's sort of they're looking at later. And so that they're going to have to, you know, probably explore some ideas. So, um, let me explain to me or to us what exactly comes with the condition. Do we just be informed or do we get to review anything? What is a condition of approval? And um, you you do both regularly. Um, so it that's up to you. So you can have it be a condition um for something that has to come back to you for review and approval.

Um it can just be something that you're informed. Um often times you know you ask for changes to reports and then you just want to receive them uh to note that it had happened. Um it you can have it be something that's submitted you know to me and I review. Those are yeah all up to you to decide. Commissioner Stevens.

So, a commit um a condition of approval could be something like approved with um the switching of the colors to be brought back potentially for approval, but the renderings to be brought back as they're developed for information purposes. So, that's one idea. Commissioner Hayes. And then they for they could move forward in the process and work on that and they'll just agendaize that and come back to another meeting and have that discussion with us. Yes.

If if you're asking for them to come back for approval. I think Commissioner Dominguez also has the condition that the plaque be incorporated into the plans in some way that it be salvaged and incorporated. Correct. It was just a request. If they I mean if they don't want to do it, they don't want to do it. But I think it's part of history that is sitting in front of that building that we are the historic preservation commission. Correct.

So the woodman of the world is real important because my dad was a woodman of the world. He worked at the sawmill 1917 and retired in 1965. Died two days later after retired. So to me, Woodman of the world, no, who's Woodman of the world? It was a fraternal order of all these sawmill workers. And it doesn't have to be a condition. I just hope that it gets incorporated. It's part of history. It's part of Flagstaff. I mean, Flagstaff was built on pine trees.

They cut a whole bunch of them down and they're all over the world, believe it or not. 2x4s. Some of them are in my house, too. But anyways, I'm going to start rambling on and I I'm sorry about that, but I just hope that Thank you, Commissioner Dominguez.

And as it's not related to the specific design guidelines and and since you've stated you were okay with it just being an informal commitment, it would probably best to not have it as a condition of approval as it's not related to the specific design guidelines in this case. And I have a question. So if there's a condition based on color, one person likes one color, another person likes another color, another person likes the color. How many times are I going to come back with different colors?

And you know, I have an architect that chooses the colors. I have designers that choose the colors. I have to get the building once you approve it approved through Hilton's. So, it's I just don't want to have to come back 15 times for the color. Is it one time? Is it twice? That has never happened. I think in the past we have requested new colors and the next time we're like, "Hey, that looks great." I don't think we've ever debated about colors. Maybe one point of clarification.

I don't think we're actually talking about paint colors. We were just talking about swip swapping the limestone with the brick. So, there would be no paint color selection. It's just if and that really I don't you may want to see it but I if if you are willing to make that change there is no color to approve. It's just straight swapping the top course for the second story course with limestone and I make that swap and I don't like it. You like it. I guess I live with it.

Is that what you're telling me? [laughter] Well, we're trying to address the massing and scale as is in the handbook and that was one idea. Yeah, I understand massing and scale. I'm sure you do. It's like um another thing you don't probably know about me. I'm a master of fine art, so I understand colors. I understand massing. I understand forms and things, all kinds of things. So, I just don't want to get hung up in a continuous loop on coming back with all these different things.

That's all I'm trying to say. I can understand if you'd like to see some renderings that's swapped. If that's part of your condition, then I understand that. But I don't want to get in a continuous loop. That's what I'm trying to say here. So, thank you.

I I just wanted to kind of summarize what I'm hearing right here is the approval with conditions is more of a um we're approved to move forward through site plan, which is our next step to get the site plan approval, continue on with the building uh permit review while we address these items that we're discussing. That to me is very reasonable and very understandable that you would want to see these elevations. At this point, we can't change the building is what I'm saying.

So, um, we would be happy to take an approval with conditions understanding this would release our site plan. That's that's what we're really driving at because there are so many steps behind tonight to even get the building up and and getting the building up and putting these finished materials on is way down the road. So, I think we can address all these items between now and then. Does that seem reasonable to everybody? That's that's what I'm hearing. I think so. They're all looking to me.

