Flagstaff Council Splits 4-3 on Lake Mary Housing Rezoning, Overriding Planning Commission Denial Amid Fierce Neighborhood Opposition

get started today is Tuesday November 19th 2024 this is the city council's regular meeting I'm calling the meeting to order and giving notice to members of the city council and the general public that the city council may vote to go into executive session which will not be open to the public can I have quiet please which will not be open to the public for discussion and consultation with the city's attorneys for legal advice on any item listed on the following agenda can we have roll call Mayor daget here vice mayor alen here council member Harris here council member house council member Matthews here council member McCarthy here council member sweet here council member sweet would you lead us in the Pledge of Allegiance would be my honor please stand a aable e the mission of the city of Flagstaff is to protect and enhance the quality of life for all thank you council member McCarthy the Flagstaff city council humbly acknowledges The ancestral homelands of this area's indigenous Nations and original stewards these Lands still inhabited by native descendants border mountains sacred to indigenous peoples we honor them their legacies their traditions and their continued contributions we celebrate their past present and future Generations who will forever know this place as home thank you thank you next up is open call to the public which enables the public to address us on any item that is not on tonight's prepared agenda comments related to items that are on the agenda will be taken at the time that item is discussed we have open call to the public twice on our agenda once now for 30 minutes and then another at the end each uh speaker has three minutes and there's a clock here and um because it's open call to the public and not something that is on our agenda Council cannot respond to you with questions or comments so first up or only up it looks like we have Devana McLaughlin good evening Madame mayor members of council my name is Devana mlin and I um serve as the CEO of Housing Solutions of Northern Arizona a local nonprofit Housing Organization that works to improve housing affordability in our community and I just wanted to let you know that we have finished our 2024 rental attainability report which you guys are going to get copies of along with the press release hot off the presses um and so I'm excited to share this data with you um and with the community and decision makers we've been doing our rental attainability report since 2016 to try and look at what's happening with rental rates in our community um vacancy rates and any other barriers to affordable rental housing that folks make might face in our community and this year I will sum it up with the good the Bad and the Ugly um the good news is that rental rates are stabilizing we did not see significant increases and we saw a couple of decreases in rents year-over-year for one bedrooms sorry Studios one bedrooms two bedrooms and three bedrooms so that's really exciting news that we're not seeing the appreciation that in rental prices that we've seen over the last couple of years the other good news is that we're starting to see increases in vacancy rates so our vac vacancy rate this year is 6.76% and a healthy vacancy rate is typically 5 to 10% the bad news is that rents remain high so when you have high appreciation in rents year-over-year just stabilizing doesn't mean that we've seen significant affordability improvements so a two-bedroom apartment Rose 13.7% from um 2021 to 2022 and then it was followed by a 12.1% increase from 2022 2023 so it went up 8% this last year but when you compound that with the two previous years it's still expensive to live in Flagstaff in order to afford an average two-bedroom apartment a family needs to earn approximately $ 79,80 annually which equates to $662 3 a month or $382 cents an hour for one wage earner the other bit of news that's kind of ugly is that despite efforts to increase the supply of subsidized affordable housing in the last year we've actually reduced the number of units that are available and affordable to low-income households we increased um with the Villas on Lake Mary coming in with 76 units of Housing and 32 units of housing through the city's affordable rental program with the ARA development but at the same time two former low-income housing tax credit properties completed qualified contract reducing those those units from the affordable Market by 144 units so we're down 32 units overall year-over-year I just want to share this data with you all because um it's important I think uh for our community to know and I appreciate your time thank you thank you and I was just handed uh a couple of additional cards Colleen Maring good afternoon mayor vice mayor council my name is Colleen Maring I'm the chief people officer and chief legal counsel for Northern Arizona Healthcare and I'm pleased to be here today with some excellent news not news about a new location for our new hospital but I will come back with that someday um uh but I'm very happy to announce that um both of Northern Arizona healthc Care's hospitals um have been recognized uh just this week by a by a national um independent uh Watchdog group that set standards for excellence in patient care and patient safety the leap frog group um grades hospitals from a to F based on National performance measures um that index errors accidents um injuries and infections as well as the systems that hospitals have in place to prevent those and both Flagstaff Medical Center and birie Valley Medical Center received A's there are only 14 A's in the state of Arizona um and fewer than 30% of hospitals Nationwide um received an a uh it shows um that we are um some of the saf safest hospitals in the entire nation Flag Staff is receiving their fourth in a row so we're really proud of this result it we think it speaks to our staff who provide amazing patient care every patient every time together with this focus on patient safety um and high quality outcomes so I hope that you'll join me in celebrating all of our staff this week uh we will be putting out a press release uh in the next few days but we wanted to come here and share it with you all first thank you so much thank you Craig buard at the end of the meeting yes Dapper Dre howdy thank you uh council member staff everybody here uh I have to leave to a meeting so I know it's supposed to be for the agenda item in regards to the Sound Ordinance I just wanted to come in speak from a person who does a lot of events that does have Amplified music and uh other things I would say using as best a discretion as you can for areas and ordinances that not only affect certain areas that are quote unquote problematic I'm I'm so sorry um yeah I can't do that can't talk about it yes cool well thank you for your time thank you sorry you couldn't stay with us right okay next up proclamations and recognitions first is a proclamation for transgender day of remembrance and we have some people in the audience if you'll um come join join us on the de is this it is there anyone else who was here for this who would like to join us down here okay and what we'll do is take a photo after and then um whoever would like to speak can come to the microphone and speak transgender and gender expansive people may face stigma surrounding their identity in the workplace at school at home when accessing healthare and other social services and when interacting with law enforcement which erects barriers in virtually every aspect of life transgender people face disproportionate rates of poverty and homelessness in the United States with these issues being even more severe for transgender women of color transgender people living in poverty may be forced to rely on criminalized and highly dangerous work that is linked to increased rates of intimate partner violence and sexual assault in 2024 40% of transgender people uh reported being sexually assaulted transgender people may be more susceptible to increased mental health risks including depression anxiety and suicide in 2024 81% of transgender adults reported having cons considered suicide 42% have attempted suicide and 56% have self-injured for nonsuicidal reasons fatal violence disproportionately affects transgender people there are few very explicit legal protections for transgender people in the areas of housing employment and access to Social Services and recent legislative efforts have been designed to reduce or eliminate existing legal protections for transgender people mayor and council members here by recognize and renew the commitment between the city of Flagstaff and Northern Arizona to work together for equality for the benefit of all and to help reduce the hardships of the transgender and gender expansive Community now therefore I Becky daget mayor of the city of Flagstaff Arizona do hereby Proclaim November 20th 2024 as transgender day of remembrance [Applause] thank you city council members and mayor dagas I'm my name is z Jacobs um I just want to invite everybody tomorrow we'll have events we partnered with Northern Arizona University starting at 11:00 a.m.