I think so. I'm in a chair. [laughter] Commissioner Overman, did you have something? Okay, cool. Anyone else want to Okay, Commissioner Stevens. Yes. It's just the swapping of those colors to see if that addresses Commissioner Wesheimer's concern about scale and massing and and how that might be addressed by it. So, it was really limited. Yeah. And it was the materials that have integrated colors in them, not the colors. No paint. No paint. Okay. Okay. Commissioner Overman.

Um, so I just want to um I guess this is a question to the other commissioners and maybe Lauren. Um, based on everything that we're hearing with the condition of approval, is that just are we as a commission wanting to see that stuff come back to us or do we just want to have it sent to Lauren for approval? So, um, what Commissioner Dale said is she thinks we want to see it. [laughter] you are. Okay.

Commissioner Stevens, just to clarify, like it would come back the material swap and it would be we would give input and it would either change or not, but it's not going to like hold anything up. So that's how I hear it. Mr. Mark said the thumbs up. That's down the road. Just one question about that. Is it then at the we I have to come back at another meeting. Can it come back? It's to you email to look at and you guys can vote on it. Send it.

I'm just wondering what the how those conditions are going to be met if I have to come back to another meeting or if they can be met in whatever you want to call it amongst yourselves without having to keep attending meetings. I really appreciate that you came in person. You don't live here and it's a commitment and I appreciate that. So I think uh staff can tell us if we can do this by electronically or not. I I think um you can join Sterling or Christina.

The only reason why is because you'll be taking a vote. It sounds like you're going to be taking a vote of whether you it's a thumbs up or or not. And so I I don't know if we can do that through an electric meeting and I don't or um sorry a virtual but he could attend virtually. He could come on team. Oh yes. Sorry. I thought you were asking if you could do a vote via email. I think that was one of the questions I heard. Yes, that was his question. Okay.

But in order is clarifying that he doesn't need to come to the meetings. Mr. Okonnell, right? And I I don't think so because it would have to be agendaized and in the public forum. Um we we'd have to, you know, have the the quorum. Um and because of that, it couldn't be something that could just be done if you want to see it to vote on the item. It does have to be, you know, done in the public forum and agendaized at a meeting.

So yes, it could be that it's submitted and the applicant isn't required to come. Um, but that would it would still require being agendaized in a future meeting. That is correct. This is Sterling. That is correct. Yeah, I've appreciated you coming to all these meetings. We'll have applications and they don't show up. We've had applications for like grants and they don't come and we give them money. So, [laughter] I I really appreciate your dedication to being here for all these.

So, do does anyone want to put together a motion? Okay. Well, so um so we're moving to approve the certificate of appropriateness with the condition that material changes related to mass like how do we need to phrase it? Like as has been discussed because we have specific things, right? We want to see what it would look like if the limestone on the top story is swapped with the brick on the second story.

Yes, I I would I'd be very say that be very [laughter] say that um that you would we would like to see uh resubmitted renderings showing that um to address the concerns of N2 in the design guidelines. Yes. Um, and then if you wanted to see any of the other renderings, like if you do want to see renderings showing the um, micro retail. Yeah. And I think Commissioner Overman's suggested to see that from the street view would be best. Yeah.

So, yes, it could be could be something like in order to address concerns with design guideline N2, you would like a resubmitt with Yeah. Was there anything else? Was there were there other suggestions for massing that people wanted to see? Commissioner Hayes, I just think we should maybe see a few examples.

It gives us a little idea of where they are in the process too for the uh micro business space and that along Laroo and the the corner area and Birch just so we know also the commitment that that will um they're looking into that. Yeah. So, murals on the building, just example murals. You could do a stock Getty image photo of whatever.

Um, and um the micro retail spaces and and again just point of clarification maybe I think it'd be good to say example because whatever you might be approving with that will not be the final design for the murals or for the micro retail. It's all subject to change, but you you would like to see the rendering just to have an idea. I want to see how it's going to break up the space to deal with. Okay.

So, I move to approve a certificate of appropriateness for the design of a new hotel and parking garage building at 19 West Birch Avenue with the conditions that to address our concerns of uh design guideline N2 that we see uh rendering of the hotel with the fourth story uh lime fifthstory limestone swapped with the second story brick and renderings from street level to see the uh micro retail spaces and uh on both the hotel and parking garage and uh examples of designs on the parking garage.

And if we can pause um our one of our city attorneys um has her hand up online. Thanks Lauren. And just a quick question is the commission wanting to approve all of these? I thought I had heard that maybe the micro retail micro business was just for information only but that the the swapping of materials was for approval. If we could just clarify that in the motion. Thank you so much.

Yes, I will amend the motion [laughter] that the uh visual for the uh material swapping is a condition of approval but the renderings of the microspaces and murals is forformational purposes. I think you need to amend the motion again because uh we also requested renderings from street view. Yes, the renderings of the murals and the I'll just start over.

[laughter] I move to approve the certificate of appropriateness for the design of a new hotel and parking garage building at 19 West Birch Street with the condition that to address our uh concerns over the N2 uh guideline in the design handbook uh that we see renderings of the hotel building with the fifthstory limestone swapped with the seconds story brick.

And forformational purposes, we would like to see renderings from the street level of the uh micro retail spaces at the uh parking garage and hotel and murals on the parking garage. Examples allowed. The end. I second the motion. Any discussion? Commissioner Overman, do you have something you'd like to discuss about it? No. No more discussion. So, I guess we vote. All in favor of the motion as presented by Commissioner Taylor might want to rephrase it. [laughter] I do want to vote.

You looked like you were ready to rephrase it. Okay. All in favor of the commission as composed by Commissioner Dale say I. I. Any opposed? I hear none. The motion passes. So we have finished item seven and we will move on to Thank you everybody. We'll move on to item eight general business. A is Nikk Route 66 brownfields coalition assessment grant presentation. This is discussion only and I'll invite Dave Laney from Stantech up here for the presentation. Hello. Um thank you for having me.

I um am interested in uh sharing with you um information about a grant. Um Duffy, you're familiar with these grants. I think you've used the last two of them. Um City of Flagstaff had one between 2012 and 2015 roughly. uh Northern Arizona Council of Governments had a a similar grant between 2019 and 20 uh 24. And then this is uh a third grant that started in in uh 2024 and goes until 2028.

Um, and this is a grant from the US Environmental Protection Agency, uh, to help with reuse and redevelopment of properties in Northern Arizona. So, uh, so I'm very quickly going to just talk about what the program is, how it's funded.

um what kinds of properties are eligible and then um talk a little bit about how it's been used uh with historic buildings in Arizona and what uh we might need from the commission to help get the word out to folks who own historic buildings and might benefit from the use of the grant. So, um, sometimes this is called the property reuse and revitalization program. Sometimes people call it the brownfield program, um, because that's EPA's definition for some of these buildings.

And I will go through what a brownfield is here in just a minute. Uh, it's a $ 1.5 million grant. Um, these are not easy to get. There were only 31 [sighs] uh awarded in the country uh when Nikkag got this last grant. Um there will only be 12 awarded next year. Um so the money is is pretty scarce. Um but so far Nikk has been pretty successful and and as I said this is their second one of these grants over the last few years.

Um, in this particular case, this grant uh can be used by Navajo, Cookanino, Yavapai, and Mojave counties and every town and every city and every property owner in those four counties. Um, and this grant can be used for privately owned property and for publicly owned property. It's it was 100% grant funded. there were no matching funds that any city or Nikko had to put up to get this. Um so it's uh it's a it's a very good thing and it's a unique opportunity for property owners.

Um and the the one of the most important things is it's not an enforcement program. So, even though the money comes from EPA and EPA does have enforcement uh programs, uh if you get an assessment of your property with this grant, uh there's not a a phone call that follows up. There's not a letter from EPA. They don't come and knock on your door. You basically don't hear from them. Um and it's been that way ever since the program started about 25 years ago.

Uh it started because the US Conference of Mayors was concerned about slum and blight in downtowns throughout uh the US and and it was decided at the very beginning this has to be voluntary and there is no followup that's required by the property owners once they get the assessment. It's up to them what they do with the information. As far as uh who is working on this, I mentioned the four counties. Those are the main coalition members with Nikko being the lead coalition member.

Um but there are uh folks that represent each of the counties and some of the major cities. So Greg Zaneka over here is with City of Flagstaff. He's uh an active participant in this whole thing. Um but you know the like the director of uh facilities for Cookanino County is uh involved uh the Kingman city managers involved. A lot of people who are higher up within their organization because all the counties and cities consider it important take advantage of this grant when they can.