we will be at the office of inclusion where we'll be there till 2 pm and then we will be coming to City Hall in the grass over here we're having a visual um please join us we'll be here till 6:30 so thank you and thank you all [Applause] next up we have November work anniversaries good afternoon mayor and Council Shannon Anderson your senior deput C manager uh we're celebrating our folks who began with us at least one year ago in November um so we're going to go through um each of those uh celebrating this month so for our first year um you'll see some employees uh in community stewards uh as well as Management Services uh some of our Pros employees um as well as uh engineering and fire we've got a few more here celebrating their first year um in Recreation the police department uh Public Works um sustainability as well as water services uh celebrating uh their fifth year anniversary this month you might recognize Neil Chapman he is our Wildland Forest Health supervisor in our Flag Staff fire department um Clarice a Lancaster is one of our Recreation officials um like many of our temporary Recreation employees we don't see them all that often and so we've been trying to identify a picture that at least talks about their contributions to the city um and Clarice is one of our volleyball officials and so that's why you see the picture before you today um so congrats to Clarice on her fifth year with us um Nicholas is one of our library Specialists um so you would see him at one of our downtown um or east flag libraries and then for 25 years um Trevor is actually with us today in the audience so I'll invite him to come up so that way you know we can embarrass him appropriately right so come on up Trevor while I um so Trevor and you might also know him as the new guy um he began working for our city in um in engineering believe it or not I was interested to find out if this is where he started um and it was indeed where he started his career with the city 25 years ago as a project manager um in 2022 he became the Capital Improvements engineer um and he has been recognized uh this last year not only as a city manager award recipient for the Aspen award but also our 2023 leader of the year if you might recall that celebration as well um he's recently received a wonderful outstanding worker award as well as a quality step increase um both recognizing his service going above and beyond um he and his team are part of monumental projects that I know that you hear about often a couple of them listed Spruce wash Rio to flag JW pal lry overpass and the Bula University alignment um so this team does an incredible work um and under Trevor's leadership super appreciative for his commitment to our organization and to Flag Staff overall so congratulations Trevor I'm going to pass it to [Applause] you well thank you I appreciate the kind words and um it's a real honor to work for the city of Flag Staff for the engineering division for the capital Improvement section I can't think of another place I would rather be right now so it's been great people talented people that I work with and I'm always learning from them 25 years is a long time but I can truly say that I'm still learning the positions still learning how to be an effective leader and it's under the direction of my supervisor city engineer Paul mood also with current leadership and with councel we come here we seek Direction you give guidance and you help us on some of these amazing projects that we work with and everything that my section does is due to the people that work there the project managers themselves they have great leadership they've learned from other people besides me and they continue to deliver these projects on a daily basis and I'm really appreciative of them their hard work and everything they they do and so we're we again just appreciate I appreciate the honor it's just a great blessing for me to work for the city of Flagstaff I rely on my Heritage my culture and most importantly my faith so again thank [Applause] you thank you Trevor so that was the last that we have for you this evening we'll see you again in December all right thank you so much okay Council liaison reports going to start with council member Matthews council member Harris I just wanna uh this is not really a lay on report but I just want to uh Express a hearty thank you to Shannon and to the Chief and can't remember what other staff people from the city was at the Southside Community Association meeting uh the board really appreciated you coming out um to their meeting and so I just wanted to say thank you vice mayor thank you in terms of council liaison reports not much going on this past week I will have two Council uh or committee meetings this week I did want to touch upon one thing that's relevant though the annual marketing meeting of Discovery Flagstaff I'm the tourism commission um liaison that was a wonderful event lasted a couple hours included lunch lots of folks from the business Comm community and the tourism industry in the audience with us our team got to the opportunity to sort of brag at length about the accomplishments that they've uh managed to get underway this past year and uh I had the extreme honor and privilege of being able to introduce Jeff Hall the director of the Lal Observatory uh for a few words as we celebrate him retiring and moving on um right on the cusp of the opening of the Discovery Center which is a huge lishment for him and for our community and that was a lot of fun and and and noting that uh I was able to attend the grand opening um and watched the the mayor participate in the ribbon cutting for the Discovery Center this weekend I have met people this week who've lived here for 40 years and who have never been up on Mars Hill um that is absolutely astonishing to me uh there's no excuse anymore the Discovery Center is absolutely world class it's really exciting it feels like a Smithsonian uh Museum and on the mall in Washington DC I highly encourage everyone uh to get a membership to go check it out to visit it often and to make sure you bring visitors with you there when they come to see you thank you thanks vice mayor and great job at the luncheon uh council member McCarthy thank you mayor uh I attended the bicycle U advisory committee this last week thank you council member sweet couple of quick things uh Wednesday I'll be at the mountain line board meeting 10: to noon Thursday I'm heading down to Scottdale to take a tour of the Scottdale water campus followed by a Water Commission meeting here in the chambers four o'clock thank you and nothing from me so let's move down to liquor license public hearings mayor oh did I skip something my apologies council member house was able to join the meeting virtually oh wonderful yeah council member house apologies mayor I didn't U let you know in the chat that I was here um the only thing for me this week is just an update from the commission on Diversity Awareness I know that there is a desire to bring forward um the concept of a rainbow crosswalk and my understanding from a a separate meeting is that that may be something that's coming for forward from uh bpac as well so I wanted to uh just raise that here in the meeting as well thank you thank you all right now we're moving down to liquor license public hearings so um we have one license to consider I'm going to open the public hearing and have a presentation from staff good afternoon mayor and Council my name is georan stasy and I work in the city clerk's office before you today is a liquor license application for a location and owner transfer of a Series 6 bar license for bad's food joint located at 409 South San Francisco the agent on the application is Jeffrey Miller with owners Donald Huen and Eric Soren and Livingston handling day-to-day operations the police department and Community Development have conducted their respective investigations there were no concerns noted from the Community Development however there were findings from the police department two citizen objections were also filed their reports and objections are included in the agenda packet and their uh representatives from Community Development and the police department here to any answer any questions you may have representatives from the business have also been invited to attend the hearing today and the applicant is also online and they are available for any questions thank you council do you have any questions of Staff or the applicant all right um I don't see any questions from Council and I don't see any I do see in fact um so we do have have a public commenter and I will take that at this time Olivia Gillette hello thank you for letting me speak today my name is Liv you may recall that I spoke previously when Bandos applied for a restaurant license at that time I expressed strong opposition and unfortunately we find ourselves here again with Bandos now seeking approval for a liquor license it's important to note that the liquor license is something the business has needed for quite some time to operate legally the owner dawn has started five separate llc's in pursuit of his failed bar Ventures he has been sued multiple times for failing to pay employees yet continues to evade accountability by starting new llc's this appears to be a tactic to avoid consequen quences and is no coincidence that one of Don's Representatives served on the Arizona Liquor Board for nearly 20 years I believe this is a clear conflict of interest but I'll leave that for you to consider I left my job at Bandos because I witnessed disturbing and dangerous Behavior firsthand there were no security cameras no way to document what was happening behind the scenes what I saw was deeply concerning underage girls were knowingly admitted and encouraged to come in and there were attempts to Co them into inappropriate situations the owner and manager were regularly seen partying with young people using drugs both at the bar and outside of it Don has even been seeing adding young girls on social media platforms like Snapchat customers have shared with me that it is common knowledge these individuals engage in drug use both at work and outside of it I understand they will likely deny these accusations but the truth is clear Bandos or baddies as they are are now calling it is a place that Fosters unsafe Behavior they are indifferent of the risks of over serving alcohol or allowing underage drinking I ask you would you feel comfortable sending your daughter son cousin or friend to a place where this is happening please consider the safety of our community when making your decision these people do not have the best interest of Flagstaff residents at heart and they are putting young people at risk I will leave you at the with this since I last spoke at the last hearing countless people in our community have approach roached me and expressed their shock and concern to me they didn't realize what was happening but after inquiring further they verified everything I said Don and his business are a known danger to our community just ask around thank you thank you no addition no additional public comment all right um if there are no additional questions from Council then I'm going to close the public hearing and of council deliberation council member McCarthy thank you mayor um I read the packet in great detail a lot of reports uh some letters of nons support Etc and because of the numerous complaints that we received I believe that they are worthy of Investigation by the state liquor board so if we recommend a denial of this application it will go to the State Liquor Board and then they will investigate in more detail so I move that we forward the application to the state with a recommendation for denial thank you second any discussion all those in favor I I any opposed feel mayor you do have the option to reopen the public hearing to take any additional comments that's completely up to you all right I will reopen the public hearing and you have three minutes to address us they will both need to fill out public comment cards you can do it after we ready to speak um Council um thank you for taking this time and yes we are before you again um we have two people that are making protests both of those protests are direct competitors one has filed protests for many other liquor uh applications as a way to protest that business um the other person that spoke that was upset um and made just live who just spoke you know we have a ton of employees that are standing back there that are supporting us females and males I have a stack of letters from previous employees guests parents of guests talking about how their family feel safe how they feel safe why they come I've had employees that have left and come back and worked for us I just got a call earlier today from an employee that had previously worked with us that doesn't sound like an unsafe environment I've reached out to Chris roie he did do a uh audit of us previously that came back completely clear I actually reached out to him a week ago I volunteered to send all my records to him to do another audit I asked him if he had ever had that done before and his response was no one has ever voluntarily sent me records to do an audit um fake IDs are a problem they're a problem across the state we train our staff we don't let underage people in we followed the state laws The Liquor Board sent their agent during this application process he told me he spent 30 over a month he spent multiple times and saw no interactions that were not correct with the way that we check and ID individuals we've been sent Cubs countless times we have passed those so we we do follow those laws um we've been trying to meet with the city of Flagstaff PD we initiated those we initiated that back in January of 2023 three we got one meeting since then we've sent four requests for additional meetings and have had ghost response on that because we want to provide a safe environment because if it's not safe people aren't going to come um Snapchat to say social media that's marketing that's what you do right you reach out you connect with people and communicate with them on the platforms that they communicate on and if drugs you you can take a hair follicle I'll sign off whatever you can test me for drugs I have zero issues with that as well um I might actually go get it done on my own and submit you guys submit you guys the findings on that I don't care what that costs but um this city needs a place for college students to hang out interacting with adults in creepy places is not a safe safe environment crossing the railroad tracks right now we all know the issues with the railroad tracks thank you I invite you to come to our place at night and come visit us that's my invitation thank you hello my name is Eric Sorenson Livingstone uh mayor city council thank you for this brief opportunity to speak to you um I thought we were GNA have a little bit more time so I'm just GNA try to shorten my notes here um I would like to respectfully remind each and every one of you uh that as you hear and read testimony today um what you probably are not going to hear uh or anybody's going to mention to you are all of the underage individuals that we don't let in all of the fake IDs that we do catch all the individuals that we do Monitor and cut off from drinking um all the patrons especially females how safe they feel coming to visit us um we have a safety a female safety Ambassador we have um an Angel um an angel shot poster in our female bathroom saying if you feel any any if you're feeling like you're in any danger come see us and order a drink and that basically uh initiates management security to come to your Aid um all the free Ubers we give people to make sure that they give get home safely you're not going to hear anything like that no one's going to mention that but I hope that you hold that in mind as you're considering things um I wanted to make a quick remark about the the supplemental report from the police department that you have um my understanding this covers 10 months from the beginning of January 24th to the end of October um during that time it's probably safe to say we saw about 50,000 patrons come through on average about 5,000 a month or 1,250 a week one of the points of focus on the report and of great significance for you all would be the number of fake IDs used to gain access I think it's important to put these numbers into perspective the report lists about nine incidents totaling about 18 individuals this equates to a percentage of [Music] 0.4 I believe that to be very very low while the numbers are shockingly low it still needs to be addressed what we do to ensure that these numbers stay low or go even lower as everyone's goal is 100% compliance Don already mentioned we follow the ID uh the letter of the law we get an ID from every single individual we examine every ID for signs of alteration we record the ID of every single person we do this via our scanners we confirm their date of birth we examine the photo the photograph to make sure it matches the individual and we take another step which is not required but we always compare a height a weight an eye color things of that nature to get as close as possible to assure this is the individual that matches the M ID one other note to Don's comment about the um meeting with the police department Department we did continue our search for we wanted to hire an off-duty police officer to stand at our door um and we only were able to finally find a uh former veteran military who became a civilian Aid and was no long was not allowed to take the job that we offered thank you thank you all right at this time I'm going to close the public hearing and Sterling yes mayor we do have a motion in a second we can go right back to that no need to um repeat that so so I was at discussion do we need to you can have the discussion after that motion in the second before you call for the vote absolutely okay that's the recommendation so we are at all those in favor yes council member McCarthy just a quick comment um you know in my 8 years on Council I think there's only been two previous times where we've made a recommendation of denial but I'll just point out that this goes to the state liquor board and they will do a more thorough investigation than we were able to do so this is not the end of the road for the applicant uh they still have a chance to make their case with the state liquor board um thank you all so we've had um we've had a motion and a second we've had discussion all those in favor I I I I any opposed all right so now we're moving down to consent agenda all items under the consent agenda are considered by the city council to be routine unless a member of the city council expresses a desire at the meeting to remove an item from the consent agenda for discussion the consent agenda will be enacted by one motion approving the recommendations listed on the agenda unless otherwise indicated expenditures approved by Council are budgeted items Council are there any items that you would like to pull for discussion all right then I will um entertain a motion to approve the consent agenda move to uh accept the consent agenda is there a second I'll second any discussion all those in favor I I I any opposed all right okay we are down to item number nine public hearing this is the consideration and Adoption of resolution number 20244 and and ordinance number 2024-25 11 which is our subdivision code um this particular text amendment is specific to the process of how we internally review subdivision um applications this is in response to recent legislation that was um completed at the state level um that makes it clear that subdivision reviews can be administrative so and following that um a attached to the staff summary you have a full marked up version we are doing a repeal and replace and whole because there was a lot of movement uh and reorganization within this portion of code but the substantive changes are actually much fewer than when you look at the complete markup of this code so just to keep that in mind to highlight what these um partic what this particular code Amendment does is it takes uh several former divisions and combines it all into one so all of the processes for plats are now found in the same division just for clarity um for ease in uh staff's review and and as a usable tool it makes sense to have all of those process elements mve together in terms of applicability the primary substantive change is in regards to our modified subdivision process a modified subdivision process is specific speically allowed in statute it basically allows us to skip the preliminary plat process and go straight to final plat um that process in our code was limited to four Lots but the state allows us to go up to 10 so we are going to basically amend that modified subdivision and go up to that allowed 10 Lots next up is the preliminary plat process there are a few submission requirements ments so we did go through those Mission requirements try to update them you know we no longer have a city surveyor so we do have to rely on our applicants to provide us with the details that we need in order to process a plat we now require an Ulta survey that delineates all the easements and incumbrances um we have run into trouble over time when we don't have that information I will tell you for example when working on say a project like um the nh's hospital it had so many easements and encumbrances that trying to read an old title report was just not possible for staff to try to do this and looking at a map is so much easier for all of us internally as staff that aren't surveyors and regularly read legal descriptions um so we have already been requiring this um but would like to codify it the notice of a right to appeal exactions this is we're actually required to do this so again it's just updating this older code code with current standards uh we have updated our project narrative requirements we have added Mountain line or our public transit operator to the list of agencies that need to be consulted on a Subdivision plat and we revise the preliminary plat review and approval process to allow for administrative approvals so ultimately preliminary plats today they go through Planning and Zoning commission then they come to city council um overall all a a a plat itself a subdivision going through the process will result in at least three different staff reports currently so this will drastically reduce um the reporting component on these applications and will allow us to process them much faster um there will still be some items along the way that come to you and those would be subdivisions that have any kind of modification so a subdivision that's asking for a waiver of a standard or is using the planned residential development option and that is frankly a large number of the plats that we currently see you these plats however will only be seen by Council they will no longer go to the Planning and Zoning commission and they will only be seen in regards to those specific modifications so it won't be a review of the entire plat it'll just be a review of those modifications and our intent is to keep them on the consent agenda um with that being said um you know this will still help us review you'll only see it at that preliminary plat that is prior to a very significant investment going before the Civil plan sets um so we we determined that preliminary plat was really the best time to get that Council sign off again we've made some submission requirements on Final plats same issue about surveyor we are asking for closure report signed and sealed um also the surveyor needs to certify that there are no conflicting incumbrances we've added language about dedications and we've formalized our dedication language entirely so for a long time it was just depending on whatever engineer whatever template they were using and so we were getting a mish mash of different dedication language what makes it harder overall to interpret these plats over time so we have resolved that and are asking for our dedication language to be consistent across all Engineers um and we have worked for several years that's actually been in the work for several years already um of course there are waivers that can be granted by the planning director and the city engineer in regards to that language if necessary um this also REI revises that final plat review and approval process to allow for administrative approvals and then provides additional requirements for final plat recordation including all dedications um still being accepted by Council so regard L um you'll kind of see final plats a little bit just because you do have to accept those dedications but that'll be it just those so it doesn't sound like it's completely administrative but really it is I promise um next up is some changes to what was a master development plan we had this provision in code it was a tool to be utilized on a very large piece of land like something like a Timber sky where it gets broken down into multiple subdivisions and developments unfortunately that me development plan came with a very high cost and no entitlement so we've changed this process to a m Master block plat which will grant some level of entitlement and assurance that the layout um is been essentially approved and they can move forward in Con in conformance with that Master block plat uh again we've made that change to that modified subdivision process to allow up to 10 Lots uh we have codified app plat amendment process so app plat amendments don't come up very often but when they do it was very frustrating because the subdivision code said you had to go back and start at Ground Zero so all the way back and do the whole process all over again we've codified a whole new process this is the one place we have a little bit of tension or friction um and we do have a public commenter I know who's going to be speaking on this and I have four options to present to you in regards to this language but I'll just finish up with the rest of this uh We've made a little change to our land split combination procedures to basically make it really clear that water and sewer Services being provided to the front edge of these Lots it's a practice we're just codifying it making sure that it's on the record for everybody to know that we we want New Lots to have water and sewer service and then lastly the Planning and Zoning commission did recommend approval um of this you unanimously recommend approval of this particular text Amendment they were split however on the next piece that I'm going to go over which is that replat language um it had been a long night for them and they they felt sort of conflicted and were across the board um and they wish you the best in making this decision so with that I'm going to just go ahead and jump into these quick alternatives these Mak sense for you to see the actual language up here first is alternative one and this is an original draft with some staff suggested changes these staff we have met with our public commenter and a hopes to try to resolve any outstanding um tensions that we have in regards to this language so uh this is where we got to combined although it's still not at the level I know that the public commenter would like it to be at and their preferred alternative is alternative for in this application um so the original draft with these changes and I've highlighted um we've gone ahead in terms of when you do a replat there are already processes for things like a boundary adjustment between subdivision lots that would not trigger a replat an abandonment of a public RightWay would not trigger a replat we gone in and clarified that that includes private Street tracks as well um and no regardless of the all I didn't add that in every alternative but regardless of the alternative we're all supportive of seeing that private Street Track language is um Coming taking it out of the replat process also reversion to acreage which is basically just taking a subdivision and making it go away those are all separate processes um and don't necessarily fall under the replat so that first that's just calling out what is a replat and what's not um in terms of a replat you know the city on its own initiative can consider these things or an applicant any fee owner of property lying within the recorded subdivision May petition the city to vacate alter or amend some are all of the Subdivision plat um and the petition includes the following the name and address of all of the owners of record of the land contained in the entire plat or and the signature of each of the owners identified in the petition here's the contention as um if the land described in the PE in the petition is owned in common for the benefit of all other fee owners within the subdivision boundaries the signatures of each owner within the Subdivision plat shall be provided unless individual representatives are elected through ccnr or is designated on the Subdivision plat so that was a place we came to agreement on that that that land language would help the difference between um that where the tension lies in this particular section is the argument has been made that um land can be owned by a homeowners association and they are technically an owner um even though they hold that land in common for the rest of the folks in the subdivision and that their signature alone should be sufficient rather than going through and getting all of the owners within the subdivision we did not however want to to lock a subdivider into never being able to make changes because getting all signatures may be difficult or impossible so we've built in a second option which is going through a notice procedure so if you're not able to get the signatures on for the replat of everyone then you would go through this notice procedure and what you would do is you would notice all of the property owners of your intent to replat um those Property Owners then would have 10 days to file an objection if within that I'm sorry 15 days to file an objection within that 15 days if somebody files an objection that will trigger us not doing that replat administratively and we will bring it before you as a deciding body we've tried to build in some grounds for reapproved a plat um the we have made the case that good cause for a replat and these could be things like um supporting goals and policies in the region plan for an example creating better connectivity between neighborhoods and other subdivisions we have lots of goals and policies along that line so um good cause would be in terms of making sure we're complying with all of our underlying zoning standards our subdivision codes but we're also furthering the interest of public and that is option one I'll just run through some of the things really quickly that we talked about at pnz because some of these reflect the council Comm commission and that was instead of requiring 100% of the um instead of I'm sorry so in this case it removes um the city on its own initiative may consider so this one removes the requirement as a whole no right here so instead of requiring 100% % it would basically take it to a majority of 51% of the property owners that was one of the um particular Provisions added in the second was um to remove potentially the oh the second was um based on one of the public comments we received and that is only requiring signatures for the land held in common as when it's in uh situation such as a condominium so when you think of a condominium the piece of land underneath the condominium is actually owned in whole by all of those owners right it's not owned in common by a homeowners association or a separate entity each one of those owners has an interest in that land I have also seen that done with open space tracks and subdivisions where the open space gets individually a portion percentage gets deed to each each and every property owner so it would only be the property owners of the land rather than just an open space parcel that's owned by the homeowners association so that's the differential the um the fourth alternative was based on our public comments and that basically um what it does is it removes the it changes that requirement so that it's only in that situation of the condominium and it also removes the the notification requirements um for the the plat as a whole so it it it takes the section and just makes a replat just an administrative process and there's not a lot for us to I mean it's just whoever owns that tract has to sign that plat there would be no notice there would be no Outreach to um the other individual Property Owners within that same subdivision so if you have any questions in regard to all of this I know I just downloaded a lot of information happy to help in any way possible council do you have questions before we take public comment council member Harris so can you can you tell me a little bit about um a timeline so if a person was going through this process um compared to the old mhm is it shorter is it it's it's actually much shorter we we do get rid of our concept plat which is um sort of an extra step in the review we get rid of the concept plat preliminary plat should go fairly quickly um we're what we're hoping to do with just the pieces that you all need to see or sign off on if there's a modification we will very much abbreviate those staff summaries it'll be very very quick it'll be this is what the modific modification is this is the why um this is how it does or doesn't meet code it won't be the full the subdivision has this many units it or a full analysis of what the subdivision is um and then from there final plat will just be an acceptance of the dedications which you all do on the regular um pretty common I know that Bryce gets up and he'll do things that fall outside of a a Subdivision plat but overall yes we think we can move Subdivision plat much quicker through the process and Grant a higher level of assurance to our clients and then what would you say would be so just for example now it takes how many how long to do it and then with this process is going to take what I would love to tell you a definite number but because subdivisions come in all shapes and sizes um I would estimate that we could potentially cut the time down by at least a third any additional questions all right let's take our um public commenter uh mayor if I may Lindsay sh be with the law firm of damage and Burnham 40 North Central Phoenix Arizona thank you so much I'm not normally a public commenter um I like funny process to be in I want to start by thanking staff they have been great um well do you have an echo on your end yes yes I don't know why I apologize for that well I want to thank staff um Tiffany has worked really closely with us and we really appreciate it um Tiffany did present option four and that is our recommended language so we basically have three concerns one is the property ownership and the requirement of signatures um we do not believe that if you have an HOA track that it has common ownership with other members of the subdivision we believe that if we have an H trct that needs to do a reflect you only need the signature of that HOA um we have previously communicated with staff uh we believe that the signature requirement would lead to litigation amongst homeowners HOAs developers and potentially the city our and for a single family subdivision with multiple homeowners we believe this could be incredibly burdensome the second issue is the notice requirement the notice requirement as presented by staff is the same level of notice that is required for us reone a legislative action this is a ministerial process it's an administrative process the intent is to simplify it as council member Harris said to shorten the process and we do not believe that notice is appropriate when it is a ministerial act and it should not be in the court of public opinion the last issue is good cause after staff explained good cause language to us we understood it however with the plain meaning of the language we believe it's very confusing if we leave the good cause language we would ask that you add language like compliance with the code or furthering the goals of the general plan or sorry Regional plan um if Council does decide to adopt signatures or notice we request that you'd move forward with alternative one uh we believe neither signatures nor notice are required for a plat and therefore respectfully request language for um and allow the pre the replat process to function U the same way as the as a regular PL plat process I want to thank you very much for your time apologize for the echo I wish I was there in person and I can ask answer any questions of Staff or or of councel thank you Council any questions all right and we have no additional public comment is that correct all right then I am going to close the public hearing on this one and deliberate with Council thoughts motions council member Matthews thank you mayor one of the most common themes I hear from our um devel ER Community is the painful process in getting through all of our requirements I'm happy to see this uh Amendment come through um and unless uh Tiffany has some concern about um option four that was uh suggested by um Lindsay um please share them but I I I'd like to make sure that we are making it a welcome uh environment for developers to come we have a huge housing crisis and I know that there's a lot of things that make it difficult to develop here in Flagstaff so um I welcome the change but I'm leaning towards the commenter change unless you've got some concerns of your own that you want to share thank you so much uh staff is actually recommending alternative one um which is um it makes some concessions to alternative for it relieves the requirement for notice if signatures can be obtained if and it then also relieves you from getting the signatures if you do the notice so that staff is not put in a precarious position of amending say an open space tract in a subdivision without having some communication with the homeowners within that subdivision tract but we will support whatever Council decision is um and we will move forward based on that and amend the ordinance accordingly council member McCarthy and then vice mayor thank you mayor um I studied all of these Alternatives in the packet and read them and uh my inclination is to support option two and um I generally am supportive of what's going on here but I suggest option two and vice mayor before you go um City attorney has indicated he has a comment yeah just to follow up on what Tiffany mentioned um the city attorney's office um also um recommends option number one um that said we're just looking for some direction from Council on on this so thank you thanks vice mayor thank you mayor first of all Tiffany I just want to congratulate you for inspiring this room full of folks to pursue careers in city government oh I got a laugh from the mayor that makes me feel good um no all kidding aside Tiffany uh you're one of our unsung heroes and while this work is fairly tedious it is also incredibly important and I after making a little joke I do want to acknowledge um the the incredible work that you do um I'm supportive of option number one I'm I'm I'm glad this is coming to us for the same reasons that council member Matthews has indicated uh we do need less red tape we need to cut through some bureaucracy in order to get our housing uh emergency responded to there's there's ways in which we we can't cut Corners um when it comes to uh our design standards and our materials and certain expenses but this is one of the ways that we can make things a little bit more efficient a lot of this I'm not going to lie to you is is a little deep in the weeds for me um I and that's that's when I rely on staff and and and um uh attorney recommendation realizing that the decision is up to us I really do trust your wisdom and your logic and the the the the work that you've put into this um so I I will be supporting um recommendation number one and would be happy to make a motion in that regard go ahead um I will make a motion if there's no other comments to consider and adopt resolution number 2024-25 and ordinance number 202 24-28 with option number one in place at this meeting we're reading um by title only 20 24-4 then my motion is to read resolution number 20 24-4 by title only with option one is there a second I'll second any discussion all those in favor I I I any opposed city clerk a resolution of the Flagstaff city council declaring as a public record that certain document filed with the city clerk and entitled pc-24 9- subdivision process thank you would someone like to make a motion to read ordinance number 2024-25 [Music] the city council of the city of Flagstaff amending the Flagstaff city code Title 11 General plans and subdivisions by adopting by reference that certain document entitled pc-24 d009 D subdivision process providing for penalties repeal of conflicting ordinances severability Authority for clerical Corrections and establishing an effective date thank you all right we're moving down to item number B I'm going to open the public hearing and we will have a presentation from staff good afternoon mayor and Council my name is Ben Mahia I'm a planner with the city of Flagstaff for your consideration today we have a direct ordinance zoning map Amendment for Lake Mary housing the request is filed by Snell and Wilmer on behalf of Atlantic development Investments the subject site is 4631 South Lake Mary Road it's an existing uh or its existing conditions are uh vacant land it is a proximately 14 acre parcel in the estate residential Zone within the resource protection overlay The Proposal is to rezone the property to the high density residential Zone within the resource protection overlay to accommodate 202 residential units of which 162 would be market rate and 40 would be category one affordable units to give context to the the site it's in a a city island surrounded by cokano National Forest uh to the north of the site is or Northwest of the site is a light industrial parcel which has been a manufactured home park but is being redeveloped as many storage warehousing a little bit further Northwest of that is uh four Parcels in the high density residential Zone currently uh to the Northeast across Lake Mary Road there's Frontier home site subdivision which is zoned rural residential to the oh I already talked about Coconino National Forest kind of wrapping everything around but uh to the West there are additionally uh some single family residences and further west a manufactured home park uh both of which would be in the rural residential Zone the HR Zone allows for a density range of 10 to 22 units per acre in the resource protection overlay outside of an activity center the regional plan identifies this site as existing Suburban neighborhood with a density range of 2 to 13 units per acre so the effective density range for this uh project would be 10 to 133 units per acre to to kind of break down the proposal uh calculations for the density the 13 units per acre applied to the site would allow for 181 units for the base density uh this project again proposes 20% affordable units 20% of 181 accommodates for 36 affordable units they're proposing 40 uh either way that's that's a 22% uh both of which would have an allowance for a density bonus of 45% that would allow for 81 additional units uh which would be a total of 262 units 202 are proposed to go into a little bit more detail about the affordable housing incentives once again uh 20% category one affordable units all allows for five or more incentives to be utilized only one is being utilized that is the density bonus of 45% category one serves up to 80% area median income or Ami and it provides permanent affordability through both rental and ownership opportunities uh this is a rental project the site is distributed into two and three uh story apartment apartments in pink or magenta maybe I've highlighted uh three story buildings in Gray or the two-story buildings so you'll see some of the the massing the three-story buildings are located to the rear of the site uh and there are uh unit mixes of one to three bedroom units primarily in the two bedroom category there is uh majority of of parking is located in garages but what surface parking is provided is is primarily located internally to the site uh there are sidewalks providing on-site connectivity and there are right turn lanes for both uh entrances from Lake Mary as for building design the The Proposal is using 12 different building types I've uh used pastel colors to indicate them and I've got some slides on the uh elevations showing that they're meeting architectural design standards for massing exterior materials and color this project is required to provide 15% common space they are proposing 19% uh and that is largely distribut in amenity areas throughout the site at the time of site plan approval the project was required to provide 5% uh Civic space uh this is provided in those amenity areas primarily highlighted in the green here uh since uh a code change has removed that requirement uh it's it's no longer required for residential only development for just the Civic space the common space is still a requirement this is in the resource protection overlay so a resource protection plan was provided slope and flood plane do not have any uh dimensional uh or any there are no slope and resource slope and flood plane resources that meet the dimensional requirements uh on this site so it's only Forest resources that need to be preserved uh 50% is required for residential projects they're proposing 54% the majority of which is located in a cluster of of trees to the south of the site there was a preliminary landscape plan uh submitted with the the site plan approval and that was uh meeting or exceeding landscape requirements public systems impact analyses were conducted for this project uh for traffic storm water water and waste water for traffic an estimated peak hour trip generation of 81 vehicle vehicles per hour in the morning and 99 vehicles per hour in the afternoon a drainage impact analysis was per performed to study existing and proposed conditions proposed storm water system uh of two retention basins towards the Lake Mary Frontage uh was deemed sufficient to handle 100-year 24-hour storm event and aissa was completed in August of 2022 the site is within the urban growth boundary and can be served by City Water and Sewer utilities uh the water line is proposed to be extended uh on site and looped and Wastewater uh would be served by a pressurized sewer system and uh held private unless the city uh can adopt a pressurized system uh City staff is working on a text amendment to uh be proposed that would would allow the adoption of pressurized systems pressurized system is required because of the the low this is in a low point and they need to to pump it out the applicants held two neighborhood meetings one on uh November 10th of 2022 and one on March 15th 2023 uh approximately 25 to 30 people attend Ed those meetings and identified concerns uh including traffic incompatibility with surrounding development and potential impacts to Nature and Wildlife at the Planning and Zoning commission meeting on October 23rd of 2024 citizens also raised concerns regarding storm water snow management uh lack of pedestrian connections or sidewalk offsite and uh recreational and athletic use of Lake Mary being in impacted by traffic The increased uh traffic on Lake Mary Road a draft development agreement was provided to you for consideration and uh among other things highlights two primary uh items housing and utilities for housing the administration of the affordable housing units uh which includes the use of vouchers for uh HUD housing choice and Veterans Affairs uh Supportive Housing the maximum household income as stated previously for new affordable lease is 80% Ami and it defines permanent affordability as 30 years the minimum lease term is 30 days uh for market rate and 60 days for affordable units uh there is a note that says 12 months for the initial lease term for affordable units uh except as part of emergency rental assistance program as for utilities the city and developer obligations for public improvements to Water and Wastewater systems are defined in the development agreement including future connections and reimbursement uh the sewer system is to be designed to handle anticipated discharges beyond what is required for the project uh to accommodate uh neighboring development and uh as as such there's a reimbursement uh portion of the development agreement which is in line with code section 7-08 it also defines that the pressurized system uh to the high point will be privately held unless adopted by the city and the gravity system from The High Point uh would be adopted by the city zoning map amendments require uh that three findings be met the first is that the proposed Ed amendment is consistent with uh the regional plan the second is that the proposed amendment will not be detrimental to the public interest health safety convenience or welfare of the city and will add to the public good as described in the general plan and the third is the affected site is physically suitable in terms of design location shape size operating characteristics and the provision of public and emergency vehicle access and public public services and utilities to ensure that the requested Zone designation and their proposed or anticipated uses and or development will not endanger jeopardize or otherwise constitute a hazard to the property or improvements in the vicinity in which the property is located finding number one conformance with the general plan or Regional plan uh as previously stated this is identified as existing Suburban neighborhood area Ty type and the project complies with the density range and appropriate development for the existing Suburban neighborhood area type uh bonus units those units that were granted through the affordable uh the provision of of affordable units are not counted towards density when looking for compliance or conformance with the regional plan and this is per uh published Regional plan interpretation so this has been consistent with similar projects finding number number two uh that Community benefits in public good uh of which there are are two primary uh the 40 units of category one affordable housing being provided and 162 market rate providing housing uh for flag STA and then the sewer service to be extended to the area uh currently unserved by city sewer and finding number three site is physically suitable uh it meets the applicable codes and requirements the site plan was approved in December 22nd of 2022 and is subject to the director ordinance zoning map Amendment so it was conditioned that this uh that approval was conditioned on a successful rezoning uh request and uh that any impacts determined by the impact analyses are mitigated uh so the analyses that we previously spoke about were completed uh any uh mitigation was met and uh the offsite improvements that are required uh were the water and sewer extension sidewalk along Lake Mary Road uh constructed in front of the site as well when this uh went to Planning and Zoning commission uh their vote was to forward the request to city council with a recommendation of denial uh on the basis that they were unable to meet the findings if Council disagrees uh you can approve with the following suggested conditions the first is that the subject property must be developed in accordance with the approved site plan and the conditions of approval dated December 22nd 2022 modifications other than minor modifications to the approved site plan will require an amendment to this direct ordinance zoning map Amendment request all other requirements of the zoning code and other city codes ordinances regulations shall be met by the proposed development all terms conditions and restrictions uh detailed within the Lake Mary Housing Development agreement must be fully satisfied in the event the property is rezoned and the developer fails to obtained final civil PL uh civil plan approval within two years of the effective date of the rezoning ordinance then the city May schedule a public hearing before the city council for the purpose of causing the zoning on the property to revert to the former classification of a state residential in accordance with ar9462 uh1 civil plan approval will not be granted until the following condition precedent is met the developer obtains the required approvals from the National Forest Service to locate the pressurized sewer line in National Forest Service property and this fifth uh condition was added since Council uh or since this item was taken to the Planning and Zoning commission to address uh an issue with eligibility of the use of the density bonus or or affordability incentives uh this was originally written there's two colors on the screen uh in Black was what was originally written for the staff summary and the ordinance uh in red was something that was added to the development agreement and we've added it here for consistency with the development agreement and that states affordable housing incentives are being requested for this project zoning code section 10-30 2020i uh includes eligibility requirements to ensure compliance with the zoning code the developer shall Implement a minimum of one of the following items uh with final construction permit approvals the first is to extend the Flagstaff urban trail system from the existing Terminus at John Wesley Powell in Lake Mary Road down Lake Mary Road to the site along the west side of Lake Mary Road in general conformance with the comprehensive plan map 26d uh existing and planned Flag Staff Urban urb Trails as amended November 3rd 2022 uh alternatively uh provide a minimum of five electric bikes with a minimum range of 25 miles at the rental office Clubhouse uh that shall be made available to residents for use for travel to and from the site on a reservation basis and the third that was added since I had originally routed this was uh the alternative strategy or an alternative strategy for providing access to Alternative transit in compliance with Section 10-30 2020i proposed by developer and approved by the city's planning director in its sole discretion uh with that I uh there is a presentation from the applicant and if you have any questions for me uh I do have members of staff to to help me answer any questions you have thank you uh vice mayor then council member McCarthy and then council member Matthews and then council member herro thank you Ben um just a quick question for you P froze here there we go uh you said there's going to be a sidewalk along the the parallel stretch to South Lake Mary is is there a sidewalk leading up to it or extending away from it to the South no it wouldn't be connected to anything that is I assume what you're you're getting to but right well that that doesn't mean I don't support it I think that infrastructure should uh be in place where we where we can have it put in and uh that just encourages us to make the connectivity happen later I would be highly supportive of the the amendment um regarding the the foots access I think maybe that could just connect over to there too it' be very nice that's that's my only question for now council member McCarthy thank you mayor um a quick comment um I also support the option of a foot Trail being provided as defined in the staff report my question is um can you elaborate on what the Planning and Zoning commission's concerns were I mean was it just um well I'll just leave it at that can you elaborate thank you than you got a little little cheat here uh so there were concerns identified uh uh members of of the commission said that it does not align with the regional plan uh that it was incompatible with surrounding development and it was not in the public interest council member Matthews thank you mayor um we have some developments that have already gone in Timber Sky um we're working on um Canyon Dale Rio they I I I didn't drive and map them out I didn't read this part but I'm curious why the commission um is um suggesting that they provide electric bikes I'm assuming to get into town I I listen to the the pnz meeting um I was bothered by several things that I won't bring up here on the Das that's for a different discussion um but I'm just curious why this development they're wanting them to invest in um electric bikes I'm assuming to get into town faster when other outlining developments didn't didn't have that requirement to to clarify that was not a condition that was proposed by the commission the commission just uh did recommend denial that was a condition that was proposed by the applicant okay they proposed it correct they they weren't being imposed on it okay good so these conditions that you've listed then just for clarification um are all from the developer or from the commission no the the first four were proposed to uh by staff to uh the commission uh the fifth was proposed by the applicant to address uh deficiency in meeting the uh applicability for the affordability incentive okay and my last question for right now um just kind of adding on to council member mcarthy um your presentation um cited how it met the findings um through your lens or through your department lens um and yet um listening to the meeting and and what you decided were very opposite um do you can you speak on that at all um because from what your presentation said um and in looking at it you know they've they've added stuff in that usually we have to kind of horse trade uh to get and they just kind of offered it up right off the bat we are in a housing crisis um I look back at um you know all of our houses here in Flagstaff were once in a forest and we're very appreciative to have those houses and we've grown a lot and I know there's some people that kind of push back on that a little bit um because we want to keep our city looking the way it was when we first came here but um and I live off Lake Mary Road and I see the traffic with the development that's gone on there but um in the new hotel but I also know that we have a housing crisis and we all have to look Beyond you know our personal desire so I just want to put that out there but do you have any comments or any um thing you want to say out loud of why you thought the commission had a totally different view on the findings than your department at Ben um if I could just interrupt Sterling sorry about that I I appreciate it just for clarification sake you did say uh listen to the meeting and what you decided um I just wanted to make sure sure it was clear that it's what the pnz um commission recommended um Mr M can speak to what his recommendations were as staff but I just wanted to make sure that was clear for the record that he didn't decide anything um no I know I was I was questioning why their recommendation was and and the reasons why were so different than what you presented and what our staff you know recommended uh um you know staff recommended approval for this item uh with the same U with the same argument for for meeting the findings uh that was proposed today or uh presented today um I I can't ultimately speak to the the specifics as to to why Planning and Zoning commission uh found that those Meeting those findings were unable to be met um other than what I was able to to provide uh in brief um about uh how they how they determine those fining we're not I don't want to put you in an awkward position and I'll hold my other questions till after the um client or whatever we call them presents appli council member Harris thank you mayor just I think I know the answer to this but just in case I'm wrong what is it currently zon what uh currently what does a current Zone allow the the current zoning of a state residential allows for one unit per acre so how many acres this is 13.96% okay I just want you to no no I appreciate that yeah so 13 all right thank you that's what I wanted to know council member sweet thank you my question is for Shannon Jones do you want me to ask that now or okay Shannon can you come up thank you and first I do want to thank you for meeting with me and I'm going to ask kind of the similar questions for everyone who's in the room and online can you explain why pressurized sewer systems are not widely used in Flagstaff and to tack onto that can you go a little more in depth into what constitutes a pressurized sewer system and how it works uh mayor vice mayor council member site if uh if you would allow me um I do have Jackson Salazar water servfaces project manager who was intrical in the development and review of this development of Lake Mar Housing Development and is also the project manager for any future recommendations from water services regarding possible code amendments um I'd like to give him some opportunity to to kind of work through that but I'm definitely here to make sure the questions are answered and to and to make sure that we satisfy the will of the committee thank you hello can you guys hear me yes okay so um a little bit of background on the history of pressurized sewers and Flag Staff um the city has largely avoided any and all pressurized systems because of the topography um a large majority of the developable land and Flag Staff drains to the Wildcat treatment plant so we're able to provide sewer via gravity um that being said there has been several oneoff uh sewer systems that have been approved um and those are a mix of public and private um ownership um we don't publicly own any lift stations at this point but we do own one pressurized sewer sewer pipe um and then could you repeat the the rest of the question I think we're at the point where I was asking um can you go into depth as to what constitutes a pressurized sewer system and how it works yeah definitely um so there's kind of two different uh normal strategies for pressure sewer um in this case where you have a more dense Development A lot of times you do a kind of a small gravity system that goes down to a lift station and then the lift station will pump the sewage up to a high point where it reenters the gravity system um the other kind of strategy is more uh used in single family development and it's uh called like a low pressure system where each house has a individual kind of pressurized grinder pump that pumps out their waste into a a small diameter low pressure line and then that transports the waste up to the gravity system did that answer your question it did thank you I think that's it for now on that I might have more a little later I do have a question for Heather with mountain line if she could get online thank you heather you should be able to unmute and turn your screen on if you wouldd like good evening mayor members of council I'm here online I'm GNA stay in no video because I'm in my car I've been there thank you um real quick I ran into you the other day and was talking to you about this a little bit and so I think you know where my question's going one my first question do we have plans on bringing bus stops out to this portion of Lake Mary and if we don't do you have some Alternatives that you can offer up on getting um some transportation to this development sure thank you council member Sweeten again members of council I did meet with the applicant um and talked about their development and currently Mountain line does not have any service that goes this far out Lake Mary Road and we do not have any plans for transit to expand however our uh last uh discussions on fiveyear Transit planning included that we need to be able to respond as Transit is needed in new areas so we do have the funding if there was a need to expand route to this location those are things that we can discuss we would propose that a service that we would Implement for a development like this where there's a kind of a singular sector of audience would be more like our microtransit model versus our fixed route model um but we would be happy to continue having those conversations and discuss funding strategies on implementing service it's not already in our Five-Year Plan thank you Heather and my last question can you explain a little bit how microtransit Works sure sorry about that microtransit is similar to a pair Transit program where it does offer uh what is traditionally door-to-door service so origin to destination um the we operate microtransit currently in the Huntington Corridor where we bring individuals in or out of that area to uh the closest bus route or bus stops so that is a model that we would uh propose might a solution for this development in aiding and getting people from this location to the closest bus routes and we have two that do run across Lake Mary Road uh they're about one and a half miles from the nearest bus stops okay thank you council member Harris Heather are you still there yes ma'am I here oh thank you C can you you said you mentioned the the fiveyear plan that your Five-Year Plan does not include going out this far uh is that what I thought I heard you say yes ma'am our Five-Year Plan did not conceive Transit service to the location that this uh development has proposed okay and so you go uh you do your plan five years at a time is that correct yes ma'am currently our strategy has been to update that 5year plan uh roughly every five years so we would be due for an update in probably uh 2027 is when we would go out to bid with that plan to be concluded by the end of 2028 our last plan was approved in 2023 so basically about another three or four years you're going out again to do your fiveyear plan yes ma'am that is the plan okay so that fiveyear plan would take you to when the current the not this one the one future five year the one that you would uh do in 27 it would take you to 32 yeah we would anticipate it being adopted in 2028 for the years of 2028 through 2032 yes ma'am okay and so basically five years at a time so by the time you get ready to do your Five-Year Plan uh this the new Five-Year Plan this subdivision if approved would be in existence is that correct or am I asking the wrong person that question I think I am I don't know that I can I don't think I that's okay I'll development yeah I I'll ask the developer that thank you vice mayor just a quick comment for you Heather I would hope that um Mount line extends into Ponderosa trails and other existing communities that don't yet have Mountain Lan service before or at least at the same time as it extends into a development like this just just a thought for you to chew on while you send your car if I may respond actually um we would prioritize all of the existing uh improvements that were proposed in The Five-Year Plan supported by proposition 488 before would we would alter or edit those uh different service areas I was only trying to recognize that when we ask for the community support we did anticipate that we would need to add other services not conceived of in that Five-Year Plan based on changes in housing and job development sites but yes we would prioritize first the areas that need improvements that already exist before we look at expanding outside of them thank you heather I'm glad you had a chance to say that all right Ben I have a couple of questions can you um talk a little bit about Forest Health measures that have been done around the area I believe that Neil Chapman I don't know if oh you say his name and he pops up happy anniversary by the way yeah all the uh all the areas around there have been thinned or are in a contract to be thin the Southside airport is active but the thinning is pretty aggressive in that area it stretches all the way around I17 so the uh prevailing winds from the south and Southwest the the treatments have really been pretty good in that area so it's in pretty good shape thank you yep um let's see um addressing the the zoning because we come across this often um um that a parcel is zoned EST State residential it's all over town that it's zoned this way can you talk a little bit about why that is I can try yeah um so really the uh there's kind of a few answers to that um exist uh the uh when the I'm sorry I'm I'm struggling here um when the uh the zoning code changed to the existing zoning uh classifications needed to uh match up as as best they could to the existing development in the previous uh zoning classification uh so there's not a perfect uh transition between those two codes uh so it's not a perfect system but the original uh zoning of ER or rural residential uh does uh work as a as a holding zoning designation for future development uh to prevent to prevent uh premature development before uh utilities or infrastructure are provided uh so that really kind of uh sets up a rezoning to be able to you uh to um ensure that the development of an area meets the regional plan and is is appropriately sized so there's been no planning process that that puts that puts any piece of land that's zoned to State residential within the urban growth boundary there's been no planning um effort that has placed it in that zone no ma'am the the uh Regional plan identifies this is Suburban neighborhood and that that's the only classification that exists uh uh for this site there's not an additional uh to state that this should be uh estate residential or or any specific zoning classification okay thank you and um trying to get my cursor over here and um if um the property was sold how how um are the elements of the development agreement and the affordability agreement um enforced so the uh uh future property owner would be held to the same uh development agreement and the approved site plan uh if they were to propose a different project altogether uh we'd potentially have to remove the existing or any approvals and and try again and um what is the process for the other departments to weigh in on proposed development I'm thinking specifically like fire um and public works so forth uh so all uh development reviewers have have um a space in in IDs or interdivision staff um review for development proposals and fire did review this project as well okay thank you and um I read this in the in the affordability agreement and I want to make sure that I have it correct so they are um guaranteeing that 20% of the units spread out within the different units would be affordable for incomes up to 80% of the area median income correct correct and they are also accepting housing vouchers and um and housing vouchers for veterans yes and does does that count toward their 20% affordability I I don't believe it does uh allow me to uh ask Jennifer Michelson to to answer hello I'm Jennifer Michelson housing planning manager there's a really uh really quick answer to that question is no the vouchers are separate they're in addition to the uh 20% affordable units and stay there because I think I have a question for you um how many PE and I don't know if you have this off the top of your head but I do see Sarah starting to walk down how many people are currently on our um our waiting list to get into housing using a voucher good afternoon May and Council Sarah Dar housing director um currently as of is today's 18 yes nope as of yesterday um we had 374 households on the waiting list for voucher programs and of those 1,142 live here in the Flagstaff area and they get first dibs um there is a residency preference where our programs house our local residents before uh vouchers are awarded to folks who currently live outside our community thank you let me make sure okay I think that that's all that I had I um also watched the Planning and Zoning Commission meeting and wrote down all the questions that um that residents brought up in their um comments as well as Commissioners so I do appreciate everyone who spoke uh during the commission meeting and at this time I'm going to invite the applicant to come up um for a oh oh you can start coming up but council member site has a question thank you and this is for Shannon Jones again if you can come up so with the pressurized sewer system would it be public or would it remain private and do you have any pros and cons you can share with us on both of those um mayor vice mayor council member swe um so again currently the way the the code is written um it is prohibited for the city to own operate a publicly owned system that's some of the conversations that have been incurring that we've been looking at over the past year and a half of uh what would that look like or how could that be different that being said currently the system could all be put in place and would be private up to the point of transition to gravity um so as they alluded to even in the pressure system there is a transitional point the city would accept and own and operate the gravity portion um and the remainder would be private which would mean there'd be a private utility that would have infrastructure in a RightWay that we share as a public utility um so that's one concern an additional concern is uh right or wrong we do feel that we are pretty good at the business that we do and maybe not everybody can do what we do to the level of service that we provide that being said I think that we run utilities like sewer um better than private utilities would would do um so in addition um it has been my experience that when public and private utilities begin to uh mesh be in the same area there are opportunities where private systems begin to fail and then onus shifts back to the municipality to uh to kind of step in and and correct that action which ultimately means I am aware of municipalities that have um made the decision to take over private systems that were not built to their standards that have ended their life cycle that have not been operated and maintained and become a harder challenge where municipality may look back and say at the time of installation this could have looked different if we' have took the approach of this being public infrastructure from the beginning uh that being said I think a commonality that you will hear as we move forward is that water service is not recommended that we make a decision today that would be um absolute going forward I think a lot of times what you will hear is having the opportunity for the city for water services and city council to look at a case-by casee basis to say um should a system be privately owned or should it be publicly owned and some of the questions would be is well how does this benefit the the utility how does this benefit Flagstaff and if and if there are opportunities where there is a benefit then consideration should be given for that to be a publicly owned system there may be instances where um the risk right the risk of that being private is very minimal and the benefit to the water utility or the city is marginal and may be considered to be private and the the currently private systems that exist um I think in the future there will be some that probably will also exist but looking for that opportunity to at least have a discussion to say is there a reason and a benefit for this being public and if there is allowing water services to take ownership and operate and maintain that as a public system um so again some pros and cons I think I kind of danced around those um again I think we're very intentional about how we operate and maintain our system how we look at asset life cycles how we invest in our Capital plans um how we train our staff and how we really strive to have professional certified individuals Opera in our system and also trying to stay ahead of that we're not accepting things in the future um that may may be less than desired um be because we no longer have a choice that's for Public Health and we would look back to see could would we have done that different um again I think for our private system could look at us other different ways we know um from definitely on-site treatments uh treatment systems that could go in place um I don't know if that fits within this density to package plants um some other some other I would say cons to that is I would just say um always keep it in mind with water surfaces if and when a package treatment plan is put in place um even if they're doing a good job of treating the water I would almost say 99% of the time the solids that they remove are coming back to the city anyway through um our septage receiving um we see that with our surrounded communities which allows us to have to be more robust to handle the solids while not having the hydraulic benefit coming into the facilities and also with that um typically that water is is taken away they the water is put back to reclaim and doesn't return back to the city which we definitely see the the return flow through Wastewater as a resource in our in our utility um I'll stop there to make sure I answered all your questions but those were just a couple of thoughts off the top of my head you did thank you I appreciate the thorough answer of course all right I'd like to invite the applicant up to give a short presentation good afternoon U mayor city council members for your records my name is Mike marwitz I'm with the law firm of Snell and Wilmer and I represent Atlantic development who is both the property owner as well as the developer of this development project um I want to thank Ben for the very detailed presentation in particular going through the the findings for why this zoning map Amendment uh meets the findings for for approval so I'm going to be uh brief um as as I go through this presentation um as this city council is very well aware and was certainly a topic of of discussion today in 2020 the city council declared um a housing emergency adopting uh the housing declaration and that was heard uh by Atlantic development and in response they are seeking to help address that housing emergency with this development proposal and as Ben explained this development proposal bring 202 new housing units to the city of Flagstaff which will be a mix between town home style units as well as traditional flat style Apartments but also to specifically help to address the the affordable housing um crisis or the lack of affordable housing the developer committed to set aside 20% of the units which represents 40 uh units as uh affordable housing units that will be offered to households that earn an average median income of 80% or or less and those will be separate from that 20% from from the housing vouchers as as was discussed earlier um and then as you also see in my my presentation which which I promise to go through through quickly we are doing it with with a development project that has been designed sustainably uh that has been designed sensitive to surrounding properties but most importantly has been designed in a in a way that is exactly what uh the regional plan calls for and so it's consistent with the regional plan uh here's an AA context map of the property as we covered it's located 2 miles east of the I17 along Lake Mary Road a closer up image of of the property again as Ben explained it's currently vacant today um and in terms of our surroundings we're surrounded by a lot of forest uh service land but to our West uh we have what was formerly a mobile home park that is uh the subject of a development proposal for a Mini Storage warehouse and that property is zoned industrial we have some single family residences to to our South as well as one along Lake Mary Road just to the east there and then we have the Pine Valley Mobile Home Park which is off the screen there uh to the Southwest uh the city's uh Regional plan designates this property again as been explained uh for Suburban uh land uses and that is a housing designation that supports a variety of of different housing types including town homes and traditional Apartments uh like this project and this development proposal as well as our zoning application is consistent with with the regional plan which is why we're not here before you asking for an amendment to the regional plan and that is an important point I I want to highlight um because one of the uh comments that you will likely hear from some of the residents uh in opposition here tonight is that a belief that this is because this is a rural area this development project should should not be approved uh but this is um the the land use designation is is Suburban uh that Regional plan was ad adopted by the city council and was also ratified by by voters by by the electorate uh some of which I'm I'm sure you will hear from uh tonight and the rural land use category is a separate land use category uh that this category is is suburban and the reason why uh this was designated for Suburban is a variety of reasons uh but most importantly is is we need more housing as was declared in the housing emergency and so this designation will help uh to support that but also this property is within the city's Urban growth boundaries and it is among some of the limited properties in this area within the growth boundary that's AB budding near the forest service where you have the opportunity where you have vacant land that could be developed to provide more housing to help address the housing emergency housing diversity not just within a downtown area is is important in in any city um and what this will allow is for people that are looking for something other than a single family home or for more affordable housing they aren't forced just to look into downtown you now have housing diversity and and a mix of housing types outside the downtown area as as well uh this is a resolution that that was declared uh by by the city council or adopted by the city council and when adopting it there were a number of findings that that were made by the city council that were stated uh directly in in the resolution uh the first was a finding that over the past 10 years uh the medium sales price of homes Rose by 53% while the Ami only Rose by 14% uh the second was that a sign significant portion of the housing stock consists of second homes uh short-term rentals or vacation homes which further impacts affordability and reduces uh the supply and that there are uh a significant number of people that are living and cost bir in housing so those who are able to find housing are spending a disproportionate amount of their income on on on housing over 30% of of their gross income and so as a result as you can see in that last section down there the city of flag step declared that a housing emergency exists and recognize the need to make housing a leading priority in in the city and it wasn't simply just just that that declaration uh that the city council uh you you instituted action plans that that should be taken by City staff in order to help address that that housing emergency uh and the first was tasking the housing department with adopting a a housing plan uh studying what the under supply of housing was and how many more housing units we need to meet that goal uh and then the second is you can see at the the bottom there there was a recognition uh by the city council that there would very likely be opposition uh to to more housing but in order to combat that you can see it states that the city of Flagstaff will create and Implement a public Outreach campaign to educate the community about the critical role affordable housing plays in a thriving community and combating not in my backyard uh opposition to housing and and affordable housing this is a portion of of that housing plan that that you had tasked uh the housing department with preparing um and it studied the the number of of households that are are in need of of more housing and the under supply of Housing and determined that in order to to address the housing emergency 7,976 uh new housing units are needed with a minimum of 10% of them being affordable up to 80% Ami so 797 additional affordable housing units the zoning today is is a state residential I know there was a question about what that zoning would would allow today um if someone were to build on this property today under the existing zoning without any change you could build a 13 one acre lots these would be very large estate uh Lots which would be in my view an an underutilization of of this property given that is within the urban growth boundary but more importantly that would do very little to help address the the housing emergency and so in order to help um address the housing emergency we are requesting reone the property from that estate residential category to high density residential um and not only is that consistent with with the regional plan which which is a very important element it's also appropriate strategic planning and is compatible with the surrounding zoning that exists along Lake Mary Road next to us we have light industrial directly to to our West and then just west of that we already have existing high density uh residential and so we're certainly compatible with with the zoning that that surrounds us uh Ben covering great detail the the details of this project uh so I I will you know go through this uh just to note that it's a mix of town homes and and flat style uh units with 20% of them being affordable that will be spread between the flat style um and town home units uh the lot coverage for this project is only 28% uh even though 50% is allowed within the high density residential category and I emphasize that point because this is not a project where while the goal is to to bring more more housing it has hasn't been just to add as many housing units as as we can you heard from Ben that with the amount of affordable housing units we are providing that we could actually increase uh the density by an additional 60 or so units but we are coming in underneath that and that's to help create a more of a compatible um area so we're exceeding uh the open space requirements and doing a good job of of blending in uh with with the surroundings uh water and sewer infrastructure has certainly been uh one of the big challenges of of uh the the project and is why we have uh worked uh with your city staff for over three years now to help tackle uh some of these challenges to help bring this project uh to to fruition and it involves a a a number of infrastructure improvements that will be constructed uh by by this developer and that includes upgrading the existing water line within Lake Mary Road uh and to create a new line that'll be about a 5,000 foot extension which will create a loop system uh and what that means is that increases the pressure uh in in the water line um which will meet current fire department standards in order to fight fires and then also of course building a new sewer line within Lake Mary Road uh which not only accommodates this development but would accommodate future uh development in the area or existing homes that that are in the area that are currently on septic would now have the opportunity if they so chose uh to have a chance to connect to that sewer as well a site plan for for the project the only thing um I'll I'll mention here because uh this was covered in detail by Ben is we have the town home units along uh Lake Mary Road and you can see that we've Orient oriented them to rotate them to create view corridors uh from Lake Mary Road so that way we do not have a continuous uh building Frontage along Lake Mary and that was something that was important to to your city staff um and and again I I mentioned that the overall goal of course is to bring more more housing um but this hasn't been a project that that has just decided to add as many housing units as as possible we've also spent a lot of time working with your city staff uh to design the project in a way that's sensitive to to the surrounding properties um and so I'll highlight some of the ways in which we've we've done that um we have uh a residence that's to our South there and so rather than building right up at our setback line of 15 ft uh We've set the the building back a minimum of 53 feet to create additional uh separation there uh with lots of landscaping and trees to add an additional buffer and then you can see we have an oddly shaped parcel with an appendage uh that is just to the east of that uh area in in brown that is an existing single family home uh rather than adding uh units on that appendage to the east a we've left that completely open as as open space and have added Trees and Landscaping in that area as well uh these were the elevations that that that Ben covered so I'll go through these we've seen them um I mentioned that that sustainability is a component of this project and that's certainly important to to Atlantic development and some of the things that they will be doing is first they will be participating in the epa's energy star certification program which is one of the more stringent uh Federal uh sustainability CER certification programs and then there are a lot of uh materials and design features that are implemented to ensure that the project is built uh sustainably that are highlighted on this slide from High Energy Efficiency ratio HVAC units uh energy efficient windows low uh flow water fixtures energy star appliances uh solar panels uh will be added to this development to offset 120% of the common area electricity there will be 10 uh uh electric vehicle charging uh stations that are provided and then of course it will be in all um electric development without gas I know those 2D uh renderings don't always do a good job of showing what what the project would look like upon completion and so we had uh these renderings prepared to show a street view images of what the project would look like and so this is an image of the town home units that are along Lake Mary Road there and then this is at the the main entrance and you can see one of the features of this project is improving uh Lake Mary to create right turn uh deceleration Lanes so that Vehicles can safely uh pull over without blocking traffic when making um a turn into this project and then here's in uh in aerial rendering um so I mentioned that we are exceeding uh the the open space requirements are well under the the lot coverage and with buildings at just two and three stories in height uh this this is what you get um and you know I think we've done a good job of balancing the needs of adding more additional housing uh in response to the housing emergency but also of course making sure that we're designing in a way that's compatible with with the surroundings and helps to blend in with the surroundings as well uh and so with that I'll end there um we would respectfully ask that you uh adopt the the recommendation of of staff and read uh for the first time uh this ordinance um and I would be happy to answer any questions that that you have I I do mayor if if I may um I would like the opportunity to reserve a little bit of time after public comment for for a short rebuttal if I may I'm sure that there will be questions for you um after that as well so council do you have any questions for the applicant before we open it to um public comment nope council do you have any questions all right so we are going to thank you we're going to start public comment and um many of you probably haven't been to a council meeting in a while and we do not allow expressions of opposition or support like no clapping no booing hissing whatever and um also we have at least one card here that has multiple people that they're speaking for and so I'm going to be giving this person 10 minutes to speak but I need to have everyone who's on this card stand up and um and just know that if this person is speaking for you then you don't have the opportunity to speak yourself later so could by um Marilyn Stevenson you're the first one thank okay so so all right so you are first and you have three minutes hello everyone it's a pleasure to meet all of you um I am here to speak for myself and ask you implore you to please deny the request for high density can you hear me okay thanks all right is that better perfect I'm here to ask that you please deny this high density request I understand and I'm watching and listening all of these wonderful things that are being promised sidewalks and more housing and everything and I would have to say that what Flagstaff is missing is the ability for people to buy homes something permanent and I understand this term of permanent affordable housing for 30 years well people come here and they make careers they make homes they make lives l Mary already has a lot of high density homes we have a ton of apartments that we just completed what three projects there's one that's being completed now I just ask that we use the limited land that we have in this city to build permanent residents that people can actually be neighbors I think that there would be a lot of people in this community who would feel differently about this development if it meant we could actually have real neighbors who who we going to stay my home is one of these ones on Lake Mary that's going to be completely surrounded by this project also the sewer lift my understanding will be right outside of my home the the idea that it's going to be managed privately and maybe hopefully the city will adopt it in case there's a problem is terrifying to me especially because it's something that Flag Staff has leaned away from I live there I've heard the stories about flooding and everything and I I'm aware that