And I should say even though this is a four-year grant, um we're about 21 months into it and I think the money will probably only last for another year. Uh it just is in such demand that it never lasts uh as long as you think it's going to last. There's a lot more um need for it than there is money to go around.

Uh the idea is that with this grant um NICOG and all the coalition members are able to plan for uh provide funding and technical assistance to property owners who want to reuse, revitalize and redevelop uh previously used property and buildings. And um a lot of times these buildings and property are vacant or they're underutilized or they're abandoned, but not always. Sometimes they're uh actively used and there are businesses um active businesses in the buildings and on the properties.

Um but the property owners know that um because of existing conditions of the the buildings and the properties uh there's a limited amount of uh that they can do with them and um you know if they use this grant uh they can actually it can actually help them say re renovate an old building or a historic building um when they wouldn't be able to do that uh with their own resources otherwise. So what is a brownfield?

Well, EPA says it's any property the redevelopment reuse uh or expansion of which is complicated due to the presence or perceived presence of contaminants or hazardous substances. And the the key there is a perceived presence, which means a lot of the uh properties and the buildings that we work on uh just don't have any good documentation on what the history is. And if you know anything about developers or investors or bankers, you know that they don't like uncertainty.

They want to know what was the building used for 20 years ago or 30 years ago or 50 years ago. And that's where this grant comes in and can be very valuable because we document uh all the records uh that are out there about previous property use and and previous use of the building if there's a building on the site. So, a lot of people think of brownfields as gas stations, dry cleaners, things like that, auto repair facilities, uh, any of the things that are in this picture.

But, um, we also do a lot of work on on buildings like this, um, old schools hospitals churches um strip malls, and a lot of historic buildings. And um you'll see that when I talk about some that have been done over the last few years where um with this grant here in Arizona, one of the important things about the grant is that it helps with economic development.

So for EPA's records show that for every $1 of grant funds that are spent um something like 18 to $23 of investment from other sources is also spent on the same property. Uh and it also tends to increase property values. If you get an assessment and then somebody does something with the property, property values increase by 5 to 15%.

And it's not just the property where something's been done, but it's as as uh influential as uh having some effect on properties within four blocks of that building in all directions. So, how does it work? Um we just have a very simple site nomination form. It's two pages long. just ask who's the owner, who's um you know um what is the address of the property, what's it been used for, has it ever had an assessment, and if there's something that's proposed for future use, what's the timing on it?

Because if we have a property that say is in escrow or uh a property where um the building is uh is set to be um renovated or sold. Uh it's very important that we get the assessment done as soon as possible. And so we we want to know what the timing is. Uh but this report or this uh site nomination form takes about 5 to 10 minutes for the property owner fill out. It's very simple and straightforward. You've done this several times, Duffy.

I think after the site nomination form is filled out, then if it's a site that might have had some petroleum on it, say it is an old gas station or it's uh an auto repair facility, uh then Arizona Department of Environmental Quality will be asked to approve use of the grant to do the assessment. If it's a old building or something that would have hazardous substances like asbestous or lead based paint, then EPA looks at it and will approve it.

Uh, and it's very rare that they don't approve uh, use of this grant when the property owners submit one of the site nomination forms. Uh, about the only time it happens is if uh, the current property owner also is responsible for putting contamination on the site. So, if you had a major oil company and they have an old gas station and they want somebody to go out and do an assessment on it, um that would not qualify.

But if it's say a mom and pop business that wants to buy an old gas station, renovate it, put in a I don't know, a bookstore, a coffee shop, whatever, uh that would qualify all day long. And the three things that we do most often is we do what's called a phase one environmental site assessment where we go out and we look at all the publicly available records. We interview the current owner. Um you know we look at old historical aerial photographs. We look at Sandborn fire insurance maps.

Um, and then uh we say whether or not we think there's a recognized environmental condition, which means uh there's something about prior or current use that would have uh that would indicate that there was a release of either petroleum or hazard substances. Uh if that is the case, then the property uh can get a phase two and and the phase one typically costs $3 to $5,000, but it's free for any property that um is accepted into the program.

And if it has a recognized environmental condition, needs a phase 2 environmental site assessment, uh that also is is free, even though those are much more expensive.