you guys pay attention to those kinds of things I just ask please do not be enamored by the promises of ebikes and you know they're going to I love that they're giving you know vouchers to Veterans man how do you say no to that I just I think that there's a better way around this and and I know that there's resources here you guys are the ones in charge so I'm asking please find a better solution and ask them to do it that's it thank you Tom boas hello mayor city council my name is Tom bogas I have uh lived here in Flagstaff for almost 40 years moved up here with my wife went to Northern Arizona graduated construction management um over 30 years ago my kids four children also live here also several of my boys graduated from Northern Arizona University own businesses and now I have grandkids here in flag so I've been in town a long time uh certainly been a a local here um been a scout master business owner and have owned several businesses I was a contractor and built several of the houses um some of the actual subdivisions Wagon Trail Estates right inside Ponderosa Trails um and built houses here for years and years before I got into commercial development and I can just say I hear you know the previous person and I I I hear the tension with regards to the land you'll probably hear people say we don't want to build on these vacant land pieces but I can assure that everyone sitting in this room at one point that land was vacant and this is difficult the blessing here in Flagstaff I want to tell you is that we have limited land and lots and lots of for service so the projects that are left yet to do and with the housing crisis and the things that face us you know I would just encourage you to consider um that this project is a good project these are quality developers Atlantic has won several Awards down in Phoenix from the housing department um I know this father father daughter team personally they're sensitive to the area sensitive to the community I know it's difficult to develop a piece of vacant land especially on Lake Mary Road I'm a Avid Outdoorsman I ride my bike up and down Lake Mary Road I understand but many of the same people that might be opposed also access that road that back in the 90s when I was a college student became a developer and a contractor built their houses and then now it's you know not in my backyard so we won't become Phoenix we won't become Mesa or everything else sprawling and sprawling because of our limited amount of land and we're going to have to go up if we're not going if we're going to even touch this housing crisis it has to go vertical and it looks oh it's ugly it's going vertical but you know there's a point just across the street is Forest Service so think of the blessing of the 200 people that might be blessed to get on a bike and ride like many of us get to ride bikes down Lake Mary Road and go out to Lake Mary and fish and paddle their canoes and such so many people want to share in this and I hear the ownership piece um we're trying to do that been part of different projects here in town bringing that ownership piece to Flagstaff and so I'm in support of this project and want to thank you for your time thank you Joseph Lea mayor consel um I'm also here to show public support for this project I know Atlantic very well I was actually at the last dinner they got an award for they're an extraordinary team and they really really do care I know the mar I don't Mark very well I have deep types here as myself my daughter graduated from high school here my wife's from here grew up raised I love the views I I have a house here with views that are to die for so I get the argument I get the opposition but in Phoenix I'm also an affordable housing developer I focus in Workforce housing it is tough it is really tough and I live I've lived here for almost four years back in Phoenix toown and I tried to do affording and it takes an Atlantic to be able to pull it off a much bigger committed firm the smaller guys like myself we we can't pull it off so I applaud them for the three years they have into this project and trying to bring a a positive impact and all the extra things that they're doing so I'm just here to publicly voice my strong support for them own The Land by the way right west of them the industrial land so thank you thank you Don valich I'm asking you begging you to deny this proposal at all costs at any cost there are so many issues here that have been brought up that none of us are aware of pressurized sewer systems now pressurized water system where did all this come I I was at the both the meetings that we had two years ago 2022 and 2023 none of this was covered anything that was on these boards here was not covered we denied everything everybody that was at these meetings behemi was against this project and they had no solutions to what we had none and now they bring up all this stuff that we never even heard of before which is pretty outlandish what if the pressurized sewer systems break you know and we're down in the valley there and get flooded this is going to require me to do a lot of research to find out what this is all about because I never even heard of it Frontier Avenue has not been addressed at all here all they're saying is they're not going to have an outlet going on to Frontier Avenue so you don't have to worry about our residents going down it that's a bunch of bull they're just going to go around it no problem you don't need a gate there for them to for them to go through you know and if it's closed all the way around that's a fire hazard stuck in there if it burns they can't get out we're down at the end that part of our forest has already been cleared are you aware that a half a year ago we had four arson fires in a row that that almost destroyed us terrified us well I was watching 150 100 foot 150 blazes come towards us from the cleared area that that was cleared by the forest that is supposedly safe now and the area here that they're talking about has not even been cleared yet one after another one month after another I watch fires come down to our unit fine you know they the huge slash piles there that are going to be removed but you have all kinds of Tinder on the ground that will contribute more to a forest fire where are the people going to go every person that goes to this housing unit is going to find is want wanting to know is going to want to know where they live they're going to come down Frontier everyone every single one we don't have the infrastructure we don't have the our go down Frontier I beg you to go down Frontier right now and take a look at it how terrible it is of all the washboards and the chuck holes my frame cracked every vehicle own the shocks have been tear tore out of it because of what's going down there we got to beg the city to come out there and grade it every three months and now you're going to put 2,000 more residents down there where are they going to go they can't turn around anywhere so they're going to turn around in Pine Valley there's no other place to turn around they're going to get stuck on on our one lane road in the in the winter it's one lane we plow it they're going to fall out the side then we got to get out and push them and pull them out so that we have our access space to go to working back and emergency vehicles could come in that hasn't been addressed at all thank you Tim hammer spend are falling off here I've been a school teacher here in Flagstaff for 30 years I've lived in this house for 35 I volunteer because I think the community is really important and that we should invest in it I've been a big brother for four years I volunteer at the Humane shelter I've worked for the Flagstaff Family Food Bank for 12 years some of that 12 years we've been out in the snow the rain and then knocked down by the wind I think this is a really bad idea this development especially for where I am if you see the little square there at the end there that's my house surrounded by all the land that Atlantic owns the back side of my house which is will be the uh west side 15 ft from my fence is a three-story building that's at least 40t tall and God knows how wide on the other side the northwest side they're going to put uh an entrance where four to 500 cars are going to pass by there and they're going to have another twostory Apartments looking down on my driveway in the front of my house and my house will be devalued I think the only crisis that we really have is the crisis of creativity we have don't tell me we don't have a lot of land in around Flagstaff we have for service we got County Land we got state land and it might be a little complicated to work it out but Lake Mary's got three developments already there bu Drive William pal Boulevard is going to be a disaster in two or three years and now we're going to put more on there we're going to have more accidents I see people do you know William pal Boulevard I don't see anybody stopping at the stop sign when it go through there's roll right through it it's a little scary especially if you're driving by they're they're already rolling to to get behind you so I think this is a really bad idea and I feel like I'm being sort of Shanghai to be honest my house is going to go down in value I couldn't buy my first house till I was 40 years old because the teacher pay here was so poor we were like 47 out of 50 States on per pupil funding and it's pretty tough to save enough to put for a down payment so I think this zoning is really a bad idea thank you Brian schmidth good evening thank you mayor vice mayor council members and staff for allowing me the opportunity to speak my name is Brian schmidtz I'm here on behalf of my family my wife my daughter who's for my son who's two and the child that we have on the way in April of 2025 I'm here on behalf of the Flagstaff residents not the developer Community not the people who have a vested interest in the development of this land I am not against development I am not against growth I'm formerly a small business owner uh I saw good physical therapists who wanted to start a family own a home start a life here in Flagstaff leave this community because of the housing crisis I saw businesses close because of The Strain that is on small businesses as a police officer I now see people leave this community because they cannot afford to stay and pursue their dreams I've had family members who are born and raised in Flagstaff leave this community for other places so again I'm not against development I am not against growth but I do oppose the Atlantic development a personal story I bought my first house here in 2010 for $97 a square foot I bought my current house my forever home for $26 a square foot in 2017 the average median home price in Flagstaff now is over $400 a square foot as of October 2024 this development the 40 affordable housing units and the 3 and a half% of just simply the waiting list which was identified today as 1142 people this three and a half% does nothing to address the current housing crisis the current plan to address the affordable housing in this community is not working the developers get richer the average Flag Staff resident continues to suffer I politely ask you to deny the proposed designation change from a state residential it's a high desity renal residential as recommended by the Planning and Zoning commission flag does not need more outdoor swimming pools as outlined in this project they do not need more high density housing with three and a half% available affordable units we do not need high density housing projects where the current infrastructure basic needs like sewer water and transportation do not exist and as you said before still are not in existing areas that have already been developed 20 years after those areas have been developed the current infrastructure simply does not exist and I ask you to deny this resoning thank you thank thank you kraton shoot good evening mayor and City Council Members my name is kraton CH I live at 2140 East Frontier Avenue with my wife and three kids directly um adjacent to this property um first I would like to address a couple of things that I heard from the attorney uh previously um the open space in this triangle triangular picture that that is next to Tim's house is a retention Basin and so when they say that it's a green space I don't think that those are the same things I don't think it qualifies um another thing they mentioned and I know this came up in the pnz meeting with the solar panels for the community spaces I think that is you know a small fraction if that of of the total like energy that is going to be consumed here so to to brag about solar panels to me isn't isn't very special um I would like to um start by saying since this property went up for sale you know three or four years ago we've been harassed and threatened threatened by the developers realators um from Phoenix he told us in an effort to convince us to sell our property to them that they were planning originally to build an RV park or potentially a a um a Native American Church in an effort to scare us away um the harassment went on for months and at one point he had a drone with a video camera on it hovering over our house while my children were outside playing on the trampoline um since then uh now the developers lawyers are continuing with the threats and the ultimatum the ultimatum being either we accept their plan for three-story apartment buildings or they're going to build a Pine Canyon this is a quote next to our house in this tiny lot I think that there are other options that we should consider uh when we're thinking through this stuff um the developers claim that they're here to help Flag Staff address the housing crisis but threats and ultimatum suggest that their primary concern is self-gain rather than the community welfare I do understand that the city's urgent need to expand affordable housing options and I acknowledge that rental units are a part of this solution however the proposed development is ill suited for the specific location due to the lack of necessary infrastructure and services moreover it starkly contrasts the historical character of the existing neighborhood which is in is not cons consistent with the regional plan um this development will be 10 times more dense than the existing neighborhood and it will triple our uh small population in this island of of the city in addition to high density rental units I believe promoting home ownership is essential in addressing the housing crisis home ownership is critical for the community like Flag Staff because it allows families to build and pass down Equity fostering long-term Community stability retaining residents in Flag Staff is best achieved by providing opportunities for homes ownership thank you thank you Kathy Martinez very nervous very very please don't be nervous and and if you could just make sure that you speak into the microphone my name is Kathy Martinez and I live at 2248 East Chisum Trail ladies and gentlemen I have been a member of the area for over 60 years I lived much of my childhood in the icon blue house on the hill that house was actually moved here from Jerome in the late 50s I've watched many changes in my years here some good like having this area Frontier home sites annexed into the city in 1968 this allowed for water lines to be added to our community at the time it was zoned rural residential and has been that way since my mother had affordable rental homes for area residents in in the valley I have gotten married built my home and raised my children and two of my grandchildren in this home I have always had roots in this town and in this area in particular I have formed strong bonds with my neighbors my kids grandkids have been safe and watched out for by these neighbors I am not opposed to growth but this plan does not seem to be cohesive with the current neighborhood the residents will not become neighbors they will be individuals with no roots and I feel that they will not have intentions of investing in our area in the letter I sent you I went over my concerns of the construction and the impact of the wildlife in the environment currently the majority of the area adjacent to the de development of 4631 South Lake Mary Road is zoned rural residential rural residential areas rural residential zones are areas that cannot be economically and efficiently provided with city services associated with Urban living establishing these services will be dependent upon coord coordinating multiple entities what will the impact be on our area there has been no environmental impact study on installing and building the independent lift station for sewer needs of the development they have also stated that they will provide 20% of the units for affordable housing but are using 80% of the medium income not the normal who will be able to afford these units will it be another housing unit that will have multiple individuals grouping together to be able to pay for these units currently many of these apartments and town homes are rented by students these complexes are generally allowed and tend to focus on the needs of the residents rather than the community as a whole I am a widow and I plan to spend my remaining years in the home that we built and raised our children in being surrounded by my neighbors and the natural environment and Wildlife that has always been around me I would ask that the city council uphold the decision of the Planning and Zoning thank you Jackie kta hi I'm Jackie kipta and I live at 2050 East Chisum Trail and I've lived there since 1999 and I wanted to speak to a couple of things one is some questions that you had asked um Mr Mahia that he tried to answer from the Planning and Zoning meeting of why they um why they had um recommended that it not be rezoned and he didn't really I think capture what was said at the planning and zoning and a couple of you said that you had uh watched that meeting and basically what I think what was brought up was um Mr Mahia is saying that uh that the um the requirements have been met and what Planning and Zoning was saying is that for one we don't even have text allowing that kind of sewer so that has not been met the fact that the the um sidewalks only go in front of the um the mega development and don't attach anybody to the mile and a half to get to a the first bus um had not been met and um the fact that uh there were other concerns with what um dedicating a sewer to the to the city would cost the city had not been addressed and also something about some type of um lowincome uh application that the the lawyer said they had made had not been provisioned for um what was that Ben litech had not been addressed as um considered in their zoning increase they had uh applied for more population and um so I just wanted to bring that up and then the other thing I wanted to say was that in in the current Planning and Zoning um um er allows single family homes and large Lots limited Agriculture and that's the that's the community we live in we have horses and goats and and chickens and it it's a very different Community than what's going to get plunked right in the middle of us and that will change and I'm asking you to please um listen to what your um Planning and Zoning commission recommended and uh not approve this thank you thank you Brian Den mayor city council thank you for your time my name is Brian Den I've been at uh 2116 East Chism Trail for 20 years uh my neighbors on either side of me have also been in their places for 20 years plus my two neighbors across the street have been there for 30 plus years one of them about 35 years um I make that point uh or to express that point anytime I've had my house appraised over the years uh the appraisers have to go to different neighborhoods to look for comps because there were so few home sales in our area it's a it's an area that is uh with with long-term residents that tend to stay for a very long time it's a a rural community on the outskirts of town as you know uh uh and it's common throughout the neighborhood that people stick around uh my a new house went up down the street for me about a year ago and uh to my recollection and I don't have the the numbers on this but to my recollection I think that's the first new build in our neighborhood in over 20 years most of the houses were built in the '90s going all the way back to to the 60s some uh in the 50s we are also the lowest priority neighborhood for snow plowing in the winter because we live on gravel roads and uh and because of our proximity to you know more higher priority urban areas uh sorry I'm trying to read this and my eyes are not so great uh this isn't an area that's necessarily ripe for Metropolitan expansion considering it's surrounded by National Forest you have to drive through a mile of national forest just to get out to our neighborhood um and this a new sewer system that they that they're would have to cut through the national forest and need uh approval from the national forest uh every home that isn't directly facing Lake Mary Road in my neighborhood is on a a gravel road with a private private SE septic system I I invite every one of you to come out and take the drive out to our neighborhood and just look at these you know decades old rural homes and ask if this giant mega you know uh Metropolitan Mega complex wouldn't stick out like a sore thumb and I I guess that's about all I have thank you for your time thank you Mary and Kent Powell good evening everyone um our names are Mary and Ken pal we currently live at 2102 North Navajo Drive we don't live currently on Lake Mary Road but our my family still lives on Lake Murray Road and people have been talk talking about how long they had been here we have been here over 72 years and so we've seen different things go on in flag um we would like to say that we are against the changing of the zoning from estate residential to high density why are we against it here are a few reasons people don't want this zone change as evidenced at previous meetings more than 25 to 30 people have attended these meetings and there have been three of those the traffic situation is another big concern and it changes drastically from day to day and also at different times of the day despite what some studies might show weather conditions also increase the traffic the traffic hazards in that area of Lake Mary Road 202 housing units on 14 acres would greatly impact this area the empty area that is shown in front right now is also used as a buffer in case of fire concerns it's not just left empty the issue of of affordable housing is also another another concern the project doesn't fit the specifications for affordable housing at one of the other meetings a person asked what the rent would be and it was way above what they could what they considered affordable housing there is no accessibility to grocery stores the nearest one is 2 and a half miles away no no bus line as has been mentioned no sidewalks as has been mentioned this is a rural area and the seore system also is not is not appropriate for here the stretch of road that has been given the this stretch of road has been given the res the designation of recreational Corridor by the Coconino County Board of Supervisors the resolution was part of a plan to improve awareness and safety for cyclists Runners and other recreationalists that frequent the road world class athletes come to here to train and the additional chaos would be detrimental to this water is a big problem also so much building is depleting the current water supply that we do have the area is home to Wildlife beautiful herds of elk call this place home as does as does other Wildlife what people uh what people would come to Flagstaff for because flag step is supposedly a tourist attraction but what people would come to flag step for will not exist if projects like this are allowed people live in a rural environment by choice and do not want and do not want it ruined we are strongly against this measure there seems to be a lot of maybe proposed here this strategy is not acceptable we can't go by maybe this will be done and this this might be done and this might other thing might be done we have to have something that is specific and way before all of this property is torn down thank you so much thank you John Lloyd good evening mayor and City Council Members my name is John Lloyd and I live at 2143 East Chisum Trail I've been a resident uh we've been in Flagstaff for almost 40 years now and we've been in Frontier Town site for 10 years and I too am opposed to this and there you know people have stated a lot of practical concerns why why it's problematic but the main one as far as I'm concerned is just that and I think you know my my community other community members share this sentiment as is evidenced here is that it's just not compatible with the neighborhood and we all feel like it will adversely affect the quality of the community that we live in and that that's the main thing um so so we we highly recommend I and I share um Jackie's concern that it didn't seem like the the fellow from the city accurately depicted the reasons why the Planning and Zoning commission um chose to um recommend to to deny this and you know I'm sure that you know I know we have a housing crisis and I you know I think that we definitely need to address it somewhere but not here not at this location don't do that to this location and I'm you know Atlantic you know tries to make out like they're they're trying to help us out by addressing our housing crisis they're a large corporation and large corporations are only motivated by one thing and that's profit you know and they're doing this to make a profit and that's fine that's what large corporations do just not here go somewhere else find another place to do this don't ruin our community thank you thank you Francis Joseph hi mayor and City Council thank you for giving me the opportunity to speak I strongly recommend denying this request for an new zoning I feel kind of teary because I'm just so deeply concerned about the impact on my life and on my neighbors uh the mission of the city of Flagstaff is to protect enh hand the equality of life for all I got that from your website this does not do that in any way so um I live in a little Log Cabin it's only about 900 square feet uh since 1976 and it was built in the 50s it's it's just my heart and soul and the uh rural neighborhood around me is like what I grew up in and I'm 82 grew up in Sacramento where people help each other out in the winter we have a neighbor that comes with his tractor and plows are my gravel driveway because there's no real ability except for my snowblower to get in and out of my property and and they're like extended family really people have as someone has mentioned horses and goats and chickens and it's really very very rural and this development is only two10 of a mile from my front door it's like the impact um oh gosh the traffic would be enormous especially in the winter I don't know they do plow but it's so icy that I actually have a four-wheel drive truck to allow me to get out onto Lake Mary Road and safely navigate to town if I need to that's just a huge huge deal there just because there's so much snow and ice in the winter the bicyclist along Lake Mary Road would be hugely imp Ed there was actually a death uh to a motorcyclist on October 6th on Lake Mary Road I mean it's just it's crazy enough as it is and I just um have very very serious concerns about the impact on my life on my neighbors and all of the residents that live along Lake Mary Road thank you thank you amethyst Dy hello I have a question for the developer and for city council and the mayor I would like to know why we're so focused on the affordability of this project when there were people that were removed from their affordable homes in an effort to build this so if we're so concerned with affordability why are we removing people from their affordable residences to propose a large development in a small rural community the only other thing that I would like to say to any of you is to remind you that you do not answer to the developers or the friends of the developers who are here to Pat them on the back for a job well done you all are voted into those seats to represent the people of this town and the residents that rely on you to have their best interests at heart and so I think you all need to take into consideration very very heavily how the residences feel and stop voting against what your constituents would wish thank you thank you Dan goral hi mayor and city council my name is Da gerell and I live at 5385 SJ Diamond thank you for providing this opportunity for residents such as myself to speak our peace and share what's on our minds in 2017 the US Department of Justice sued Atlantic development and Investments for discriminating against people with disabilities although a settlement was reached I vote with my dollars and where I do business and with whom is a direct reflection of my character and I hope yours too I'm also curious how this development might fit into flagstaff's carbon neutrality plan carbon neutral by 2030 I think but that's a separate issue Lake Mary Road is one of the most scenic byways in Arizona I love where I live and it's not because of high density housing complexes I'm deeply concerned by the proposal by Snell and Wilmer representing Atlantic development Investments to rezone our precious area for high density housing Flagstaff strategic plan talks about preserving the environment and maintaining Community character it opens with a theme of sustainability which states a sustainable Community does not borrow from the future nor exhaust the legacy of the past this proposal however robs our future of nature access affordable housing and road safety please consider sorry rezoning this area is not in the best interest of our community and does not reflect our core values or strategic Vision I urge the council to reject this rezoning request and to prioritize our community's values starting with safety just a few months ago a tragic accident resulted in the death of a motorcyclist who was dragged a quar mile down Lake Mary Road with a speed limit of 45 mph and limited law enforcement in the area the dangers of increased traffic from a high density complex cannot be overstated sure they can add turning Lanes but they can't add additional officers to patrol that area turning into and out of my neighborhood is already dangerous enough and this development would exacerbate an already precarious situation for residents and commuters on a two-lane road my next concern is that this could be the right development but it's in the wrong place I'm all for affordable housing but nobody is fooled that these 41 potential units of affordable housing will address our City's housing crisis if housing diversity is the concern then perhaps we should look at the scorched Earth lots of 703 South Blackbird Roost formerly Arrowhead Village or 2300 North Isabel Street both broken promises of affordable high density housing in Flagstaff additionally high density housing drives up property values and rents I experienced this in my previous neighborhood of La Plaza via and I'm anxiously watching watching history repeat high density housing put strain on families in our community thank you thank you an Doyle and Doyle 2100 East Frontier Road Avenue Flagstaff Arizona 86005 good afternoon mayor dag and council members our evening now I was on the phone call for a while my neighbors and I have been researching how the Flagstaff Regional plan and the resoning review criteria would support the zoning change of from aate residential to high density residential I've also looked at the regional plans for both 20130 and 2045 and it is true this property at the very corner of the urban growth boundary will most likely eventually be developed however it does not currently have the amenities or infastructure to support zone change from estate residential to high density residential I have been a resident of flaff for 30 years and have seen the city grow and change over that time I am not opposed to growth I have been trying to keep my not in my backyard reactions in check I understand the need for housing especially affordable housing I also understand that this plan could be worse for instance 22 dwelling units per acre as opposed to 14.5 I just want wonder if there is not a better more thoughtful Choice concerning this zone change based on the inclusion of affordable housing in the proposed high density plan and because of the mention of tax credits and benefits I have looked at the affordable housing web map and tried to learn more about the affordable housing incentives policy one of the things that I read in the affordable housing incentives policy is that the distance between the permanent Transit stop to the development shall have a continuously improved sidewalk or public paved trail the urban growth boundaries section of the policy states that the development must have a bus route located within one half mile of the development the nearest bus stop is 1.6 miles from this property and a 35-minute walk I noticed that my timer didn't start but I think I timed it pretty well I also noticed on the affordable housing web map that the current affordable home programs are located north of JW pal Boulevard near amenities and Facilities the area south of Powell does not have walkways or amenities the Atlantic property is an hour walk to the nearest grocery store on an unpaved shoulder next to a busy road my neighbor Jill and I met with Atlantic development zoning attorney in senior urban planner last week during that meeting we learned that to ensure compliance with the zoning code and the affordable housing incentives that are being requested for this project in place of a properly located Bus Stop Atlantic can provide a minimum of five electric bikes or extend the foot's trail from JW Powell to the property this area does not currently have the amenities or infrastructure to support a zone change from EST State residential to high Des density residential perhaps there is a better choice and thank you and thank you to my neighbors for their comments thank you Bryce doie good evening mayor and Council Bryce doie uh resident of the CD speaking on my own behalf econa The Economic Council of Northern Arizona released her economic forecast of our region last year and it it said that uh our community population is going to Flatline around 2045 I don't really know what that means for our community um I haven't modeled it but my guess is that um it's going to put a lot of different pressures on that we're already seeing on a lot of the bands of our socioeconomic um community so that something different is felt in the pressures um to make a living here and my guess is considering our competitive Advantage with regards to climate compared to the large metro area to the south of us is that we will continue a transition into a consumer economy focused on providing amenities and services for those who can afford an increasingly limited amount of housing that housing scar scarcity will continue to price out large segments of the community we can plan and build as our current efforts will attest Workforce housing and affordable housing for the people who will provide those services and amenities to those who can afford it in our consumer Market those are necessary efforts but to me that is merely management of a long defeat I am not yet willing to accept that future as an inev an inevitability grow growth in my opinion is the only way to fight against that inevitability I believe we should grow grow ourselves out of our affordable crisis and into opportunity Flag Staff is awesome a lot of people want to live here and create jobs here let's prepare the way for them some areas will bear more of the inconvenience of this growth than others in the form of all the things people speaking here today have shared but doing nothing not growing is also a choice which will have a diffuse and negative impact to our city and region far greater than the project subject to rezone tonight I encourage you to approve the reone thank you thank you all right oh we have some public commenters so I will take um this in person and then we'll go to online Mary Norton uh good evening mayor and Council my name is Mary Norton um I do serve on Planning and Zoning as the vice chair I'm not here to speak necessarily on that but I just wanted to let you know that I was present I'm listening I'm concerned um what I do want to say tonight is that yes we have a FL a a housing crisis and that is a priority that is what the purpose of that is is that it prioritizes that however um in my my personal view is that a rezoning is the only way that we have some control over how something gets built in an area and um not every development is a great one and and deserves to be built just because because we have a housing crisis doesn't mean that we welcome everything regardless of what it entails and brings along with it so I just wanted to make that statement not anti-growth by any means I used to be in the home building industry um I I know you'll know uh a lot of you know me um I just wanted to say to choose carefully thank you thank you okay online mayor and Council I have Mary E rump Mary you can go ahead and unmute yourself hello um hopefully you can hear me um yes uh my name is Mary Elise rump and I reside at 2283 East Chisum Trail so that's directly across Lake Mary Road from where this development um where this development would be built um I have a few points I want to bring up um one thing I want to say that um anesis brought up earlier is that um um you know as a citizen I voted for some of you and I voted for you know for you mayor and for some of the city council members because I believe that you can you're going to listen to the voices of the people and not the voices of giant corporations who don't live in our city and I'm not at this meeting in person but I've been at several meetings with with uh snil and Wilmer and I imagine that there's six to eight folks in expensive suits and Chinese shoes sitting there in the front row um who obviously don't live in Flagstaff and have never lived in Flagstaff and don't understand our community and I really implore the council and the mayor to to listen to the people because we are the folks that matter and we are the folks who are here for the long term and we're not just trying to make money um you know they use the sales tactic of of affordable housing and as other folks have said there's going to be 40 units and they're going to be affordable but to that that 80% of the Ami not to the 40% not to the 60% to that that 80% so the top tier the easiest way to get the mark of affordable and it's barely going to make a dent in what is Affordable here and on that same note the first uh woman who spoke today giving the public comment and I'm sorry I didn't get her name but she um commented on signs of of housing in the past year and it it sounds like things are improving already in Flagstaff that rents are kind of leveling out that um occu the rates of of um occupied residences are are starting to lower so there are more unoccupied residences than there have been and so I think it's time before we approve of of big projects like this we should reassess whether the housing crisis is still a crisis there's definitely a crisis in the price of housing in Flagstaff but whether or not that means we need more housing really needs to be reassessed before something like this is approved um also you know a lot of folks have talked about our rural area and that this is um you know it's a community and we enjoy the idea that it is rural but also um there's a couple things that go with that one is that we don't have any cell phone service and when this has been brought up with companies companies like Verizon and T-Mobile are not interested in bringing cell phone service to our area um and also the idea of electric bikes is is um is is really silly they're really hard to maintain really expensive my husband is a bicy mechanic at flag bike rev downtown and um it cost $80 to replace the tire in one of those and they're not going to work when there's snow and rain and so that's not that's a kind of a silly thing for them to throw out about um thank you Mary our next commenter is Jill Cooper Jill you may go ahead and address mayor and councel thank you Council for the opportunity to speak today and for your work in the city I want this rezoning request to be denied and the site plan also be denied approval I'd like to start with a couple of questions for consideration where can we maintain a place for estate residential neighborhoods if not on the edge of the city limits where no utilities or public transportation exist Benton answered the question about how the development agreement must be followed if the property sold prior to development but what happens 5 years after after the development is finished with regard to the agreements on portability for example the attorney for the developer noted that in his view one unit per acre is an underutilization of the land is it critical what the attorney for the developer who does not live in this community believes to be true about the utilization of the land we should be talking about how to bring down the density not hearing about how they will then just go and build expensive Estates with regard to the first finding discussed concerning whether or not this complies with the regional plan that this area should be Suburban I'd like to state that this highdensity residential resoning is an extreme example of suburban and we just like to see a lower density with regard to the second finding Community benefits and public good were mentioned but unaddressed were other considerations of safety convenience and public interest 99 cars per hour for instance is a significant amount of traffic in the area and poses poses a significant problem at the intersection of JW pal and Lake Mary Road where it is already very difficult diffult and dangerous to turn Southeast onto Lake Mary Road in addition there are many Road users including Runners and cyclists and this represents a safety issue for them please consider what putting 400 people next to the National Forest might do to fire safety and on the issue of sewer being a public good we should consider whether or not this is a public benefit that's desired and also the contingencies that have already been posed um such as permitting on the forest service land Etc another issue brought to my attention in the meeting with the attorneys is is that there's actually also not enough water pressure to serve the density of the community and this is another reason that the findings have not been met with regard to utility infrastructure and will have to be upgraded the discussion around microtransit options is a great illustration of why this resoning does not make sense the development is simply too far out and will not benefit a large enough part of the population and Flag Staff and need of public transportation like the other areas mentioned previously the problem with some of the arguments they were making around how they're making less how they're taking less Green Space and less density um is important because it actually shows how it doesn't fit in this area and they're trying to figure out how to make it fit we just need to bring down the density I'm not opposed to the development we just need to bring down the density on this property and deny the rezoning for high density residential thank you thank you mayor our next commenter is going to be Jonathan Allen Jonathan you may go ahead and unmute yourself and Trust mayor and councel mayor and Council uh thanks for the opportunity to speak on this issue um I'm a lifelong resident of Flagstaff I was born in Flagstaff grew up in Flagstaff and still live in Flagstaff Flag Staff is near and dear to my heart and I um I've it's been interesting listening to everyone here um I try and you know understand where everyone's coming from and um so what I heard a lot of today was everyone saying we need housing not everyone but most people said we need housing we understand there's a need for housing but we don't want it in our backyard and um you know I I understand I live in a rural area and that you know having a development happen across the street while I don't like it I recognize that you know living in Flagstaff is a privilege and I enjoy it and um you know telling people that they shouldn't have the same access to live in an incredible place that we all um have been able to put down Roots is um you know that's a hard thing to say say I have six Sons that live in Flagstaff that grew up in Flagstaff and they all want to stay in Flagstaff but they're not going to be able to stay in Flagstaff unless the housing crisis is addressed we use the word crisis but I hear a lot of people saying yeah it's a crisis but let's not do anything about it or let's not do anything about it here um you know one of the previous speakers mentioned that this is only addressing three and a half percent of the list of um vouchers in the city of Flagstaff and that that means nothing and I would disagree with him three and a half percent is something it's only a drop in the bucket it's only one step in the right direction but we need to take every step that we can um this land will be developed um like the previous a couple of the previous speakers said it will be developed so the question is not whether it'll be developed the question in my mind is would you rather have 13 one acre Estates or would you rather have housing options for hundreds of families and um you know my kids can't afford a one acre estate and a bougie house but they could afford an apartment and this can be a stepping stone um to other housing options in the future of flag and that's what we need we have lots of nice bougie houses and Flagstaff but we need more entry-level housing options for people that want to stay and contribute so um I would hope that you would side with the residents that need a home and um recognize that Atlantic is a good developer with a good track record that's willing to do and add affordable housing and that that's not something that comes along every day and that that re source and opportunity in working with Atlantic shouldn't be squandered and thanks for the uh the time thank you mayor our next commenter is going to be mayor mclud May Mary you may go ahead and address meor in Council my name is Maryann McLoud I live at 2256 coar Trail in the frontier neighborhood where I've been for 20 years you've heard from lots of other people about the lack of amenities and infrastructure in this area so I won't belabor that point but I do have both a comment and a question um I asked in the first public meeting that was held about this development whether the new sewer line would be available for current residents and I was told no that it was only available for new construction what I heard in this meeting seems to contradict that and so I would like that question answered of whether current residents would have access to the sewer line and if so who pays for that to be installed um the other topic I would like to address is this idea of public transportation and um the idea that ebikes are a solution for that is frankly laughable um the salting on Lake Mary Road stops at JW Powell The Last Mile before the proposed development is often a sheet of ice in the winter um I invite any of you to try to ride your bike e or otherwise in those conditions um providing ebikes also does nothing to provide transportation for people who cannot ride a bicycle so I uh encourage you to take those safety um concerns into consideration thank you thank you mayor our last commenter is going to be Tyler D Tyler you may go ahead and address mayor in Council hi my name is Tyler denim I'm calling in just to say I don't think this is a perfect project but on net I do think it's a positive for the community and I also wanted to push back to call to push back against some of the anti- renter sentiment that was voiced So speaking for my for my personal story when I first moved to Flagstaff for um the first three years of My Life After College I had to rent because I did not have the financial resources to buy a home if I hadn't had the option to rent out of what has been described as high density housing I never could have put down roots in this community I wouldn't be here today um and as I was listening in to the initial Council discussion and presentation I was also confused about two points and if possible would just appreciate some clarification first there was a lot of concern about the bus line not currently servicing the area but the development is required to include a large amount of parking given the size of the parking subsidy the intent seems to be to have all of the residents drive it seems contradictory to uh worry about bus access when we've required so much car parking on site so some clarification would be appreciated there uh second there were several mentions of the height to the building three stories compared to the surrounding one-story homes um I was a little bit confused and not really following that because this situation is very common in flag stuff like all across Southside and downtown there are three-story buildings situated next to one-story homes that's actually the situation with um the home that I live in um so I some additional clarification on what that concern is would be appreciated and finally I wanted to quickly address the affordability aspect so it's not the be all end all of the decision you may choose to deny the rezoning for other reasons but I think it's fast to pretend that denying the rezoning keeping the land as a state residential will improve housing affordability a small number of extremely large extremely expensive Estates is not better than a much larger number of lower priced rental units for housing affordability and 40 subsidized rentals won't solve our housing crisis but it's 40 more units then you'll get with the current zoning there are a few ways you could um address flag housing affordability goals without this kind of large multif family development for example a mix of very small single family homes mix of plexus Cottage CTS and whatnot but you would need a rezoning regardless for that and I anticipate you would engender the exact same criticisms and that's time so thank you thank you no additional public comment all right um Council I'm do you have questions for for the applicant and staff council member Matthews thank you mayor for the applicant um I did want to just get clarification um on the question about the litech um I'm assuming that you would you are intending to apply for it but that doesn't change the affordability uh components that you're providing correct yeah mayor daget council member Matthews uh yes that's that's correct um this project will happen and the commitment for the affordable housing will will be committed regardless whether um litech is is received for this project and one other question on I believe Frontier Road um is a Forest Road is that correct uh mayor daget council member Matthews yes that's that's correct it's a for service road um and as we note in presentation we we don't have any access to to that road and you have two access um points off Lake Mary Road to the development correct yes that's correct council member house I apologize mayor I withdraw uh council member Matthew asked my question thank you council member sweet thank you I might have more here in a few but my first one is there a reason why the solar isn't on each unit um mayor daget council member site the intent behind the solar of course is you know we want to emphasize sustainability we think that's that's important and we've Incorporated a a number of of features it would be know very expensive to have have solar cover the entirety of of the building uh but the intent is to have some of it to further increase sustainability there does become a point though where you know the the significant amount of cost to this project are are substantial there was a lot of comments you heard about uh the lack of Current public infrastructure in the area and as part of that uh this is a developer that in addition to all the cost of the development itself is agreeing to uh construct know very significant water infrastructure improvements significant sewer infrastructure improvements and so while I you know certainly commend the the developer for for also agreeing to have solar panels offs set the common air electricity um it would start to become um you know very expensive and potentially jeopardize a project AV more I have a question about the water line um will the water and sewer lines be available to the current residents to the the residents that reside in the neighborhoods now uh mayor dag it um yes although there's a it's a complicated answer and I'll do my best best to explain it so um the the sewer line is the water line will be entirely a public line uh the city's able to accept the water line once it's constructed so it be dedicated to the city and then just like any other public water line in the city of Flagstaff other property owners have the opportunity to connect uh to it in accordance with with the city's requirements uh the sewer line uh is a little bit more more nuanced so the portion of of the sewer line that needs to go up the hill which is about the first 3,000 ft uh because the flagstaff's current city code uh does not allow the city to acquire it we can't dedicate it to the city um the city would initially say no and when we first started uh this project the intent was that will continue to be a a privately owned line um as we've gotten a little bit further in this process and I think as City staff would tell you as it's become clear that there's been some more development uh interest in the area you heard from the property owner of that light industrial property to the West that is planning to develop that property we have high density residential just to the West uh the city's taken more of of of an interest um and believes it may be a good idea to amend the city code to acquire um to be able to acquire a pressurized line so in the event that that were to occur and would first require the city code to change then what our development agreement says is that it will be dedicated if the city wishes to acquire it it'll be dedicated to the city and just like any other public uh infrastructure line property owners have the opportunity to connect while it's privately owned property owners also have the opportunity to connect uh but it will be subject to certain requirements that are enforced by by the City one of which is ensuring that there's appropriate uh capacity uh in the city systems and so the the short and long answer is yes there are opportunities to connect from other property owners uh but it'll have to follow the the requirements for doing so Shannon do you have anything to add uh mayor thank you um I think the the gentleman did a very good job um depending on the public or private on who you deal with for connection there'll be a technical evaluation which any connection goes through um but it being public um infrastructure would allow um for the city to be involved with how they connect and how that's conveyed um was that the specific question um I think one of the questions that came up is who pays for it um so I think that's an interesting Dynamic too that can get complicated but I like to keep things simple um typically when infrastructure goes in the customer pays for the infrastructure just like the developer would pay for the infrastructure they would dedicate that to the city um there are circumstances where the city has allowed what I think you hear referred to is like the reimbursement um I would say typically the reimbursement is not from the city the city facilitates a reimbursement if another development were to connect to that system there could be an agreement that the city agrees to that would collect fees from that new development and reimburse um some of the capital fees from the other one um so hopefully that kind of makes sense and um because I think that's been a few questions a lot around who pays for it obviously the customer always pays for the expansion we operate and maintain it um as far as reimbursements again that's typically taking money and reimbursing um whoever's making that capital investment from future developments connecting so hopefully that's sheds a little bit of light yes and please stay there uh there was a question um about the sewer lift and it being located right outside her home can you describe what a sewer lift um would would we would we see it um or would it be [Music] underground all right um mayor I think that's a good question to be honest I know Jackson is still on the line of the specifics I would say a sewer lift station if you knew what you were looking for that you would see components of it what I would describe would be a large manhole um which will serve as the actual lift Basin with the pumps would be in but there are external features um so one potentially could be auxiliary backup power in event of a power outage we still want that lift station to function so there would be a backup generator that may or may not be visible um but if it wasn't visible it's probably because it's buffered and you would see that um so I think there are things that you would see as far as the location um I think that's interesting um I think we have a general idea but I don't even know that that's um I defer to Jackson to see if that's actually been pinpointed where the actual Elation will be placed he may have left for the day too okay um so I think that's should be determined um I think as we continue to evolve through those are um so Jackson and the engineering section for water services those are things they determine um so I don't think I can speak to the exact location of the lift station um but I think there would be consideration given um how you um how you secure that site U again majority would be Subterranean but there will be features um I think that would that could be visible and and do you have concerns about the lift station and the line uh mayor I don't I do not have concerns um the way I would frame it is uh within Water Services we already manage lift stations right we pump U we pump Wastewater we pump water both directions we pump it through pipes this is I would say this is what we do um I appreciate the people's concern because those are the concerns we live with every day um that's why we come to work and we work to to make sure that doesn't um that we minimize the impact I think when customers are not thinking about water services is when we're probably doing the best job um but as well as you guys know um like sometimes things do happen we do have Main braks and we show up in your street um but we do um not just to the best of our abilities but I say better than most of how we respond the customer service we provide and how quickly we restored that service and and work to mitigate any um you know any loss of service I would say okay thank you of course so staff or applicant do you have um items that you want to address oh actually before you do that I'm sorry council member Harris has a question that's okay I would have come back to it sh oh here you are so I heard you mention earlier about um you know how we do things at the city you know we're definitely very uh skilled in our ex well I shouldn't say skilled but our expertise and how we build water systems and all of that have you had any conversation with this group about um what are best practices in terms of those um what's it called the lift station that's right and the pressurized because that's not something that we've done a lot of uh that's not something that we've done a lot of in the city so do you do you have any have you had any conversations with them about that um mayor vice mayor council member Harris um you mean specifically the community that um that's that's speaking out now I would say we have not um that that's not a conversation that we've had but happy to do that now or sometime in the future I'm I'm just asking if you've had a conversation with the developers or the builders or or whoever the people who would be doing uh that work um so we have had conversations with the uh with the developers and the representatives as we're working through the development agreement um but again I think specifically when you look at best bus practices that water surfaces represents is uh I what we consider the basics right but things like computerized maintenance management system where you have a computerized system that tracks your assets um that looks at meantime between failure rates and run times on Motors when we have contracts in place for pump repair companies when we have staff that is equipped with utility vehicles that are on call 24 hours a day again we see those as basic fundamentals of how we run the system but when you step back and think about it those are the things that we put in place U for rapid response for quick repairs um how we track the last life of assets when was it installed um conditional assessments we do our Master planning so again the stuff that we do every day that we also probably take for granted are those core fundamentals that I think build a sound utility that positions us um right to operate a system better than I would say some private entities of course and Shannon um Jackson has joined us but one question um I want to add on to that anytime that um a project is developed it has to be built to City standards correct um that is a correct it's if it's going to be accepted by the city um so I do feel if it's a privately owned we would have less interjection of of what those standards would have to be thank you Jackson yeah sorry I my phone had just died and I heard some questions come up um so I missed the beginning of this question but um kind of based on what the conversation I'm hearing um sounded like you guys were asking about kind of if we did our due diligence on looking at how the sewer system should be set up um and the answer to that I would say is yes um we have consulted with uh uh one of our engineering on calls NCS Engineers um who's an exper expert in this in the water and sewer fields and uh have worked on a a pressure sewer fact sheet um that they produced for us where they went to I think it was at least six um municipalities some from Arizona and some in other kind of topographically challenged areas that have pressure sewer um and got a lot of information from them um and then beyond that we're also working to uh visit a couple other Arizona municipalities that have pressurized sewers and lift stations to uh get any feedback we can from them um and I would say that that wasn't all for this development but we do see pressure sewer coming because of uh just the topographic areas that aren't able to be served by gravity within the city thank you uh council member Matthews thank thank you mayor Shannon um earlier we were shown a map of this project um parcel area and then there's a light industrial and then a um high density zoning parcel whether it's this parcel just developing one acre lots and the others this infrastructure that we're talking about with sewer and water will need to be put in when those developments come correct U mayor vice mayor council member Matthews um obviously that's correct there is a definitely a preference from water services on how the utility builds out and what that looks like and really kind of regardless of I mean density plays in with the capacity but the the back build of the infrastructure um is a set right is is kind of on a set course as utilities expand we have a preference of how that's going to look so to your point um you know whether this is one development or two developments whether it's um right 20 houses or 50 houses backbone infrastructure um Pro pragmatically will look very similar um to provide the level of service to a a watershed or to a sewer shed service area and the the size of the water line um is conducive to supporting uh firefighting correct bring enough water that is correct so typically once you're meeting the fire the fire flows you have the capacity to provide the the metered service thank you council member McCarthy Shannon um we just alluded to there's going to be some other development down there um so with those people have to put in their own pressurized sewage system or will they be two lines like right next to each other um mayor vice mayor council member McCarthy um those were part of the conversations not necessar specific to this development but in general um so again as Flagstaff begins a consideration of move from private because private systems go in today and they have gone in um so the question to your point would be is absolutely that was a consideration if you had two different private systems if the two developments couldn't come to an agreement you could very easily have two pressurized systems in the same RightWay something like a publicly own system we would be looking to avoid that right we would ideally be more efficient and we would have one system that provides service to a to a drainage basin now I'd like to ask the applicant and staff if there are any points that you would like to make um anything that was missed and then I'll close the public hearing unless council members have any additional questions sure thank you mayor daget and council members if I may just like spend a little bit time addressing some of the comments that that we heard during the public comment period and and I appreciate all all the comments that that were made um but one of the things that I noticed is that there are very few comments actually related to the design of of the project itself in fact there are even some comments we heard that it's a nicely designed project but we just don't want it here we we want it somewhere else um we heard concerns about about traffic and I couldn't stand here in front of you today and say that uh this development won't bring additional traffic additional traffic is a reality of any new development because any new development is going to bring additional traffic but that is why we we hire a traffic engineer uh who is here um and they are required to prepare a a traffic study and they've prepared their traffic study which has determined that with the addition of the vehicle trips from this project that the impacts on Lake Mary Road will be negligible and that the Lake Mary Road will still operate at 50% of capacity and that traffic study was reviewed and approved by your uh professional transportation staff as as far as the concerns about the the lack of of public infrastructure uh that that we heard there was you know a lot of comments about well we don't have water or appropriate sewer in in this area and believe me when when I tell you is we spent the better part of three years working very hard with your city staff your city staff has has worked very hard including the engineering department so that we could uh tackle th those infrastructure challenges and design uh the infrastructure in a way that will not only accommodate this project but then could accommodate uh future growth as well and we have our civil uh engineer here that could certainly go into uh very great detail as to the the infrastructure improvements uh that that will be built and all of those are are an obligation of of the developer uh the city is not responsible for paying for those improvements uh it's it's the developers obligation heard concerns about uh the lack of bus service uh in alternate modes of of transportation and of course as we all know the reason why there's not bus service in in the area today is there's not the density to to support it but as you have additional density that starts creating a demand and then maybe that 5-year housing plan with with mountain line looks a little bit different uh and may include this this area so we certainly can't control uh bus service uh coming here but we started to have those conversations with mountain line as as you heard from the representative that that was here uh speaking so that potentially in the future uh there there there could be but uh even though there's no bus service today we we've worked with with your city staff on still providing for uh other alternate modes of of transportation and that's where uh We've proposed to construct extend the foots Trail uh from from this property to its existing connection point along JW pal but the reason why we've also proposed Alternatives is that we ultimately don't control uh constructing the foot drill because it's within Lake Mary Road which the forest service has to approve and so we've come up with other Solutions if if that weren't to be approved which is the reason for for the ebikes um but there's this assumption that that you heard that that just because you know people live within an 80% Ami household that that they don't have a vehicle that that's just not not correct uh those people at 80% Ami are very are going to have a a vehicle because the truth is we live in a built environment where if you're going to live in an area like this you're going to need a vehicle to to get around and that's been proven in Atlantic development's other uh projects where just about every single resident even in their affordable housing projects has has a vehicle so those alternative modes of transportation that we're asking for are are in addition to to uh people having having vehicles there there as well uh the very last thing we heard was you know this is a rural area uh and and we don't want more uh multifam we are not establishing a a new precedent here the the city's Regional plan designates this property for Suburban which supports multif family land uses and we have existing zoning uh next to the property that that is also already high density and then we have it light industrial zoning next to it so we are compatible uh with with that zoning and not establishing a new precedent but more importantly than all that why this project is so critically important and I've repeated it multiple times is that the city Flagstaff is in a housing emergency and we are providing additional housing to to help address it the 40 affordable housing units and the 162 market rate housing units is not going to solve the the housing crisis today it's not going to solve it tomorrow but it's going to help and it's certainly going to help a lot more than the alternative of 13 large single family estate Lots which would do nothing to help housing all that would do is is you know create another opportunity for second vacation homes by wealthy Phoenicians that that want to live here I I understand the last thing the point that I'll make is anytime you have development on on a vacant property it's it's understandable to be fearful of of change that is a a natural reaction but the one constant in in Ever Changing world is is change and ultimately the city of Flagstaff has declared a hous emergency and we have a developer that is seeking to help address that housing emergency by bringing new housing units new affordable housing units and they've spent over three years working with your city staff in order to appropriately design the project and tackle some of the very significant infrastructure challenges so to deny this project uh after that would be contrary not only to the regional plan which says multif family is supportive here but would be contrary to the housing declaration which which declared that housing is a leading priority in the city and that the city should Implement a public Outreach campaign to combat nimbyism as a tool to stop housing so with that and we respectfully request your support for for this Sony map Amendment thank you staff do you have any points that you'd like to end with no I have I have nothing to add other than to clarify the uh the fifth condition a little bit further regarding the eligibility requirements for affordable housing incentives uh so we've been discussing the public transportation requirement uh so that is that is a base requirement for using affordable housing incentives uh there are uh alternatives to that uh one of which is proposing an alternative Transit uh Transit uh plan or or or mechanism for uh planning director approval and that's essentially where we're getting those uh conditions from to extend the foot's uh Trail to uh provide the electric bicycles or to propose uh some alternative potentially the micro microtransit if uh Mountain line is able to do that all right thank you all right I'm going to close the public hearing and turn it over to you Council for deliberation okay go ahead thank you mayor clearly this is a tough decision um I I can recall when I lived closer to the hospital when um that development for lease properties was going in um up by the Mesa how disappointed it wasn't in my backyard but this is where I walked my dogs all the time and we hate seeing that go away but I have made a commitment to um really um champing our housing crisis um a report that um was a couple years ago from I believe econa um in their survey it said um that the city needs to open up more devel land uh with road infrastructure if we're going to address this housing crisis another report shows that 177,000 workers that work in Flagstaff live outside um our city limits which goes against us ever being able to achieve our carbon neutrality plans because of all the um road travel if they have to live in Parks or doni Parks which is several more miles outside than what this development development is um but it's hard I it's hard to um weigh the the positives and the negatives and um we need housing one development one project is not going to it's true it's not going to solve our housing issue but it it helps and for the people like myself and like a lot of the the people who spoke today who have housing um you know we can get a stronger opinion um and and want it somewhere else it'd be great if we could tell a developer you know I don't like where you're developing just pick up this purchase and go plant it somewhere else but we don't get to pick and choose um developers coming in and and honestly it's really hard to attract developers to come in and want to build up here because there's seemingly more obstacles and takes longer um in the fear of going three three years uh working with the city and and making a plan and stuff and I don't even know how much money has already been spent to just be turned down um is another factor that goes into it when other developers are are coming in and yes they all want to make a profit they're not they're not a nonprofit organization um but you know we have to consider what they're willing to put in so um you know looking at a 13.96% try and keep this short because I am uh very much under the weather tonight but I I really wanted to be sure to speak to this one uh first I I really want to thank the members of the community who came forward to speak um I do very much value your voices and I know for many of you it was not easy um or comfortable to to come forward and speak it it never is and so um I appreciate you being willing to do that um there are a lot of things running through my mind right now and a few comments that I really want to focus in on um there was a comment about the change and the opportunities that that happened in this area to create homes for those who wanted to move here um and make that their home um there was a a comment earlier this evening um during the opening public participation about our affordable housing goals excuse me and while we've started to see some of the leveling of rents for studios in one-bedroom apartments um we've actually started to see also some backwards momentum on our goals of providing affordable housing in our community we heard that apartment residents um may not see themselves as as part of the community and as an apartment resident myself uh that caught my attention and I I'd like to assure uh members of the community who may think or or feel that way that um we very much hold our our neighborhoods just as dear as uh everyone else in this community um but what I really also want to focus in on is a comment we heard about the need to be creative um and that really draws my mind to the fact that one thing that we often speak about on this Council and in this community are the need to be both creative and courageous um Council may remember some years ago when we first tried to pass a housing bond for our community to meet that in increasingly dire need um before I served on Council I stood before this Council as a community member and asked if not us then who and if not now then when and I want to ask that question again today to both us as Council and to our community what I think I heard most from a lot of the comments was a lot of fear and and I understand that um I understand that change can be frightening I understand that we have relevant fears about what will happen to the lives we've chosen if we allow the change that we um that we fear but I also have to question how many of these fears only grow if we keep lingering in this holding pattern of not having the will and the courage to say that when we we commit to protecting and enhancing the quality of life for all we mean all and that means embracing some discomfort and being willing to include the thousand plus people who are lingering on our waiting list for affordable housing the people who as council member Matthew stated have to live outside of our community to be able to afford it the people that are wanting to contribute to our both housing and sustainability goals um through projects like this and through their housing choices and so forth I'll end just by saying that change is uncomfortable and it is hard and it is scary that does not mean that we should not allow it I agree with many who have voiced that this project is not perfect however I think it is a step in the right direction and I for one am willing to take that step so I encourage our community to think about that as well um I again want to emphasize I hear your voices I hear your [Music] concerns I just think that we need to be willing to take this step of courage and consideration of a bigger and broader conversation and see what happens when we move in that direction thank you thank you council member McCarthy well thank you mayor um we he a lot of comments from people that will be affected by this development um but we didn't also hear from the people that will live in this development these are people that need a place to live and we didn't hear from them tonight but we can't forget that there are people out there that will come to this development and live there and benefit from it so the bottom line is I will support this resoning with with the stipulations in the staff presentation and with the foots Trail option council member sweet thank you first I want to thank everyone for voicing your questions and concerns and being here tonight and you know one project doesn't solve the housing issue and I obviously agree with that but each project is a step in the right direction and I have lived in plenty of apartments in my long time living here in Flagstaff and during those times I was just as involved and I care just as much about our community as I do now owning a home and the one thing I would like to see and um council member McCarthy I do agree that those stipulations should be in there but I would like to see a commitment from the developer to work with mountain line for micro Transit options and that's what I have thus far thank you thank you vice mayor thank you all um I always like to start by thanking people for participating it's kind of a you know meaningless um thank you but for me it means a lot that you're here I do like to hear from you we have to come down kind of in a binary Fashion on some very complicated unfortunate decision is I want to make sure that you feel heard and I hope you have felt heard tonight I hope you've felt respected and that you've had the chance to weigh in um and I know what kind of Bravery it takes uh to come out here the time commitment it takes to sit here for as long as you have these things are all important they're they're meaningful gestures and I just want to acknowledge that um you know I know this area well I live out in Ponderosa trails and I mountain bike uh around the backside of um the airport a lot I end up in this little neighborhood as I'm out exploring and and making my wider way into the the forest service land uh I also um used the trail system out there a lot while I was training for the Arizona trail hike that I did and so I've been through that Community many many times and I feel like I I I understand it pretty well and you asked us to go out there and see it and I I definitely have done that um just a couple things real quick I do appreciate the preemptive concessions or offerings if that's a better word regarding our um sustainability aspirations thank you for that um hopefully the day will come when that sort of gesture isn't uh isn't something that needs to be um appreciated it's just assumed as a baseline condition I I think we're getting there um but I I I do just want to acknowledge the movement you've made um without us having to engage in that horse trading that council member Matthews mentioned uh the the foots is great and actually it's compulsory for me I will only support this if if it if it does include that I I like the idea that you make available as as a as AEL vment a certain number of uh electric bicycles for your residents that doesn't sway me one way or the other for this I I think it um it's a nice amenity that you'll be able to provide maybe it will sway some residents to move in there I don't know um but I do like that you're making the gesture um so I I just want to talk a minute about the the nimi stuff it's come up um several times times tonight in in different ways uh not in my backyard is what that stands for I think most of us know that but I just want to throw it out there in case some folks don't you know I'm never very swayed by nimi arguments um it's it's funny well it's not funny it's it's very serious but it's it's it's it's something of note um that we we hear these arguments a lot um they come up almost every time we have a decision to make and I don't really find them very compelling um I've had developments in my own backyard that have come in and uh uh you know I've I've had the compulsion to to complain about it and most of the time I've just sort of sat on the side and said well I got to put my money where my mouth is I can't I can't be a complainer right now about this what I what I do want to acknowledge is that you know nism upsets me when I feel that it's verging on uh a dog whistle sort of thing for um racism or classism I don't think the Nim the the arguments that I've heard tonight have anything to do with race or class um I think it's about a rural community that's trying to stay that's trying to to keep a certain cultural um Foundation a certain feeling I don't know what the word is for that but it's a community that's that's been outside of the city for a long time and wants to stay that way I don't think that's an issue of fear I don't think it's an issue of um not liking certain types of people I think it's an issue of of trying to hold on to the lifestyle that you've bought into and I just really appreciate that I I want to acknowledge it this isn't about people coming into your backyard it's about the cific of the area that you live in um I I I you know and and that's not a burden that is endured by other neighbors around the city who are dealing with Apartments coming in there those areas are already part of the city that traffic is already there uh the concerns that come with more people and more density are are something that they're already uh living with anyway this is completely new for all of you um and that's really hard it really is and I went back and forth a lot on this even tonight um your arguments and your your your your your cause uh was very compelling to me um I I think there's already four votes if I've done the count right to to pass this forward and I I I think I will be supportive of it as well um and the reason is that you know on the other hand uh folks in the city don't have the the the privilege and the luxury of using that argument when these things have to come in and the other part of this which is very important to me it's critical is that this growth is already um allowed for in the regional plan it's something that's on the horizon it's something we all know is coming and it's it's going to happen one way or the other uh I appreciate the I didn't even hear this tonight but I appreciate I I think it was unsaid that this is a foot in the door or a camel's nose Under the Tent right once this apartment goes in it's going to create all sorts of other um urbanization out in an area which has historically never had to deal with that and it's it's it's very upsetting it's it's it's a lot to take in uh I think I think that's right I think that's what's going to happen um but I don't think any of us here uh can stand in the breach and and stop that I think what we can do is make sure it happens in a smart way uh in a respectful way and in a fair way that's fair to the entire community and so that's one of the reasons why this should move forward is because we have this conversation a lot and we approve these things and now it's now it's South Lake Mary's turn um and that's not my decision it's just something that I I I see and I observe and I name and I acknowledge so I'll leave it there for now mayor um you know I'm not happy about it I really am not uh but I I see that this is where we are and I hope that you understand understand that I'm able to articulate some of your concerns and how deep rooted they are and I appreciate um you taking the fight to us council member Harris thank you mayor um I just want to add my thank yous to everyone that's come out especially those that have those little babies back there I know they're tired and they're fussy and you need to get them home in in bed so I appreciate you being out and voicing your opinion I'm not going to add any more to what my colleagues have already said because they've already said everything uh I just again say thank you thank you thank you for coming out and the people who will live in those apartments will also thank all of us for doing what is right so thank you again thank you um I I don't have much to add to what has um already been said other than to say that um we do appreciate you coming out and speaking to us and we do hear you we read your emails um we have met with staff we have poured over um every document we listen to the plan Planning and Zoning commission meeting and um heard what was said at that meeting as well and um I think for all of us it comes down to um the regional plan and to our affordability problems and this is just a drop in the bucket but we have to um start somewhere and the city and our nonprofit partners are working very hard to bring more affordable housing online including owner occupied housing we'd all love to see that um it's a bit more challenging than rental housing is in terms of um litech tax credits and um so forth and it's it's important while we're listening to everyone who's reaching out to us and I hear you I think all of us have probably um while in Flagstaff lived in um or had a lot of changes in our neighborhood I know I have um and I'm guessing that uh my colleagues have as well and it is uncomfortable um but in the in in trying to stay within our Urban growth boundary and not continue spreading out and in in in trying to maintain a diverse community of people who live and work and have invested their lives here we have got to add housing so that those people can stay and so that burden falls on all of our neighborhoods and we share in that discomfort so I am going to support this as well and would like to see the foots extended and um I believe that council member McCarthy is ready to make a make a motion well thank you mayor uh before I do that I just want to say that I appreciate that the uh developer representative shook his head yes when uh miss sweet uh made the suggestion that there's coordination that goes on between uh the project and Mountain line because uh I think that would be a real good thing if we could work that out so uh mayor I move that we read ordinance 2024-25 by title only for the first time with the stipulations in the staff presentation and with the foots Trail option is there a second second any discussion all those in favor I I any opposed all right so um city clerk an ordinance of the city council of the city of Flagstaff amending the Flagstaff zoning map to rezone approximately 13 .96 Acres of real property located at 4631 South Lake Mary Road apn1 15-31 a from the estate residential ER Zone in the resource protection overlay to the high density residential HR Zone in the resource protection overlay with conditions providing for severability Authority for clerical Corrections and establishing an effective date sorry we already did it okay and then the next reading of the ordinance will be on December 3rd 2024 all right so we are going to move down I will give everyone if you'd like to leave um give you a couple of minutes if you would leave quietly please so that we can continue on they okay we're moving down to item 10A consideration and Adoption of ordinance number 2024-25 and after this item we are going to take a 15minute break all right good evening staff good evening mayor and Council Bryce Dodie the real estate manager I'm here to talk about a property exchange with one um with one property owner which is right next to the Schultz y it's actually the Schultz y so let me show you where we're at on the map so just north of the uh reservoirs on the city um this is we've Owned a City Property there that used to be um well it still a zoned open space but this was where the Schultz uh basins uh detention basins went in um and so that's what the current infrastructure is on the city side with the star uh on the north um basically the Schultz y has always kind of existed on private property and on the city property and we've been trying to find a way to uh to acquire the piece that's on the private property and this is the kind of solution we've we've arrived at with the property owner so essentially what's going to happen is we've got our parcel to the right his parcel to the left we're going to kind of cut a line in the middle and so we're going to receive the property on the south um which is this piece in Orange and then uh Mr Christensen is going to receive the piece in yellow um it's not going to impact any of the drainage facilities it's essentially just going to function as a larger backyard for Helm um there won't be any development potential on it um but this will allow us to fully control the Schultz wide trail head and uh um essentially open up itself to to Greater management um so we can apply for Grants um we can um provide more amenities once we own the entire thing and so essentially that's that's what's going to happen just a couple more maps of of what we're giving and what we're getting um and it's it's about um we're we're receiving little bit more acreage but it's about an even trade because some of the acreage that we're receiving is currently burdened by by the uh by the road easements and so when you when you factor it all in it's about um Apples to Apples so we don't expect any cash to exchange hands so that's the uh opportunity here available for any questions council do you have any questions all right I don't see any questions hold on where so I will take a u I'll entertain a motion to read the ordinance by title for the first time mayor I'd like to move that we read ordinance number 2024-25 by title only for the first time all second any discussion all those in favor I any opposed all right City Clerk an ordinance of the city council of the city of Flagstaff authorizing the exchange of real property of substantially equal value with property owner Gary s Christensen MD for the Schultz Creek Trail Head providing for delegation of authority repeal of conflicting ordinances several ability and establishing an effective date thank you all right so we are going to break for 15 minutes it is 7:09 see you in e e e all right we're ready to get started okay we are down to item 10B consideration and Adoption of resolution number 202442 and ordinance number 2024-25 and um just a reminder as I reminded the audience previously um we just want to show respect to everyone in this room and respect to different points of view regardless of what those points are so um no clapping booing or the like and um we're probably also tired that you wouldn't want to do that anyway but um Shannon take it away thank you mayor daget uh so again this evening we're going to be talking about the noise control amendments um so just to highlight uh specific updates that we're looking at um is that the noise regulations would apply Sunday through Thursday between 9900 pm and 6 a.m.