Those probably start at $20,000 and go up to We've got one in Winsow right now we're working on that's probably going to cost $80,000 to do the assessment, but it's free um to the property owner because it was accepted into the program and the current property owner did not have anything to do with any potential contamination or any existing conditions that are there. And then we do hazardous building material surveys. So we do go in and sample for asbesus and lead based paint.

And this is the uh uh the work that we do most often on historic buildings. And it anything that was uh built prior to 1980 or um say after 1910 or so probably has a pretty good chance of having either asbestous or lead based pain or both. If you get back far enough, if you get back into the 1800s, mid to late 1800s, you can go into a building and find no asbestos whatsoever. Uh they just didn't start to use it extensively until around World War I.

And so um we have had instances where a building, historic building, everybody's sure it's full of asbestos and we go in and we test it and there's nothing there. And that's that's a great result for the for the building owner obviously. So what kinds of historic preservation um uh projects have we worked on? What kinds of uh historic buildings have we worked on with this grant? This is the bucket of blood saloon built in 1888 in Hullbrook.

Um it's been vacant for quite a while, but the city owns it and they want to do something with it. It will take a lot of money. Uh but they want to potentially make it part of a tourist attraction. Um because the name as as the name implies, there was a famous gun battle uh in this in this u in this saloon back in the day. Uh we did a a phase one environmental site assessment. We did a hazardous or regulated building material survey. Um, we also did a a structural assessment.

We got a structural engineer to look at the building. That was paid for 100% with the grant. And uh and the city's moving forward with uh doing something with the building. Now, across the street, uh there's a house. Um I think part of it was built in 1887. There were other parts of it that were built in 1947. Uh another famous gun battle here. Uh the the sheriff at the time, the county sheriff killed single-handedly killed three people in front of this this house and uh is quite f famous.

So they're trying to hope and city is trying to wrap all this together. This and the the bucket of blood saloon. We did structural assessment here. We did phase one environmental site assessment. We did the regulated building material survey. Um, and it was all free to the city of Hullbrook. Here's a property in Bisby. Uh, this was a three-story hospital that was constructed by the predecessor to Freeport Macaran.

So, the mining company, the Calumat and Arizona uh, mining company built this in 1917 1918. Uh the city now owns it and they're trying to get an affordable housing developer to come in and um redevelop this property u put in about 30 apartments and um and create uh housing for folks who work in downtown Bisby because it's just so expensive. Nobody can afford to live near there. Um, we did an asbestous survey, asbestous leadbased paint survey.

We did a phase one environmental site assessment here. And we also did uh what's called a site reuse plan, which is another thing that can be done with these grants. Um, this is a picture of the uh cover of the site reuse plan. And uh in this case, what we did was we looked at um potential parking opportunities on the site because that was a real concern uh for for development, future development.

Obviously looked at whether or not it was going to conform to zoning if it was uh converted into some sort of residential use. And um I think it was it was extremely influential in the city getting bids from affordable housing developers. Uh nobody took a second look at it until this study was done. And then there were several uh developers who who bid on it and they bid at um the full assessed value of the of the building once the study was done.

So they were building they were bidding like $600,000 on this this building which was again the assessed value. There's just some more pictures of uh there's actually two buildings one smaller than the other. Um just late last year we uh we did an asbesus and leadbased paint survey a regulated building material survey on the be hotel in Kingman. That's the oldest building in town. and it's owned by a family. Um they inherited it and they didn't know what to do with it.

Um, but a lot of times if you get these kinds of assessments, that's the first step to folks actually beginning to do something with uh an asset, a building, um, in this case, a very historic building, um, that would otherwise just fall down and because it has not been wellmaintained. Um after this work was done and this is on the national registry of historic place by the way.

Um state of Arizona Department of Environmental Quality said we cannot give you cleanup money to clean up the asbestous uh because you're a private property owner.

But if you're willing to work with the city of Kingman or a nonprofit like the Route 66 Association of Arizona and temporarily um give them title to the property and have it cleaned up with our money that we give to them, then they can return the property to you and uh you can proceed to to do renovation and then put a new hotel in there if you want, put businesses in there, whatever you want to do. Um, so they're they're working on it right now.

Uh, it requires a little bit more finesse and as I said, a title of transfer uh transfer of title, but um we're hopeful that they'll be able to make something happen here. And then this one you guys all recognize. I hope we did the Oreium uh did an assessment on the Oreium just recently. The city of Flagstaff is thinking about whether or not they might want to purchase it. Uh, this was built in, as I understand it, 1911 and then the roof caved in and they had to remodel and expand it.