and Friday and Saturday between 12: and 7: a.m.

um we started to talk about carving out a downtown area identified as North Route 66 to Cherry Avenue and East from humph to WC Ry Street um we have a couple of options listed here for Council to consider certainly if there are other things that you would like to to talk about you're free to do so um but option one is a complete exception from these noise regulations outlined in the first bullet um and option two is the exception including different hours of Sunday through Thursday between 12: and 6:00 a.m.

and Friday and Saturday between 1 and 7 a.m.

um again just as a reminder uh we have defined noise as unlawful to make or permit to be made a sustained and pervasive noise that causes unre reasonable disturbance of the peaceful enjoyment of another person um and then we include pervasive and sustained definitions underneath that um a few more here uh again measurement we talked about where are we going to determine if the noise um is a disturbance that measurement will be determined from the entry points of the structure on the property of the reporting individual and then lastly civil penalties we talked about four um different levels of penalties that first being a warning the second within 120 days 250 the third again within 120 days 500 and then that fourth lastly at a thousand so that's what we have um structured for your consideration today um certainly we look forward to the discussion um in what direction you'd like to provide to staff thank you council do you have any questions before I take public comment all right first up we have Matthew Dyer and you have 10 people here with you if those 10 people could stand up um awesome okay so Matthew you have 10 minutes first of all I'd like to thank everyone for coming out today and supporting me um and staying through this very lengthy session and sticking out and sacrificing your time to be here and support me so thank you everyone well good evening Council sorry I was not able to make it last week I was not in the city after listening to the meeting I was very upset I've lost a lot of sleep over the impending decision that you will make that will termine the trajectory of my life now that we are getting closer to a vote Craig and I deemed it necessary to inform the public about this very important decision I've been humbled by the amount of love and support from the community these people speaking tonight are my friends my family and the reason that I love the city of Flagstaff you're going to have to bear with me this is going to be a hard talk for me I'm not a great public speaker and 10 minutes is a long time but I'm going to start with this um the comments made last or I want to start with the comments made last week in my absence it was mentioned multiple times that I have deeper Pockets than Miss Ryan and council member Harris even said I was better off if this went to court due to my financials I don't know where any of this information is coming from no one knows my my person personal financials but I can tell you that I'm not better off than than a lot of people in this room right now um I would like uh um i' would like to remind council member here it's not the only Power of Words but also the power of assumptions your words have hurt me your assumptions about my financials are false and if you're making decisions based off them then you need to reconsider them I am a small business not a corporation um you said it would be courageous to stand up against us what would be courage courageous about putting me out of business about crushing a dream that I've been working towards for 16 years most people would agree that that isn't courageous at all and it might just be an abuse of power not letting this go to court because you think that we would win shows how messed up the situation really is council member McCarthy you didn't think this ordinance would put me out of business I don't know where you're getting these numbers I shared my financials with my business not my personal ones that showed that I could lose up to 70% of my Revenue if I have to shut down this early you have been working against Southside for many years now and I have to ask why I'm always being singled out am I not am I not worthy of equal representation from this Council to the rest of the council this is why this is now an issue with Harrison McCarthy leaving they have no political repercussions um if they force this through it's very convenient that this vote is their very last meeting before they leave office seems very personal and a huge oversight that can cost the city greatly this this decrease in Revenue I mentioned early could possibly hurt me even more with the revised times I can't show the end of football games UFC events or any late night sports events this past weekend I would have had to shut down before the end of Monday Night Football before the UFC events before the the Tyson fight that was on I wouldn't have been able to show any of that uh the neighbors want me to close and be quiet starting at 8: and the city decid at 9: I usually open it about 5 o'clock that's only four to five hours a day that I'm going to get to be able to be open and play noise I I just don't understand how I'm supposed to succeed if I can't um if I can't be open at past N9 on during the week I know you keep telling me that it's the music but but we've shown that it's the people so I have to kick everyone out or close down a third of my business on the patio um just so people can't hear voices if you look up the noise complaints um they're all on Fridays and Saturday nights they're usually around 11 to1 um I don't get why I'm be these these hours are being forced on all these other days um there's only about 6 hour weeks and I'm actually considered loud and it isn't music it's still the people this will be the end of every me and everything I've done to get here I've also taken videos which I shared with Council today through via email of the Southside on a busy Friday and a busy Saturday night um you can't even hear the music all you can hear is people talking and I have a deel reader in there and without the that without the voices we're sitting about 40 Deb but then it fluctuates up and down as people are are talking throughout the night contrary to what Miss Ryan has told you we are not an EDM bar I I've have had DJs play EDM in the past and I have let them go I am not a fan of EDM we play happy music for people people to sing and dance to speaking of dancing McCarthy keeps telling me how he loves going out dancing but we are a college bar we live in a college town and times have changed dancing with this crowd happens later than 9:00 since I have opened Southside there have been six bars in restaurants have gone out of business within a mile of the train tracks our industry is struggling we can't afford to have even wor restriction that cost us even more money I light i' like to now talk about what Southside has done what have we done to be branded as the problem child of downtown Flagstaff I've sat here for many meetings now and and have been heartbroken by the way that M Ryan's team has talked about my establishment have you ever heard me say anything negative about them in our discussions up here no I I try and keep it professional and and not as personal as I can but here we are again with my reputation and livelihood under attack Southside has gone above and beyond to be a positive part of this community we tried to do a fundraiser at least once a month in fact we had to cancel a charity event today for a local softball team just so we could be here we work with the hospital local businesses local sport teams and donate a proportion of our Revenue to support these communities we also support a local rugby team we make food for Val study lounge on San Francisco street I'm partnered with three businesses on the southide of the tracks alone we strive to make the safest most comfortable bar possible we've had no sight fights since we've opened no liquor violations no underage drinking issues I even provide drink covers for everyone that comes in so they can feel safer two weeks ago the trash can was also brought up this is after tequila sunrise and I knew it'd be an issue so I took pictures I also shared those with you today I feel like I'm always under attack I cleaned up all the trash no one else it was all gone by Monday morning I was the one that went out there and I cleaned up six businesses worth of trash maybe next year we just need a bigger trash can it's the busiest day of the year at what point do we start to consider that Southside is not the problem in the dispute when is when when does my quality of life and my mental state get any consideration this ordinance ordinance will affect the outside of the tracks more than any other in town why because the neighbors will abuse it and try and put me out of business just like they've been trying to do for the Last 5 Years and doing that they will destroy many other business in the area that have been able to flourish with increased traffic doing to being the ne next to the closest bar or being next to the closest bar to the university before you make this decision I feel it's a necessity for you to understand more about the struggles this Council has put on me I bought this bar less than a year ago this was a bar when I got it and I didn't change the business model I've worked 16 years to get me where I am now and I've sacrificed as more than people can fathom to get this far now my number one concern with a failing is some neighbors in my own government you all sat here a year ago when I bought the a bar and proved me to run the business as a bar with a serious sick liquor license now we're changing our minds and I've already fully invested my whole life into it I'm a first signed business owner and this is my first business statistically I have over a 70% chance to already fail in my first two years I can't run the business successfully with all this going on I can't focus I can't focus on the important an things that need to be done to to R to run a successful business I've had to close multiple days already just to come here and plead my case at this point I do feel like I'm fighting for my life finally I would like to talk about the petition we created only a couple of days ago we got over 2,000 signatures in the first two days that's how passionate the people of Flagstaff are about this this is a choice that people should get to make if this many people are willing to stand up against this in Justice maybe you should be on the ballot and not force upon them again I'll reference reference council members haris with the power of words here I hold the public comments I brought I brought them to read with the petition of the noise ordinance these are the words of the people that you represent please consider the words as I share them with you Stephanie said that she will not support aggression against our communities Patrick said this is a college town with a lively night team this seems like an overreach will not only hinder businesses downtown but waste quite a bit of law enforcement as well Eric want to says just keep down down businesses alive jqu said this is a government overreach at its finest Dylan we need to keep Flaga safe for small musicians isal please keep Flaga a fun and lovable place for all Jeff this is a threat to the economic well-being of the city quit ruining people's fund and threatening the local business local businesses college enrollment jobs and night life Joanna this will ruin local businesses in community communities Andrew doesn't matter what major city you live in the downtown and inner parts of City are going to be noisy Flagstaff has always been in music Town it always should be Scotty who's a great great regular of ours as a Flagstaff local this Noy Nance would rip out the heart of Flagstaff community and the local economy it would close a lot of local businesses make a lot of hardworking people unemployed and the ruin the vibe of this great town please don't ruin the historical downtown of flag staff Elizabeth I've never found the noise here to be bothersome Antonia I've lived in Flag Staff my whole life this has always been a lively town for its size and location we're a college town we're a Party Town we're tourist destinations locals students and tourists all alike deserve the right to enjoy themselves after Sundown please Dylan said please stop killing the Vive of this legendary Town God bless flag these businesses are a big part of why people visit flaxa and adding more restrictive noise ordinance will push people away from supporting these small businesses Brady this is way too controlling especially over a small party of people having issues let them hash it out I have a lot more but I'll end with thank you for listening to me and I hope you make the right decision thank you um could you stay there vice mayor has a question yeah yeah thank you Matthew you recently sent us a couple emails with links to videos and um that's the one I'm thinking of the other one was the pictures the dumpster which is not pertinent here yeah uh just for the record can you describe what you did on those videos and what's on the videos yeah of course um so I have a deel reader it's a mobile one that I I take out there and um I walk out between the two property lines um in the alleyway uh behind Southside and I I measure the volume over usually about 10 seconds I wait until the doors open I wait until the doors close um in that video I referenced my voice so everyone can see um you know how the sound travels and then in that video I said this is the volume with the door open this is with it closed and you couldn't hear any music but you could hear the people talking and you can see the decb go up and down as voices carry um like I said the problem hasn't been really the music like if you look at the noise complaints there's only six hours where I think I've gotten a complaint in that time period um so going back to I was saying if if I'm not allowed to have people out there because of the noise carry then I'm essentially have to close any other questions thank you thank you Lily buard um good afternoon or good evening now my name is my name is Le bushard and I'm Craig's youngest daughter I'm not going to sit here and act like my dad is not an acquired taste trust me I know him really well um and you don't have to like us nor agree with our recent Outreach but right now we are emotional too I want to clear the air as there have been some misconceptions about my family I've gotten the sense that some of you think we are some evil rich family who has loads of money and that's not the case if it were we probably wouldn't be here today we take our riches and just move on somewhere else like others before us instead we are here fighing to Pro fighting to protect our livelihood and success we built from scratch with our Blood Sweat and many many tears we have been painted as the bully and have been accused of being intimidating probably because we are the first to stand our ground as a business we have not broken any rules nor do you have a single citation on our record we have done everything by the book and then some mitigation has been overwhelmingly one-sided I call this propose ordinance into question and ask for the scrutiny deserves why are there no distinctions of zones like an ordinance the state one size does not fit all why is there no distinction between Amplified and non-amplified noise why remeasuring pervasive sound from doorsteps and not decb recorded at a number of feet uh one of the most common standards I found is about 100 feet in residential and 150 feet in commercial um others were property lines but I urge you to look at noise ordinances from around the state and compare their sophistication this issue is not unique to Flag Staff surely if you're interested in interested in this you've done your research there's no reason for the absence of these distinctions besides the fact that they would not favor a certain party I'm here to remind you that we are your constituents too I'm tired of feeling like we are on trial and I urge you to be objective and to make an informed decision based on the data you have at your fingertips and since I went so fast um I'll add something else this ordinance would apply to the south side of the tracks more harshly um and you're going to be affecting the real core of downtown your service industry dozens of workers will be collateral damaged in an already struggling economy real people who live who live and work here too thank you thank you Terry bushard of course I go after my daughter and now I'm all emotional but hi um mayor vice mayor City Council Members my name is Terry bushard I am Craig's wife I'm a mom to three amazing daughters one one of you just heard all in a new graduates and I'm also a business owner I'm sure you're going to hear a lot of repetitive comments regarding the issue with the noise ordinance here tonight it's hard to believe we're still dealing with this I think your time could be much better spent on dealing with other issues like finding a new venue for the roller derby team I don't know about you but I'm certainly tired of it all now I'm tired and angry that my husband myself and now Matt are made out as villains in this situation this Council or at least some certain members seem to seem very concerned about Candice but what about us in our story how it's going to affect Matt city council member McCarthy has stated many times about his concern for Candace to be able to sleep at night well what about our stress we have had many sleepless nights worrying about what could this this could mean for our business and the future of our family's livelihood we have spent time and money to make a successful business we have worked long hours shed a lot of Blood Sweat and Tears we b a bar in March of 2020 talk about stress we built what we have as a family we have missed birthdays anniversaries holidays and more it has not been easy but seeing students locals and tourists having fun enjoying music dancing or just chilling out on on the patio with dogs it makes it all worthwhile I can't tell you how many parents have come and thanked us for taking care of their kids while they're at NAU Southside being their hangout because they felt safe and always had a great time being part of their college experience not to mention the jobs that we have given dozens of students has anyone thought about events like graduation parents weekend Tequila Sunrise I believe all establishments on both sides of the tracks look forward to these events because they are high Revenue generating weekends for all businesses and the city what does that look like for the southside of the tracks since the Southside Tavern W their judgment in January of 2022 for a party noise violation and being criminally threatened for disorderly conduct by the previous police chief it seems Candace Miss Sullivan and Mr McCarthy have had have been on a Witch Hunt you have the data this is not a time to make an emotional decision that will truly affect the businesses of the southide of the tracks I fear this new ordinance will add unnecessary amount of calls and work for our already underst staff and underpaid police department the city has paid for a noise study there have been community community committees which we were not in cluded however Candace was as a result we were informed that Candace was unwilling to compromise at all meanwhile we've made changes left and right we have made offerings Matt has has as well to Candace that she has declined first it's the music then it's the talking on the patio she doesn't want to change in the ordinance she wants the baron thank you for your time thank you Craig bushard thank you Council I think the over helming theme Here will be it's one-on-one and as I said last time why are we doing engaging in a law for a city for really a few residents I'm trying to minimize that number I think it's probably less than a handful against one bar you're looking to use broad Strokes the wrecking ball on a rusty nail it's pretty good analogy you know I just watched that presentation there's a lot that was missed there um things such as pervasive present or felt throughout a place but then contradictory things about measurement criteria how can you have a measurement criteria for the purposes of enforcement whether a noise caus a disturbance should turn from the entry points of a structure of the property the V is reporting how do you determine pervasive that's contradictory language um also just in in brief you are going to have the shortest noise ordinance in the entire State of Arizona if you allow this to go forward it's two pages you got a page and a half of exceptions and you have a half a page of punishments spend a little time talking to your peers at other cities we've looked at hundreds of O noise ordinance throughout the State of Arizona and other places they are far more comprehensive this looks like it was put together in a quick afternoon to hurry up and get this to a meeting um you got to put a little more time into it we uh support the study that was done that we all collectively spent $30,000 on use it why did we do the study if we don't want to use it we support I can tell you my S my family my tenant supports using an ordinance built with that data you have data Mr mcarthy preaches about how he's an engineer actually I am too and I've taken the data I've taken thousands i' I'm up to about $44,000 in police reports that I've was paid for $8 a report so I can take the data UF of hundreds of complaints from one resident and less than a small handful from the rest of the community over the last four years it tells you this is not a pervasive issue it's not throughout it is singular and it needs to be treated as such um the last thing I guess I would say we are still here we are Matt my tenant is committed if this is still a one-on-one issue which it appears to be we will still offer some sort of mediation arbitration whatever that felt was necessary we're here we'll pay for it it's cheaper to pay for it than to pay for all the legal fees that we continuously experience because we continuously have to be here and go back and forth have a good night you guys thank you Craig and I think that um council member Matthews has a question for you you mentioned um mitigation um would you remind us um what efforts you have and what steps you have taken to um try to come to some agreement with the tenant and some of the stuff that's been done at the establishment it during my tenure um once this became an issue um we did reach out um we what we did what we did what we could do if you will um I air conditioned Southside Tavern for the first time since it's been built so we're talking that's about 80 years that building list lived without air conditioning we air conditioned the building uh we put automatic closers on the back door we turned off the speakers they're on an automatic timer during my time where we were 10 p.m.

I'm to understand Matt done 900 p.m.

um you had a sound expert in here one day suggest when he was correct about adding actually speakers so you could go with a lower volume but still achieve density and we did that um we've written letters to Miss Schmidt and or Miss Ryan I'm sorry Ralph Schmidt um Candace Ryan uh offering to take this to some sort of alternative resolution um dispute uh process we've never received any calls back those letters have gone unanswered um I've made the comment to um to Ralph one time across the alley uh my I know my lawyer put it in writing too to air condition the schmidtz Ryan's household so that way theying the summer it would be a little easier on them none of that has been taken up it's those have gone unanswered thank you you're welcome thank you Betsy Hamill hello mayor daget and city council uh my name is Betsy Hamill I am a music educator at the Flagstaff arts and Leadership Academy um a musician and also a member of a board member of the interference series here in Flagstaff so Falla is kind of a well it is it's Community it's community of artists it's a community community of Educators um I want to equate this situation to that community so a few years back students wanted to cover Master of Puppets I agreed next door is an Eng English class Allison grber wonderful educator said you know it's a bit it's a bit loud it's pumping I couldn't disagree so we had a we had a conversation we had a conversation as artists as Educators how are we going to coexist together as musicians as Educators people that want certain different levels and degrees of quiet and we came up with a resolution that I thought was pretty awesome we still played loud but we did it in a way that was communicated um when there's noise ordinances established and I have a lot of background in this because I've lived in many different cities so if I can send information to establish a really solid noise ordinance uh one example would be in Asheville North Carolina um they have very specific guidelines I think the fear here is the ambiguity of the or ordinance itself right so you have um you have gig the gig industry itself who depend on this for a livelihood and it usually goes yes until at least 10 p.m.

um and then you also have the operators the restaurants the venues that also depend on this Revenue um I at one point owned a business um south on the south side it was also live music um and we had a really wonderful working relationship with our neighbor we had West African drum and dance that was pum loud we're talking 90 DB you know at the footstep and it worked out because we had these conversations there was an understanding when you have um am am ambiguous noise ordinances what stands to happen is like what happened in Ashland Oregon or the marching band couldn't even practice during the day because their noise ordinance was so uh prohibitive that neighbors could complain and there actually was issues there so this is where you stand to lose you know when you have a noise ordinance that's am um not uh worked on as a group I would suggest having a committee that includes musicians operators and neighbors and we work together before we come up with an idea of exactly how we're going to move forward because I think if you have all the voices and all those people at the table then we'll actually end up having something that we can all agree on that's fair thank you thank you Jesse Mendoza okay thank you and Alex stasio Savannah vinent good evening City Council Members um I'm savanda Vincent and while I may just seem like another college student to you I'm a proud working resident of this community Southside Tavern is more than just a bar it's a Cornerstone for many and Flagstaff it's a place people call their home away from home their safe place or simply just the best bar in town we attract guests from all over the country who go out of their way to visit because of our welcoming atmosphere we've built as a bartender at Southside I've seen firsthand how this establishment creates not only just fun nights but lifelong memories for guests and employees alike regulars come in to connect and unwind and I have yet to hear a single negative word about where I work um I don't work for oh wait personally Southside has been the best has been the first workplace where I truly felt safe respected and valued not just for my work but who I am as a person I don't work for a faceless Corporation I work for one incredible individual Matt who has poured his heart and soul into this bar he's not just my boss he's a leader who stands by his team and treats us like family Matt's dedication and care has created something that means so much more than what your recent comments about him suggest when you make disparaging remarks about someone like Matt who has nothing to has done nothing to deserve them you were harming more than just one business for example our neighbor Evans fish and chips will also be deeply affected by this decision I've gotten to know the owners who have worked tirelessly to build their dream business on busy week weekends they serve long lines of customers many of of whom visit Southside their success and their ability to support themselves is tied to the vibrancy of our area taking down one businesslike Southside doesn't just impact Matt it creates a ripple effect that damages others in the community for me this jobs my lifeline too I use my earnings to pay my bills and my tuition which I no longer have government assistance for despite these challenges I maintained straight A and I'm on track to graduate with my criminology degree next minut the first in my family to actually have gotten a college degree this job makes that dream possible without it I don't know how L continue to support myself or finish my education by forcing Southside to close you're not just threatening Matt's livelihood you're jeopardizing mine my co-workers and the dreams of countless people who call Southside their second home I urge you to reconsider reconsider the broader impact of your decisions City Council Members I ask you today please don't tear down something that so many in your community rely on and cherish thank you thank you Amanda um love it hello everybody I go by Joe I'm actually the owner of Evans fish and ships uh 113 South San Francisco and I'm also a resident on East Benton number 16 so I have also on the same alley that a lot of this controversy seems to be surrounded upon on two sides um as a bus business owner and as a resident um so I've lived in Flagstop for about eight years now and I've lived from Lake Mary to Woodlands Village to kacina the energy of the Southside neighborhood specifically is why I chose to buy a business and find housing there bear with me I'm not the greatest public speaker please do not worry about that I've also lived and visited many historic downtowns across the western states and I can honestly say the Flagstaff is one of my favorites it's the only place I've ever actually moved back to um I've been here for a total of eight years but I took a two-year break to go up to Denver lived in downtown Denver as well and I can say that this is also a very quiet downtown area um I can leave my windows open at night and I don't hear Southside and I'm on a two-story building right at the end of the alley I don't have an issue with with it I don't know why it's such an issue for some I can respect that people want their kids to be able to sleep in their own homes I can absolutely respect that but I can also expect parents to find appropriate housing to raise their families in and instead families are trying to tear down businesses in an upcoming vibrant downtown space it is generally understood that in downtown living comes noise during the day the night there will be noise in active Urban are areas for most people this is not a pro problem use some earplugs or choose to live in a quieter area I understand that for some families that might not be possible and it sounds like there are other options available to mitigate noise including air conditioning or noise cancelling or noise cancelling uh support living 20 feet from a bar is great for some people but not ideal for others and I'd like to move on to my experience as a business owner uh between the hours of midnight and 3:00 a.m.

on Friday and Saturday nights I am able to make more than I make in Mondays and Tuesdays usually throughout the week that allows me to pay for two part-time employees without those hours of operation I will lose at least two employees and I don't know the success the long longevity of the success of my business without those late night hours I provide a safe and warm place for people to wait for their Ubers and get food after a late night of enjoying our night life if people can't wait in the alley where I have very limited seating but some of the only only seating that I have is in the alley if they can't wait in that alley and chat and wait for their Ubers where are they supposed to wait for their their riots to get safely home the lifestyle and opportunity that exists right outside my front door as a downtown resident will not be improved by quiet hours comparable to that of an HOA or campus housing thank you thank you Olivia Gillette live yeah well I don't have to introduce myself you guys know my name um but good evening um I started working at Southside after I learned the troubling practices of my previous employer Bandos um I was honestly really apprehensive to start bartending again because of the issues that I encountered in literally every single past bartending job and job outside of bartending however Matt the owner of Southside took me in and provided a safe respectful and supportive work environment which I have literally never experienced before in any single job since joining Southside I have not encountered a single red flag after my first shift Matt made sure I was or I complete transparency with my pay and my hours worked he showed me my payub which included all the legal requirements like my legal name my address and social security number something Don could never figure out how to do he also set me up with an app where I could track my hours pay and tips in real time the establishment has numerous security cameras in place that are visible to customers ensuring the safety of both employees and patrons there is screens of sang surveillance footage in the front area the back area and the patio which helps keep everyone accountable and safe what stands out most is the sense of community at Southside Matt makes a point to check in with staff asking how we're doing and fostering genuine conversations this builds morale and creates a supportive work environment where everyone looks out for one another it truly feels like a family here and we all carry about each other's well-being and the safety of our customers on Tequila Sunrise arguably one of the busiest days in the Flagstaff bar scene a group of police officers and firefighters came in and expressed their appreciation for how we manage our establishment they specifically thanked us for being responsible and cutting off customers when needed which said that they made their jobs easier this recognition speaks to the positive impact Southside has had on the community and the reputation we've worked so hard to build I've honestly even considered staying in Flagstaff longer because of how respected and well treated I feel working at Southside in an industry where there are many Shady operators Matt stands out as someone who genuinely cares about both his employees and the community he is from a small town and moved to another small town where he and his business are amazing addition to the Flagstaff Community if the city imposes a 9:00 p.m.

closing time it would dramatically impact the livelihood of the employees at Southside many of whom are students who rely on this job to support themselves through school this change could also be determined be detrimental to Matt's business which he has worked so hard to build Southside has become an important part of the downtown Flagstaff scene and limiting our hours would be a blow to both the employees and the community at large I urge you to reconsider this ordinance as it would have far-reaching consequences for the people who rely on the business for their in come and for the positive impact Southside has made on the community thank you thank you Martin Dyer mayor vice mayor council members like to thank you for your time tonight for letting me speak little dry my name is Martin Dyer I live at 2850 West pton Drive in Prescot Arizona 86305 and although I'm not a resident of Flagstaff I probably come to town 40 to 50 times a year I officiate Collegiate tennis at NAU both men's and women's I've got a season pass up at snowball and uh my son Stephen and Matthew both live here and so does my grandson so we're here a lot government laws and regulations are designed to serve the majority of the people not a very small group of people because of that I find it necessary in fact I find it my civic duty to come out here and speak tonight about this Flagstaff noise ordinance I want to point out several problems and inconsistencies with it the area of this proposed changed is zoned Community commercial that means its designation encourages the development of businesses and Residences in that area and to provide housing and business opportunities for both of those in that area the proposed changes to the ordinance are what I see as a thinly veiled attempt to change the zoning ordinance in this area prior to the the seating of new council members next session the council was informed on October 23d of the changes that a zoning regulation would require and how difficult it would be you'd have to grandfather in the new the businesses that are already there then you'd have to pay the devaluation in the property taxes to the owners that are currently there and I'll guarantee you there'll be a decrease in the business property taxes in that area if this zoning ordinance goes into effect that's going to give you as a city of Flagstaff a pretty big deficit that you're going to have to try to cover to pay all those those costs Matthew assumed ownership of Southside just about a year ago it was a Tavern then it was a Tavern in 2013 well before these people purchased their properties in that area Southside tabern is a business that caters to the local collegia population and it's very close to na campus it's a location where college students can come unwind have a drink or two with their friends play triv play trivia have fun doing karaoke learn to line dance several other activities there and he also supports the rugby team the Greek Community the sorties and fraternities and they're always coming up in new ways to uh cater to the needs of the students I don't have much time here so I'll just close with this proposed changes in the gardeners are not necessary and Behind these changes are just a few individuals who live in that area it's not the city's responsibility to cater to those few individuals just like you wouldn't change the airport because people complain about the noise of the airplanes you shouldn't be changing the regulations here thanks thank you Jill Dyer good evening Council I guess it's probably late in the evening now excuse me I've been sitting here for a long time hello my name is Jill Dyer I'm here because I am angry and shocked about the proposed no noise law that splits the Flagstaff communities into North and South the north is not affected while the South Community is singled out what is legal in the north will become a crime in the South why are the north businesses exempt well because this new law will be harmful to their businesses but why is the city protecting the north side and throwing the Southside under the bus why can the north side break this law and yet it's imposed on the South Side knowing the damage it will cause historically the businesses have been treated the same way they have all had the same rights and opportunities what it's happened to take such a severe action why should the Southside not benefit and operate under the same rules and laws the consequences of this law will put many Southside businesses out of business it will raise unemployment and create empty buildings it's wrong to single out and destroy the southide many people and businesses have worked hard and given their heart and soul to help and build this community the city has already determined this law will be detrimental to the north side why impose it on the South Side would if you your family or a friend worked owned or benefited from the services in this community hundreds of flag steps residents livelihood and access to Services depend on the South Side this is where they live work and go to school I can't help but believe the proposed law is targeted at the South Side this must be this must be because there are contributions are viewed as unimportant or not valued why discriminate and designate different laws for different communities shouldn't everyone have the same rights protections penalties and live under the same laws I don't understand the reason for imposing a harmful this harmful law against the Southside the community structure has been the same for many many years the southide is vibrant historic unique and draws thousands of people this is why the Southside is a popular place to work live and frequent the variety of businesses please consider the Southside as a whole and all those affected by changing the law this change would affect the majority and not not not only a few disgruntled individuals there there will always be a few voicing their dissatisfaction but those happy or satisfied have no reason to make their Viewpoint known or publicize their opinions this will skew the perception of others thank you thank you Zoe Bailey um good evening my name is Zoe Bailey I am here from I am from Maui Hawaii and I have been here in Flag Staff from almost for almost 5 years growing up I was confident that I would never find another place I would want to call home but here I am telling you that Flagstaff has been and is my home while College may have brought me here the kindness of the people in the community I felt in flag Flag Staff has kept me here about half a year ago I came to work at Southside with Matt I quickly found that Southside is an environment filled with so much love it is a staple of Flag Staff Southside was voted best bar and Flag Staff this year because our Collective residents recognize how special this bar environment is on a personal level I can't put into words how much I've gained by being an employee here this is not just a bar it is so much more it's a family I walk into work here and know that everyone around me has not only my back but also the customers back Matt especially Matt is one of the most caring giving hardworking and passionate people I've ever had the pleasure of meeting I've seen time and again his efforts to support the Flag Staff community Through Southside whether that is sponsoring local sports teams or holding charity events his business his family and his employees are his life at this moment to say that these three entities are Matt's entire world is an understatement over the past few months I fir I've watched firsthand the toll that this hateful battle has taken on Matt and how heartbreaking this has been to what witness I encourage you all to picture yourself in Matt's position imagine working towards your dreams for 16 years and then all of a sudden a few self-serving individuals decide that they are going to take that all away from you I want to speak to the neighbor behind Southside that has incited this whole issue due to stubbornness after choosing to live behind an established bar in the heart of downtown Flagstaff since you can't sympathize with Matt I will pose this situation a different way these actions will affect so many other individuals such as myself whether you realize this or not I have had to pay my way through college in order to build this wonderful life I now have here in Flagstaff I've worked many jobs including other well-known bars round town in these other places of work I have faced poor work conditions such as being harassed by customers and co-workers up to the point of sexual assault Southside has been my place of safety if this law passes Southside goes under I not only lose my job but all stability I've created in my life one month before I graduate college Matt loses everything he has worked so hard for and customers lose a safe place to sing and dance and be their true selves I fell in love with Flag Staff because of the kindness of the people and the sense of community I have felt standing in this room today I do not feel that same kindness and I find it so sad council members you have an opportunity to align your decision with your mission of protecting the quality of life for all if this law goes through and Southside is put out of business it will not it will satisfy only a handful of individuals here today in comparison thousands of residents in flag stff will suffer by this decision including myself thank you thank you Brandon bellisi oh you were okay okay Alexis bidinger good evening city council I'd like to start by addressing something that council member Harris stated in the last meeting which was that this is a health and safety issue and I have not heard enough conversation about that I absolutely agree this proposal of the noise ordinance has created a major health and safety issue for my partner Matthew Dyer the owner of Southside Tavern I have directly witnessed him not being able to sleep for months because of the fact that his livelihood is in your hands he has constant panic attacks in the middle of the night because this noise ordinance will take away everything that he has worked his entire life for in addition his Stress and Anxiety due to this issue has caused me a lack of sleep because I'm worried about him and his future I have seen this man put countless hours into his business and Community I've never seen someone put their heart and soul into something more than Matt has Miss Ryan asked in the last meeting to please do what is right and not is what po not what is popular I can hardly see how running someone out of business is the right thing to do furthermore certain people seem to be under the impression that this ordinance is the is only impacting one man this ordinance is affecting Matt and his business it's affecting Craig and his property employees family members loved ones and one of the main demographics of the community the college students I've seen what Matt has done for this community and he has certainly made me feel a part of it when I hadn't before I know many other people feel the same way finally I'll end with this according to the city of flagstaff's website under vision of the city of Flagstaff this city Fosters and supports economic environmental educational and cultural opportunities I want to highlight the economic aspect of that statement by enacting a noise ordinance on the city you are taking away people's economic opportunities not only that but choosing to leave downtown out of the ordinance you are picking and choosing who thrives economically in this city so please just think about this thank you for your time thank you Ralph Schmid good evening mayor vice mayor city council um we live in a in a 100y old plus beautiful house that was renovated from the ground up we live in one of the oldest neighborhoods on the south side with a rich history the area has historically been marginalized if a bar open up in the neighborhood across from wheeler Park which is CCC zoned also operating with loud electronic music until 2 a.m.

this would not have continued on so long when we purchased our house there was no noise issues The Tavern then operated without loud music there was no problem only when a new owner came in and turned it into a nightclub like concept with Extremely Loud electronic music and Bas until 2 a.m.

did this become an issue and and has continued on screaming and yelling from large intoxicated crowds on the patio along with loud music and heavy base can be heard throughout our house with with our double pane windows shut There Is No Escape ESC aping from the loud noise we are not unreasonable we are tolerant of a lot of noise but this is Extreme I do know no one should have to experience this why a business directly next to houses some less than 30 feet away would think this is okay is puzzling to me South San Francisco street is flanked by residential dwellings and neighborhoods on either side and Beyond the zoning code States clearly that businesses need to be compatible with nearby residences there's a beautiful example of that like with Mother Road brewing with the Lumber Yard Brewery or Beaver Street Brewery without any issues and complaints and it's it is a beautifully thriving area neighbors have called police and have written letters to city council as you all know and there's many more that simply don't want to speak out public public L and I know why I have spoken out publicly that we can't enjoy our home due to the extreme noise and I now have to face hostility our home address was published without our consent and my family has been singled out and portrayed as villains this bullying is dangerous and Scar and scares people to not speak out after already being in the situ many years ago Flagstaff PD informed us the mayor when it was further down on on South San Francisco was cited they then move further up South San Francisco and created more of the same issues prior to that apparently the M ey and Rainbow Lounge were also cited for noise thank you for your time thank you Sean Browning all right this person um included pronunciation which I very much appreciate Melissa Sha kevich Sha shaich yes thank you because last time you tried so hard to say it right so I appreciate did that in my heart I truly did um and good evening mayor vice mayor council members staff uh again I just really appreciate you and everything you do and and I don't know how you do it um so and I also want to say thank you to those of you that responded the last time I spoke I feel like I was heard and um and you responded and just thanks for that means a lot to me I'm not going to tell you about what shoes I wear or anything this time and but I am very invested in the south side of the tracks as a business owner as a property owner as a resident as living in Flagstaff and walking San Francisco street since 1991 going to matadi ey ending up at the Elks Lodge um so I I get it I I think I get it um and you know I did my homework the before I spoke last time and uh I very much respect all of you and a comment that came up which I understand is um when families residents move into these neighborhoods um they Gamble and they take a risk well so do we as businesses we take a risk when we move into neighborhoods and I think that part of that doing our homework is knowing is if our business model is going to fit the neighborhood we have a responsibility and I know I like Matt I I really do I've only met him a handful of times and he's the I mean I know all of the souths tant owners uh and he's so genuine and it's not about Matt I'm I'm not against Matt at all um but I go back to this idea that um you know the Irish can I can go to my yoga studio I can close my eyes and my mind can stop it can we all have that ability but my son that lives upstairs and I've lived you know two doors down we can't turn off vibration earplugs don't even do it you can't just put earplugs in and it's keeps going all night long oh no till 2 am and um and I do think it's a health issue because they're not able to reset their circadium Rhythm to sleep and I think I was quoted in the paper years ago let them sleep and I really do believe that it's important to let our neighbors sleep thank you for your time thank you Candace Ryan good evening mayor vice mayor and councel thank you for your time I'm aware of a petition you received it appeared to have a lot of misinformation on it and fearmongering I quote one of the statements any noise this could be include talking whistling laughing could be a citation upon diving into the signatures they're from all over the United States by Nature a business has more accessibility to gather a crowd than residents by bringing employees and patrons maybe even making it worthwhile for those who align I was asked to join two sound committees to represent the neighborhood it consisted of the for former DBA director owner of the annex among others it was clear from the feedback from the former DBA director getting we were getting from businesses that disables were not wanted so we set it we started another group and in that group we had the new DBA director involved for one of the meetings we had and we only had one there are several false narratives uh one is this is just my my family and one other business we are the sacrificial lamb I can tell you why others are scared to speak up last week after the meeting I was um talking to a police officer and was near the police chief and a building bar owner confronted me in an agitated way while I was doing something with them I asked him twice to leave me alone which he did not and the police chief echoed my request my husband posted a kind and inclusive message to save the South Tavern post Friday a day later that same bar building order posted I quote since Ralph has identified himself as a public post I guess I'm free to show the world end quot to which he shared a document from his attorney sent to us in 2022 this document has my address on it and my name and my husband's name it was shared without our consent to thousands of people he then deleted my husband's comment blocked him and kept the document up till Monday as I checked today the document is still up on the petition and it's linked all over at different sites on Facebook this has been left to fester for a long time um and because of the inaction I think it's normalized behaviors that are not normal it's created a sense of entitlement for businesses that do not want to be compatible with the neighborhood 23 years I've lived here and I'm embedded in the community I think pretty deeply and I thought I knew this town but I have never seen so much bullying going on online around um some of the posts of this this um topic and um some key members of the community have jumped in on the buling it's deplorable it's disgusting it's very concerning something that's not personal I have nothing against um anyone involved I've never said anything mean about staff ever I don't feel that way I really truly don't has become personalized it's just about a historic neighborhood and wanting to have the um Zone being um honored and when you take into housing think that quality of life also plays in the role of a housing shortage too it all goes together thank you thank you Daphne mizerik perhaps stafanie left Hunter Hebert hello and good evening uh Council mayor vice mayor I'm Hunter AAR I represent the downtown business Alliance I uh just started my job around June this year um but uh I sent a letter to you guys last week I hope that you took the time to read it and so um uh I have the letter in front of me right here so I'm just G to highlight a couple um things that I stated there so um here before us today you've seen uh cultural bearers in employers uh Community assets community members and taxpayers right um and I understand the uh necessity of holding nightlife operators accountable but it's important to recognize the significant challenge that restaurants and bar owners are currently face in this difficult business climate um the recently approved bedboard and beverage uh tax allocates a portion of sales from these establishments to support Recreation and beautification efforts that enhance Flag Staff appeal as a desirable place to live a thriving service industry is crucial for our local economy it funds enhanced Recreation initiatives drives tourism and provides valuable employment opportunities these businesses play a pivotal role in defining local Flagstaff culture making it essential to consider their difficulties as we move forward consider what it would mean if Flag Staff uh to Flag Staff if our service industry were dominated by corporate franchises or even worse if those storefronts were shuttered um in addition to being uh tough on business this ordinance poses a significant enforcement challenge for already underst staffed Police Department uh which would be responsible for addressing all of these complaints it's important to remember that people naturally speak louder when they are enjoying themselves and trying to regulate the volume of conversation in such situations is Impractical and counterproductive um there's also a potential risk um um that this enforcement could be misused in minor disputes between neighbors potentially fostering a hostile atmosphere in areas that have traditionally been spaces for celebration and fellowship so um I urge you to carefully consider the vibrancy and financial solvency of our community and how this decision could unravel the Positive Growth that has taken place over the past decades thank you thank you Kevin heinanen uh good afternoon or evening or night uh mayor vice mayor and Council I'm Kevin Heinen in I'm the owner of that place projects which consists of Tinderbox kitchen the annex tourist home and most recently tatra on the North side um I sent yall a letter so I don't want to rehash all that but I do want to go over a couple things you've heard from a lot of impassioned people about jobs and right now I'm the employer of about 100 people and I can tell you with this ordinance that will drop there is no doubt that that would have to happen um but instead of the individual plight which is business owners risking everything I started in 2008 on the southide which probably wasn't the smartest move but it worked and it's it's improved since then and it's become a really valuable tax base for this community so couple other things downtown vibrancy Flagstaff vibrancy we want to to be a vibrant Town we're a college town we're a young Town we're an active Town putting arbitrary 8:00 9:00 restrictions on noise defeats all that it changes everything that this town has become known for we're a tourist destination people love to come stay here and play here and you're taking away the play part and now we're just become a bedroom place for people to stay um you're going to have massive economic impact with a such a broad sweeping uh ordinance such as is this the BBB last year in your budget contributed 12.5 million doll to the city of Flagstaff that goes to things that um Hunter pointed out Recreation tourism beautification Economic Development and Arts and Sciences has anyone done the thought of what's going to happen Downstream by limiting businesses to the hours that you're talking about and how that's going to impact the bottom line of the city in the tax base um I think we're talking about some misplaced priorities here the city has uh has a lot of pressing issues housing and the courage you showed today on that very difficult situation shows that that is something that you're considering about a police department severely underfunded which are now going to tax very heavily by changing this ordinance um and you're making hasty decisions right it has been time and I I hear Candace talk about how long it's been but nothing's happened right in a way that's meaningful instead we're pushing through to P pass something right away to to help the few over the many I'm asking you to look at the many look at the tax look at the vibr the vibrancy of of downtown Flagstaff and Flagstaff as a whole and don't make this blanket the entire city over one small dispute and I'll close with this and it may not be popular with either the Southside Tavern or Candice's family they have a remedy it's called a nuisance lawsuit this is clearly a a very limited issue that's happening right now that you're taking a machete to and I'm asking you to take a scalpel to this problem I don't think this is driving for the city of flags have to make policy over over this one dispute there is another option right now for them thank you thank you either Kayla bobbit or kia bobbit are either one of coia super uh so hello my name is Kia bobbit I graduated from na just last spring and I've been a Flagstaff resident since I was born um I am for the noise ordinance for the last couple of years I've lived down the block from Southside to and the noise generated there has been a consistent obstacle for me getting the sleep I need to be healthy and per for at the standard I did in my studies it's uh really a bummer when you spend weeks investing time to study for an exam just for you to not be able to sleep the night before I've had to begin this pattern where I move any glasses at least half an inch away from one another because if they're touching from the vibrating of my house from the noise I just hear those clatter it's can be absurdly loud um ultimately Southside is a business and it performs well I've seen you know lines of people outside but I believe that the city should be prioritizing the mental and physical health of its citizens if proper regulations were in place I would have a much better sleep for the last two years as well as my wife my neighbors we have all called in before for noise complaints but we haven't seen a change the success of Southside should not be at the cost of my health proper regulation should be in place so I can sleep and business owners can adopt around that regulation whether that is by installing noise Technologies to cancel out sound or by changing their business model if they invest an adequate amount of thought and money into these strategies they can find a way to retain the culture he values and the business they own without sacrificing the well-being of their fellow community members the culture of nightlife is not dependent on absurdly loud music businesses can find another way to promote that culture with other methods this also isn't only about Southside Tavern but a bigger picture of how the city chooses to prioritize its residents by not having proper regulation over this specific case the city is making the choice of prioritizing the economics a few over the health of many which is something I would argue is very unjust philosophy to be running a government under thank you for your time and consideration of prioritizing your citizens health and sleep thank you Caleb Jensen good evening mayor vice mayor council members um my name is Caleb Jensen and I'm an na student um and I believe that the ordinance that's being proposed tonight is a complete infringement upon the lives of community members and business owners in Flagstaff um I know there's issues regarding Southside Tavern specifically and I do believe that that is an individual issue and should not be regulated using a city ordinance um I truly think that that is completely um an overe exaggeration of what needs to be happening um I know personally I walk by Southside T all the time any day of the week past 9:00 p.m.

past 10 p.m.

with my partner and I've never noticed any noises well that's and I I know that walking past is completely different than living right next door to it but I've never noticed any issues surrounding the noise there and I was born and raised in Tucson and the bars in Tucson are incredibly loud um and disturbing so it's not um it's I have not noticed that it's an issue um personally I also believe and agree that it might create more problems between neighbors than are currently happening it might become kind of these Petty disputes that really should not have police involved I think it's a complete misdirection of um police resources and I think it's a waste of time and City resources um and I know I attend a campus ministry every Sunday evening from 5:30 um to 8:00 p.m.