U 1916, 1917, something like that, which is actually when it got the name orfume. I didn't know that. Um, and then I guess it was expanded like once or twice like in the 50s and the 60s, but you know, we look for it as best as we look for bed lead based paint. There's a little bit. It's there, but it's not too bad. It's not nearly as bad as I would have thought it might be.

Um, and the phase one environmental site assessment showed no recognized environmental conditions, even though over the years this building has been surrounded by historic gas stations, many of which have had leaking underground storage tanks and have contaminated groundwater, have contaminated soil, things like that. Almost all of them have been cleaned up, and the ones that haven't generally are not close enough to actually cause a problem with this. But we looked at that very carefully.

There were probably five different gas stations that operated within a block of this building at one time or another. This one I'm not going to spend too much time on because it's not in in Arizona. But I will tell you this is my biggest success story with historic buildings. Uh this is in Canyon City, Colorado. uh the building that failed as a hotel in one city and then brought to was brought brick by brick uh in covered wagon to Canyon City and reconstructed.

It existed for 130 years uh as a hotel and then eventually uh was vacant and unoccupied and in terrible shape. And the company that owns it now bought it at auction for $88,000. We did as best as some lead based paint to help them out at the cost of maybe $35,000 for the assessment. Since then, they put $17 million into this building and they had the grand reopening last year. You can see what a beautiful building this is.

Uh it is on the National Registry of Historic Places and uh they've had uh full capacity. They've been at full capacity for the hotel rooms in the building ever since ever since they opened. So, it's a great success story. And I think while not every historic building uh would manage to achieve this level of success, there's always a lot that can be done to help uh those those old buildings that are out there that have value.

if uh if somebody just takes the time and gets a little bit of assistance with something like this grant. And that's really why I'm here. I just would like to ask the commission if you guys know of historic buildings in Flagstaff or elsewhere in Northern Arizona where you think, you know, a property owner is kind of struggling, a business uh a building owner is struggling and doesn't quite know what the next step might be.

This assessment is free and a lot of times even if they have asbesus or lead based paint in the building they don't have to spend money to take it out. Sometimes they can leave it in place and manage it in place and we can work with them to make sure they know how to to to make that happen. And if they've got asbestous or lead based paint and it's they're a nonprofit or uh the building's owned by a city or county, um the state of Arizona will pay to take that material out for free.

If they're privately owned, then uh it's a little bit more complicated as I described with the Beal Hotel in Kingman. uh they might might have to, you know, work with a nonprofit or a city uh to temporarily transfer ownership until the city can use the state's funds to clean it up. But there are ways to to to deal with that and um it happens all the time. It happens every day. Um, so I would just say if you know somebody that's got a building like that, uh, let them know about the grant.

Uh, there are a lot of websites out there. Nikko has a website. Somebody can Google uh, Nikko Brownfields and their website will come up and it's got the site nomination form on there. Same thing with City of Flagstaff. uh put in Flagstaff Brownfields and it it'll come up the the the web page on the city's website that talks about this grant will come up and you can get the site nomination form.

Um so it's very it's very easy for property owners to get access to the grant uh if they're interested. It take them again about 10 minutes to fill out the site nomination form. I think that's it. Do we have any questions? Commissioner Hayes, you had one a bit. You're good. Okay. Anyone else have any questions? Oh, Commissioner Overman, thank you so much for this presentation and bringing this to our attention.

I actually found this really interesting because uh my company, we are environmental consulting firms. So, I work on EA's environmental assessments and ESA uh ESAs all the time. And we primarily work on tribal tribal land. Does this apply to tribal land throughout northern Arizona as well? It it does.

Um because uh the Navajo Nation is within parts of it are within um Cookanino County, we can do buildings uh on those parts of the the Navajo reservation that are within the bound boundaries of Cookanino County. Um there are a few other tribes um that have the same situation where where uh their lands are within those four counties that I mentioned. Um and any of them can actually uh request an assessment.

And then another question um I guess because again uh tribal land is a little bit different. Um but would they have to if so if a tribal land is uh like again like a private land like a gas station or something would that have to go for the same type of finessing that you described earlier as well? It well it all depends on who the owner is. As you know with tribal land you know a lot of it is held in tribal trust.

So, if it's if it's a piece of property that um is in the tribal trust, then there's a different process for that. But there's also a lot of um gas stations that are technically within the reservation, but they're owned privately by somebody who lives outside the reservation. And you know, that would follow the process that we're all used to. Um but you know tribes are are eligible for cleanup grants on some triby uh some property that's in tribal trust um and those come from directly from EPA.

So, they get um some special consideration in many cases that um properties that are owned by private uh individuals in cities and counties throughout northern Arizona don't get. Um and and so the answer, the short answer is yes. Yes, tribes tribes can definitely use this. Thank you so much. I will be passing this along to my bosses tomorrow. Commissioner Stewart, did you have Okay. Anyone else?

[snorts] I you you might want to say something about how you've used this grant before because I I I can say what I know. Uh I think that was it the Soulberg Oh, cottages originally. Uh yeah, we did it on Yeah. our first project for Townside Community Land Trust. You did an assessment for asbestous and um lead paint. And then we also did it on the house we moved from Hillside. That's correct.

And put on birch, which maybe you would like to know, the Sega Lily house that is now listed on the National Register in that National Register District. The backpacks. Yeah, I I it was actually Well, I got a picture. EPA EPA. Uh we always ask if the um um what their criteria is for uh approving one of these properties to get an assessment. And uh a lot of times it's focused on the assessments are focused on commercial property and industrial property and not so much residential.

But in the case of the the houses that you mentioned, it it um doing the assessments there accomplished two things. It helped with historic preservation and also helped provide affordable housing. And in those cases, EPA said, as long as it provides a community benefit, we're more than happy to approve use of the grant funds to to get an assessment on those houses. So, yeah, thank you for your help with that. Yeah, I I was very happy that you were able to use it in the way that you did. Yeah.

Anything else from anyone? Well, no. Thank you very much. Really appreciate it. Pass the word on as we can. Thank you. And if you want, I can send all of you like a copy of the site nomination form. That way, if you do know somebody, just forward it on to them. Thank you. So, some people have taken a quick break. Anyone else? I would love to take like four and a half minutes.

And please, I would propose as we we're have gone so late, maybe we could table the larger discussion item and I can do my two quick report outs and we can adjourn the meeting. I I would like to take four minutes. Please use the restroom and maybe someone else. I'll be fast. Lauren, am I allowed to ask you a question during this time? If we have are taking a break in the meeting, um, we can we can wait Okay, we're back. Thank you. Thank you all for that quick break.

So, we'll pass it back to Lauren. All right, we are on um let's see, I moved off the that page 8B. So, historic Science of MSAD's grant tracking update. Um so, we just switched fiscal year. So, I had the last grant tracking for last fiscal year and started a new one for this fiscal year. We ended last fiscal year. We were able to pay out um the grant for 822 West Grand Canyon with last year's money.

So that wrapped that up and we are carrying one grant over uh 910 North Laroo to this new fiscal year. Um and I did the grant inspection for the Grand Canyon project and included the grant inspection photos. Um and happy to answer any questions about those. But not too much, but we have a lot of we have a lot of grant money. So um tell your friends.

I think we've got I'm talking um actively talking with one person right now who will hopefully be coming in maybe next month um with an application but a whole year ahead of us. So Lauren, speaking of grants, are you going to apply for that Brownfields grant for the May Hicks House? U possibly. Um that could be something we consider. Um as Dave mentioned, we did apply for the Oreium.

Um, we saw in uh some of the preliminary research, we did a building inspection report and an appraisal and the building inspection looked at the remodel plans from the 40s and on at the state library and on the plans we saw that um the side where the deli is was a gas station um on the property.

So, that was [laughter] one of the flags for for doing that um doing additional research was we better figure out what's which that that little um basically like kind of the band staging area by the emergency exit where you go in like that's where it was. We're like wonder what's under there. But good news. So, yeah.

So possibly with that um and so eight or yeah 8 C do we want to have the larger discussion tonight or do we want to table that for um a meeting where you haven't already been here for three hours three and a half hours I think we I think we can table it to next time if everyone else agrees. Yeah, I'd agree. Okay. Um, in that case, the approvals 9A um is just one re-roofing um project in the town site overlay. So, fairly standard um re-roofing in in kind.

Happy to answer any questions about that one. And next. Yeah. Is that it from you, Lauren? All right. That takes us toformational items to or from commissioner members and staff. Anyone have anything they want to bring up? Um, this is kind of two questions. The first question for commissioner members. Is anyone else going to the conference tomorrow or Friday? No. Okay. I was just curious if three of us were there if we would have to like post quorum. Uh no. Okay. I I I think one you're good.

Um but two recent guidance from the clerk's office events like that you you never know, right? You might all show up at Hullbloo and so things accidental things like that don't you don't you don't have to do a notice of quorum. Just if it was to happen just be mindful of not not discussing um commission business. Okay. And then the second thing is I think from this whole process with at 19 West Birch Avenue taught us a lot and showed us a lot.

Um, Commissioner Hayes made a comment at the appeal for certificate of economic hardship and I'm wondering if we can have a larger discussion about this agenda wise about updating the inventory of historical buildings in Flagstaff because if I remember Commissioner Hayes, you said it was like done in the 70s. Um, most of us 1979 and 1980. Yeah. So I wonder if 82 I was wondering if we can have like a larger discussion about updating that because several buildings it's 40 years since then now.

So a lot of building buildings only built 10 years before that could now potentially be eligible because it will be past 50 years. So I was wondering that can be on a broader agenda item down the road. That's definitely something we can discuss. Um you know we do have to obligate staff time and um money. We do not have any funding for this at the moment. We are working on one inventory update which is the southside. Um and Cornerstone is volunteering hours to help with that inventory update.

So that is I can say right now the one inventory update we are currently working on is updating the southside inventory. Um but you know happy to discuss that. I know this could wrap back into some of our other discussions about like having an annual retreat and prioritizing um things in our work program, but we do not have any money in the new fiscal year for an inventory update project. So that's the bottom line.

Um it is something is obviously in need, but we do have to um go after money whether it's the city grant money etc. I have a question about that. So um in the um I think it's the guidelines of what the HPC is for is to to um do inventories and surveys and H certified local governments receive part of the heritage preservation fund through the shipo. So what part what is that part that they get? Where does that go for Flagstaff?

Um, I don't believe the heritage preservation fund can be used for that's brick and mortar work, but um, there is a CLG grant matching grant program um, that we actually got money for the Southside update project is the last time we got it. Um and that and clearly we're still working on that inventory, but it paid for updating um the historic context um was all it covered and now we're actually doing all of the inventory forms and we'll finish that.

But it there is there money available once you get it then you go back to the bottom of the list with all the CLGs in the state and have to keep applying. Um, and of course, you know, priorities of do we want to do which inventory do we want to update? Do we want to inventory parts of town like Sunnyside that do not have a historic context and have never been surveyed?

So there are yeah a lot of competing things to evaluate but the CLG grant can cover um planning and inventories unlike the heritage fund um which is mostly brick and mortar work on national register listed properties. So what does Flagstaff use it for right now then if I mean are you guys doing stabilization on properties? I mean we don't have any money. You don't get any heritage preservation fund money? No, we have to apply for it um and in a competitive grant cycle. Um and we do not have any.

We were looking at applying this year for May Hicks, but because you have to be listed in the National Register and we aren't ready to go with brickandmortar work, we weren't eligible to apply. Thank you. Um stay on this topic. Um and again this can be part of the larger agenda discussion but I understand that um as you said we have the funding for it.

Um it's it could be something on the commission to like draft a letter or meet with city council to advocate for that along with uh staff and that's like again that would be part of a larger discussion how we would approach that but that is like a suggestion because again the fiscal the budget just got passed so we have a full year to work on this potentially to be city council. It's a great point.

Um, and that, you know, probably before your time on the commission has been discussed that yes, like the commission and any member of the public can be part of the public budget hearings and request funds for these things. So, um, or and or if the city is applying for a grant, the commission, um, this also happened with May Hicks can write a letter of support for the grant undertaking. So, Is that it? Anyone else have anything to add?

Oh, I think that what Commissioner Overman said actually is part of the education part that discussion that we'll be having really. So, [laughter] it's all related. So, if no one has anything, we can adjourn at whatever time 6:39. Yeah. 7:12 p.m. Hey, 7:12. Whatever. No.