is usually when our service ends and after that we will stay afterwards and do homework sometimes we have Barbecues in our parking lot and if this ordinance were to pass we would no longer be able to hang out outside on the porch and have discussions um about our homework or about the Bible or whatever that is um if somebody might might find an find an issue with that and another reason why I think this is a complete misdirection of police resources is that we are a queer affirming Ministry and so we are a Target in the community unfortunately we've had our pride flag stolen multiple times last May it was taken taken down and burned and put into our recycling bin now there's another conversation to have with how flag PD has addressed hate crimes and other hate-based violence in the past and how they haven't really adequately addressed those issues but redirecting police resources towards a petty issue like this would further detract from their ability to respond to hate-based violence especially in an increasingly hostile political environment um and that's all I have to say thank you for your time thank you Thomas Carter Martin uh the microphone for the height challenge sorry about that and it's here it's good it's good I I I work it out they go that way um honorable mayor and counsel I thank you so much for your service the last 30 years I've been coming to these meetings on and off and I've been seeing wonderful people doing what you do I've lost some battles here I won a couple but I just thank you for doing what you do to have to pull all this together whatever decision you make somebody's going to like somebody's not not like but you need to know I am so thankful to you for making these decisions you just need to know that silence is golden did you hear did did you hear the 840 go rumbling through town you didn't hear it's horn go did you for a long time this town has been very sensitive to noise it's nothing new for a long time we worked on that horn issue for a long time and you didn't hear that horn go by did you nope you didn't silence is golden we as a species are very susceptible to noise you know that there's a bunch of residents in this town at this meeting sitting behind me that are very sensitive to what I'm saying and the hair on the back of their head is starting to go up because they might not like what I'm saying unfortunately unwanted sound for long periods of time especially at night hurts us as a species and some people on this planet use it as a form of torture we need to be very sensitive to this as a town this ordinance is a very good place to start it may need to be stronger why do I say that gentleman previously mentioned community and commercial I believe the ordinance states that commercial use shall not May shall be compatible with residential use that ordinance is not written the other way around that residential use shall be compliant with commercial use it's not written that way you need to be very careful here this isn't about this business versus that homeowner this is about this time town and the quality of this town this isn't a Nim issue this is very important about our town and why we're here silence is golden silence leads to civility thank you for your service thank you Dan Powell for having me off throw my glasses on here so uh I'm the owner of pan or mayor and city council thank you for having me thank you for what you do um I am we are begging you to not pass this noise ordinance um if you saw in the there's an article in the Daily Sun on Saturday it says run of business closures and Flagstaff prompts questions about our future so you know what has happened with this uh because I've been coming to these noise uh ordinance meetings for you know it seems like four or five years now so we're really starting to get anxiety in the business world it's just it's starting to sort of overwhelm us you know we just survived a pretty major pandemic we've we've survived tough economic challenges my business has been there for 28 years and we've been through it all and this noise ordinance thing is the one thing that's going to shut pay and take down I mean it's 28 years it's a it's a community Hub and we are you know starting to feel the anxiety that you hear other businesses feeling up here that that our business is going to be threatened because what it seems like if you guys haven't noticed tonight this conversation has been about the Southside and about Candace and Ralph that's it everybody who get up here talks about two people and I think Kevin said it right when it's you know there's there's sort of nuisance lawsuits that might address this but I'm begging you not to pass a noise ordinance that would affect businesses that have been here for so long and hope to continue to be here for a long time um like I said we've been in business for 28 years we've never had a noise complaint we have 12 Apartments be uh above us what this would do would would con uh create an unfair environment for us that you'd have a renter who might move into one of these apartments upstairs and decide they don't like pay and take and they just continued to to start levying complaints against us well we can't afford those fines when they start building up we've as as some of you might know also been the victim of sort of vindictive business other business owners downtown um who would also be able to leverage this against anyone who has a patio or anybody who's just playing a little bit of music and been doing the same thing for 28 years when I look at this from an outside point of view and I see what is it Matt I don't know Matt but what is it Matt what Matt's been up to if if that bar has been there since 2013 it sounds like he's sort of being punished for being successful and when it's when when these guys got up here and talk if you guys agree it sounds like he's been trying to and I don't know the details but it sounds like he's been trying to sort of help out these homeowners you know when you move into a business district you move there because you want the vitality and you want the vibrancy and then what happens is as you grow older and your life change you can't ask the business district to be rezoned residential and for the rules to change for that for the for the one person this absolutely is a Nim issue um I know that the previous gentleman said it wasn't but it is um the people have voted you know when we talk about is this a is this a voter issue or a people issue he doesn't have lines around the block because the people don't want to go there your three minutes is up thank you for your time appreciate Sarah Lee hello councel I won't lie to you I'm a little bit nervous this is my first city hall meeting and I didn't think I would be speaking tonight but I care a lot about my town and seeing this amazing Community come together and fight for what's important to them is really what our community is all about and I've moved around a lot for someone who is 18 years old and is a freshman in college but I had the privilege to live in Flagstaff while I was in Middle School and I went to Falla I'm A Fine Arts kid and I'm a theater major at NAU and seeing the amount of small businesses that closed from when I lived here in Middle School to now it's it's heartbreaking because the town that I was so excited to come back to when I came back for school was completely different and as someone who's very heavily involved in the Fine Arts I'm an actress I'm a singer I'm a performer this noise ordinance I fear is going to limit the amount of jobs that me and my friends who are heavily involved in the Arts can get because a lot of performances happen later at night and this isn't just about businesses this is also about artists trying to make a living and I think I speak for a lot of the people in my theater program when I say that this is kind of scary because I go to the same religious organization that Caleb does and it's concerning to see the amount of um the things that that give us such a sense of community which is really important for a freshman in college to have and I'm I'm very grateful to have that and and I don't want to lose that and I was growing up taught to support small businesses and fight for them so as nervous as I am coming up here I think this noise ordinance would do more harm than good and that's all I'm going to say on that thank you my Mike Darby well Council um I actually didn't originally plan on speaking but I had to respond to something uh I'm the CEO of Lumber Yard Brewing Company Beaver Street brewering company and uh bruising qes and gentleman mentioned us as an operator that was doing good um preo we had nightlife at lumry yard we don't do that anymore um we haven't gotten back into that but Kevin BR mentioned uh Southside the revitalization of Southside and that had come back and Co kind of messed all that up for a lot of the restaurant tours and bars and everything in town so you know we had over 150 employees preo that went down we're back and I think everybody's coming back and we fight everything that comes along with pricing and everything uh minimum wage talk about that too um but now we're faced with a noise ordinance that could affect us and you know kind of talking about us doing something right this is blanketed to the South Side so we could sit out there and we have patios in the middle of summer on a Tuesday night our patio might be full at 10 o'clock at night and then to have restriction on how to how do we manage that do we have to close down all of our outdoor seating in the middle of beautiful uh summer and Flagstaff where that's where everybody wants to sit when we can look directly across the tracks and see Collins and flag brew with their patios open and they have no restriction on them um I think that this is blanketed you know Kevin brought up the scalpel the only bars that have been brought up in this are one and nobody's talking about other bars in this whole thing and you know we came originally to you know help support and kind of see what you guys were going to do and because we're now included in it as well I I think that it is a scalpel issue and I don't think that you can blanket the city and exclude somebody else because they're just across the north side of the tracks thank you thank you Andrew Sha um thank you Council and mayor uh so yeah in line I wasn't definitely even expecting to be at this meeting um I was sitting at my establishment having a drink to wind down for the night I own the avaava and coffee bar at 218 South San Francisco I also live in downtown at 924 West Summit Avenue um as a homeowner and a business owner in downtown I think that this is egregious um I've watched 60-year-old neighbors have police show up to their house party in droves over a neighbor who felt that they were making too much noise and if that's already possible under the law I'm very afraid to see what passing this law would make possible for my business in Southside uh I don't nearly have the largess of everybody else who has spoken but I'm in complete agreement by deputizing the residents uh deputizing my neighbor who owns an Airbnb and would prefer it be quiet and has called me and texted me when we were doing events to be quiet just so that she can make a better bottom line well we're a business too and the fact of the matter is and I would agree that the passage of this ordinance would create a problem uh my business has been a struggle uh I'm not the original owner and I bought it from some other business owners who have been struggling and one thing that changed our business was music and I was happy to hear you guys call the name of Daphne she helps us get our shows going and uh yeah whatever she would have said would have been great because she's the one who's actually putting these events together but I think the thing to really think of is the vibrancy of our town and what will we be restricting if we allow for this ordinance to go through um I agree also with the comments of Tucson Fourth Avenue all of the other places being that I am an establishment and I do consider where we are in downtown uh I would ask the council to not move forward with this ordinance against the negative impacts it would have on businesses thank you thank you all right we have some online commenters yes mayor our first commenter tonight is going to be Sarah Hamilton Sarah you may go ahead and address mayor and councel um good evening hopefully you guys can hear me okay uh good evening mayor vice mayor and members of the city council um I'd like to start by stating that if you're going to form a sound or noise committee perhaps you should not include parties that obviously have a conflict of interests not just once but it sounds like twice or make it inclusive of all parties involved which I'm sure was not the case um I'm speaking today as a proud NAU alumna who has had the privilege of experiencing and being a part of downtown Flag Staff a place that thrives on energy creativity and yes a little noise uh what I didn't expect was to find myself defending Common Sense against a noise ordinance that feels more like satire than a serious policy proposal Flagstaff small businesses are the backbone of this community they provide jobs tax revenue and a sense of identity that keeps people coming back yet somehow this council is considering a measure that could kneecap them to cater to a minute handful of noise averse residents it should be no surprise if you move into a vibrant downtown area and expect it to be quiet the problem the problem isn't the business businesses it's you moving behind a bar a bar that was established specifically as a patio bar over 10 years ago this ordinance punishes the very energy and excitement that draws many to Flagstaff in the first place something with this kind of impact should go to the people of Flagstaff not decided upon by a handful of elected officials now I'm not saying noise concern shouldn't be addressed but the answer isn't bulldozing the businesses that make this city Thrive practical Solutions have already been offered to the one resident driving this ordinance like installing air conditioning covering the cost of a Quiet Retreat during business weekends or busy weekends sorry or even balanced quiet hours with outside music turned off the only noise being from patrons that was never good enough so instead we're debating an ordinance that would strangle the local economy to appe appease a few people with unrealistic and unreasonable expectations this ordinance isn't just bad it's insulting and insulting to the small business owners who pour their Blood Sweat and Tears into making Flagstaff a place worth visiting insulting to the workers who rely on these jobs to pay rent and feed their families and insulting to anyone who loves this city for what it is a Place full of life culture and yes sound I'm asking that you reject this ordinance stop micromanaging the noise level of a vibrant downtown and let Flagstaff continue to be the Lively welcoming place it's always been remember that this is an individual issue otherwise you may as well start drafting the next Ordinance one to explain where all the money jobs and visitors went after you pulled the plug on downtown thank you is there another public commenter yes our next public commenter is Blake witon Blake you may go ahead and unmute yourself and give address be and counsel good can you hear me hello can you hear me yes okay thank you thought I would reintroduce myself because there may be some new people in uh today's meeting who haven't heard me speak in previous meetings but I own a home in the same alley that houses the back patio of the Southside Tavern in fact my front yard is just 40 ft from uh that back patio and that's how I became involved in this issue so my home is a modest home it's two bedrooms and one bath about 1,000 square ft backs up against the Rio day flag I moved there in 1982 two as an NA student so for those of you who are accounting that was 42 years ago so I lived there for uh six years first as an NAU student then as a grad student then I was able to teach at NAU for three years had that great fortune and uh after six years I moved away for to pursue my career as a college professor but I purchased my home in 1984 while I was still living there U that's 40 years ago I was very fortunate to purchase it as a student the uh there was a realtor couple who owned property in Flag Staff uh Larry and Eloise coz and Larry Co developed an eye problem and they decided to sell all their property and take a trip around the world so I was able to buy this beautiful home uh as a student my long-term hope and plan is to return to Flagstaff and retirement and to live there my business plan has been to rent the house successfully by the way for the 35 years since to a series of people who lived in downtown never had any problems so things were working quite well until I lost my last tenant in December of last year that's NAU Professor Holly Jackson uh Holly gave me permission to mention her in tonight's meeting so Holly's told me that her problems began in 2021 postco problems uh with her husband and her young daughter being able to sleep because of the Southside Tavern she wrote letters to the city council all to no avail so she had to move out in December I have been unable to rent my home since in all of 2024 because with all my prospective tenants and I've had about a dozen of them I've given them due diligence to tell them we have had some problems in the neighborhood please stop by on a on a weekend night to make sure the the noise is tolerable to you I've had no takers so as of December 1st 2024 because I haven't rented and I've had extra expenses because the utilities are in my name it's costing me about $25,000 in 2024 that is a lot of money for my family and this is for a house uh the money goes to support my house into improvements things like that so in the past several Council meetings I've heard the noise issue sometimes framed in terms of residents versus business owners but my situation contradicts that that that's not true I have my own business it's a rental business my rental Thank You Blake our next commenter I'm my apologies if I mispronounced the name um EA Joshi you may go ahead and mute yourself and address mayor and councel hello hi um can you all hear slse me we can hear you yes oh there we go um you should to be able to see me now as well um hi my name is AKA Joi and um I've had the privilege of being uh born and raised in Flagstaff Arizona uh my parents have lived in Flagstaff for um about 30 years and it has been one of the you know one of the best places I feel a person can grow up and it's changed a lot in the time that you know I have lived in Flagstaff and I'm you know only 18 years old lived there for the first 18 years of my life um and am here today to ask city council to please reject this noise ordinance um and to please not pass it um I'm going to Echo what so many people have already have already told you that you know this is a vibrant and you know Unique city um I know that Flagstaff you know for Northern Arizona is not only um you know it's not only one of the larger cities in a rural Northern Arizona area but it's Al a college town and it is a hub of safety for queer individuals in northern Arizona and specifically downtown and the South Side function um you know as a safe space for a lot of queer Northern arizonans um I know that one of the places that is certainly going to be impacted the most by this ordinance is going to be the hive which serves as you know a space for so many people and flag stuff to gather around live music drag shows and art events uh this would really really a incredibly important part of the community for so many people including myself um it's one of the places that keeps me coming back to Flagstaff despite the fact that I'm a student um at Arizona State University now um but places like the hive and aaba bar keep me coming back to Flagstaff um the south side of downtown is not just historically significant it is part of commun it is part of the Flagstaff community and it's you know um I don't think I'd be able to recognize Flagstaff without it I know earlier somebody said that silence is golden and that it's an essential component of you know of The Human Experience to be able to live in peace but I think um we're in some really turbulent times not just uh nationally but also globally and spaces for people to come together to express themselves to engage and experience art with their communities are more important now than than maybe ever and these places do not only function as Gathering hubs they also um you know host a lot of um things like coat drives food drives and Aid donations for victims of the San Carlos fires or those experiencing homelessness in the community um Gathering spaces don't only boost the morale they also provide really concrete um help for a lot of people and thank you so much much for your time thank you for everything you're doing and thank you for your consideration I hope you really do take in the voice of the majority here in Flagstaff and that you don't pass this thank you next our next uh commenter is going to be Sophia Rogers Sophia you may go ahead and address mayor and Council thank you so much um good evening U mayor vice mayor and council members and everyone present I'm Sophia Rogers a resident of Flagstaff for the last 25 years and I'm here tonight to express my support for the noise ordinance at hand um noise ordinances are usually based on zoning and this neighborhood is zoned Community commercial and the purpose of which I read is to provide convenient goods and services to a daytime work population um the southide is an important historic area and deserves thoughtful stewardship so thank you all um bars and taverns are a vital part of its character and should provide a place for all of its community members to gather and socialize providing this should not come at the detriment of the residents who also called this neighborhood home many Flagstaff businesses successfully strike the balance um thriving while maintaining respect for the existing Community as it has been stated the original business plan for this establishment was not um offensive so um these other businesses that are being successful they they serve as examples of how a harmonious relationship between residents and businesses can strengthen neighborhoods and enrich Flagstaff as a whole I've been made aware that an attitude promoting fear and intimidation towards neighborhood residents has accompanied the interactions around this issue I ask you to protect the Integrity of the south side and vote in favor of the noise ordinance businesses sometimes need to adjust their business model I see concerns with small businesses and Hope that a good solution is found I don't think this is about art musicians or support in community for college students I think it's about letting young people drink and keep drinking and be loud until the early morning hours um I'm sure it makes a lot of money and I'm sad that our community relies so heavily on that for its entertainment and income somebody said earlier that people speak louder when they're having fun but people actually speak way too loud when they're intoxicated um and this goes back to the zoning of the neighborhood it is unique but it is community commercial and it is meant to work with residents I ask you to vote in favor of the noise ordinance thank you so much thank you next mayor our next commenter is going to be sha Go Lightly Sean you may go ahead and address mayor and councel hey mayor and Council uh thank you all for your time it's good to see you this evening I just want to make a couple of a handful of comments here uh first I I want to dispel this this narrative that this is a one neighbor one business issue I know we've heard that over and over again but uh you know as a Southside resident that was not the case the the business that is being brought up here was never an issue um when we were dealing with these issues uh the the other businesses that were Troublesome you know we did have the experience of of trying to work with or or making in complaints and calls and those kind of going nowhere uh but more to the point I want to I want note that uh it was it was described that this issue has been festering for a while and I think that's pretty accurate um as far as I can recall it's been going on since 2019 I remember reporting on it years ago and I think that we've come to a really uh frankly an ugly place where things have gotten really convoluted and there's you know very heightened and emotional arguments on both sides and a lot of valid points being made on both sides and I would really urge Council to um do what I think I've I've heard people on both sides say they want which is to go back to the study that our taxpayer dollars spent on you know when we produce the study in the first place we come up with a set of recommendations that made ordinances comparable to other cities much like Betsy Hamill suggested there are ordinances that work in thriving vibrant communities I'm a great lover of the Arts and a performing musician I certainly want to protect those assets we know that their ordinances are worked we had professional recommendations put forward on how we could make an ordinance work for us based on the data and when we got that recommendation in for some reason we discarded it and send it to a commun commission a committee and it's just kind of festered since then and I would really encourage you to go back to the data to the science to the study we paid for and see what recommendations we can move forward with from there um it's important to note that communities that do have noise ordinances actually have fewer complaints uh we know that that produces a a dynamic in which there are fewer complaints and another point on the fear mongering of noise ordinance let's be honest it's like speeding limits not every time you speed are you gonna get a violation or you know get a ticket and the same would be true with ordinances there's not going to be a cop on every quarter with a decimal reader there's not going to be residents sitting around waiting to complain because they have nothing better to do but it does provide a mechanism and a baseline for which a functioning ordinance can address real uh friction between businesses between residents and do so in a thoughtful way that preserves the quality of life and the livelihood of both so please go back to the data go back to the science we paid for we we need to we need to move forward with this in a way and that seems I've I've heard the bushards in support of that I've heard residents in support of that so let's go back to that study thank you thank you next our next comment excuse me I'm sor sorry um can you keep Shan on the line please council member McCarthy has a question Sean are you still there yes Sean I've say stated before that the noise has been so severe the people have literally like sold their house and moved can you talk to that yeah well we we scraped all our family and finances together um when living in the Southside became untenable for us because uh you know it was rattling our walls making uh making you know uh pictures fall off our walls and to be clear none of this had anything to do with the business that has has been on the Das much today this was from the uh the mayor bar and the the excessive uh speakers that they had on the the rooftop patio at the time all right so we made the hard decision to uh move out of that house that we lovingly restored as one of the most historic homes in Flagstaff and to do so we were basically faced with an option we looked at selling it and we were told if you sell it it'll turn into um it'll either be raised and developed or it'll you know turn into like a a short-term rental so we found a way we scraped together our family and our finances to hang on to the house so we could be stewards of it stewards of this piece of flag stf history and move into a different neighborhood we've been we've done that now for for two years and um we can't do it anymore it's untenable we're moving back to our home on the Southside we we can't you know stretch like this and that's our home and so we uh um we're moving back with you know the hope and the attention that the the character and the quality of the neighborhoods and the businesses again you know we we love the character and the quality of the Southside neighborhood for its businesses for its live music and for what it offers to residences and there's no reason to believe that these things are incompatible um so while we've you know tried really hard and we had the privilege to kind of step away and excuse ourselves from this issue for a while not everyone has that same level of privilege and I want to recognize that as as well we've been very fortunate in that respect but again I I want to emphasize I mean I think I heard The Bard family say at first it's like there needs to be a level of specificity that has to do with the the zoning that has to do with decel levels um and and I agree with that and we have we have that data we have that opportunity we produced a study that created datadriven recommendations specific for our city comparable to other cities we can do this and we have the ability to do so um in a way that will improve the quality of life and will improve the neighborhood as a whole um so again I I urge you to return to those studies to to follow that science there um and this we need we need to do something thank you for your input on that thank you yes next speaker our next speaker is going to be Amy beer Amy you may go ahead and address mayor council hello um this is Amy beer can you hear me all right yes perfect hi uh my name's Amy um I'm a mother that lives in Flagstaff and I previously worked at Evans fish and chips in the Southside area um um I just wanted to bring that to light first um a big reason why I got my job at Evans fish and chips is it allowed me the opportunity in our housing crisis to make enough money to be able to rent somewhere as we discussed earlier in the meeting we are in a housing crisis um to get into affordable housing there is a huge weit list and as a result of that weit list um a lot of people aren't able to get on it and then get into housing and so in our town you have to make roughly three times rent to rent most places and as a single mother at the time working at Evans Evans allowed for me in the evening times while I was also going to school to support myself and my daughter and make that three times my rent along with another job which um a business owner Andrew um sha was speaking earlier I was also working at the Kaa bar in the evenings and these jobs that also create loudness and also benefit from um these other businesses downtown for example Southside Tavern a huge portion of our sales at Evans fishion chips came from Southside taverns I was working the evening shifts um on the weekends as a student and a mother you're very limited on when you can work so those hours were what allowed me to be able to support myself those customers coming in after being Rowdy and loud at the bar next door and buying food and tipping us well allowed for me to give my daughter the life that she deserves as a mother and at the time as a single mother um so I do see this as something that could drastically affect people's ability to house themselves when we are in a situation where some students aren't capable of working during the week they're only capable of working on the weekends on week nights students like myself that are also mothers students like unlike myself that aren't mothers that are also still trying to further their future people that need that income at three times what our housing rate is in town as we all know it's very expensive and to be able to make that money on the weekends at night and not affect your ability to go to school and be a productive M member in our society in the future I think would drastically harm a lot of students as well as community community members like myself I've lived in Flagstaff for roughly 10 years and because of evening jobs like that throughout all of my time in Flag Staff Flag Staff I was capable of living here successfully and being a member in our community that thrived and was you know contributing and taking away those hours I believe will take away thank you your three minutes is up next caller our next our next commenter is going to be Scotty Donovan Scotty you may go ahead and address mayor and councel good evening uh mayor vice mayor and counsel and everybody attending um just to make this short I moved up here in uh this past March I was a resident downtown and while living across the street from Southside Tavern and inside the downtown district I had zero uh zero problems of sleeping at night um never had any noise complaints of any of those businesses along San Francisco um I'm definitely a proud supporter of our local businesses I'm a member of the Flagstaff Chamber of Commerce and young Flagstaff professionals uh our main motives are to keep every local business uh in the economy thriving uh we want to definitely keep our residents happy and we want to make sure that they spend their hard-earned dollars at these local local businesses um as on the government side you want to realize how many hundreds of people you put out of business how many would have to relocate move out of town how many dollars that this would lose in our local taxpaying money how much this would affect our uh First Responders as they're already overworked um already uh I would definitely say I I am against this no ordinance I'm sure there's a way where we can use technology to hamper down noise in some areas um I've been going there for almost the past month 10 months I do not go to places that are that loud so I don't know why it's brought up that it's that loud I've even been there where black step police have done desal readings and they Matt has even Matt the owner has even turned off the sub whoopers um but it is a chain link effect that where you you put down one business that affects Southside Tavern Evans Tatro Tinderbox I mean the list just goes on and on so if you really want to keep the heart and soul and the vibe of this community uh please do not go and approve this noise ordinance let's look for a different resolution and let's move forward keep everybody employed and keep them here in Flaga I want to thank you all for so much of your time and devotion um during today thank you thank you next commenter our next commenter is going to be Chris C Chris you may go ahead and address mayor and Council uh good afternoon um mayor and Council my name is Christopher keriko um longtime city of Flagstaff resident I've actually uh recently retired that residency status um I did work for Andrew shaer the cavab bar I work for Craig and Terry um and I worked for Matt I've spent a lot of time in the downtown area um most recently while working for Matt I started working for him in November of last year when he opened up shop um I knew the noises were an issue um from Craig and Terry the past owners um Matt took a pretty proactive approach I was out there multiple times multiple nights um pretty much every weekend taking noise levels we installed a desal reader inside the bar I also talked with numerous amounts of Flagstaff police officers that were called downtown seemingly every single weekend um a waste of resources is how I would describe it when they would come we would always be compliant they would come inside do a visual inspection we'd walk around back they would always agree that our noise levels were in check they would actually say that the um the prior mayor the uh the mayor bar much louder yeah no I I I when I heard that this was going to council I I needed to jump online it's 10:30 where I am I've been sitting in the city council meeting just as long as you guys um waiting for this issue to come up um and I I I think it's a waste of police resources a waste of City resources we're sitting here right now wasting our precious time and our resources and I and I don't I don't know why this is an issue of the city this is really a one-on-one issue um and and like everybody's kind of Hit the point there's ambiguous language this is overreaching authority of the city um and I think the biggest point that was brought up by Mr Shan Go Lightly why are we in such of a rush why are we not slowing it down why are we not taking a very methodical approach a data driven approach um I I I don't think we should vote Yes or no tonight I think we should stop in our tracks take a step back really think this through methodically um it's it's a wrecking ball approach that's going to take out um Southside Tavern a bar for the people um for everyone don't don't rip it out of this town for Greg Terry Lily Danny Matt and everybody that's house said I love you guys I miss you thank thank you next caller our next commenter is going to be ish ish you may go ahead and address mayor and Council awesome thank you uh hi everybody uh my name is Ish um thank you for allowing everybody to speak appreciate it uh I'm a musician um I go by dead bug and I play a ton in downtown and I really love the music scene here not only the music scene I also love the drag scene and all the you know love and creativity that brings to the town and I do feel like this noise ordinance would just completely kill it and like the the places that I I've played at like the hive and aava uh I don't know we play shows at like 400 PM or something like I it'd be silly I think if this noise ordinance did pass I would absolutely have to find somewhere else to continue my living as the musician uh and I think a lot of other people would too I think you know the Allure of Flagstaff the college kids they come they want to go to a a vibrant uh downtown and I think if this thing passed like so many people would choose a different College as an option I do live right behind Southside Tavern and it's not that bad like it it's a little noisy but it's fine I can live with it I also used to live right behind the May and I could hear that from where I was living there too and it it was fine I mean I just closed my windows and went straight to sleep there's so many more things that are noisy about Flagstaff too I mean like the college kids like on a night out like they're pretty noisy na when they're having a football game they're pretty noisy but I think that like shows that Flagstaff is thriving like if it's completely dormant and Island that's a sad town and I think a lot of people would agree with that and so many people have who have talked like the business owners they've made really great points and like postco it's been really difficult for everybody and we need those businesses to stay open and we need places to go I mean I'm sure during covid it was plenty quiet and it was awful like we need places to express ourselves and have fun and I want flag St to stay fun um and yeah please do not pass this noise ordinance and thank you for letting me speak thanks guys thank you next caller our last commenter is going to be Teresa Coleman Teresa you may go ahead and address mayor and counsel thank you honorable mayor and councel I had a prepared statement and I'm going to wing it a little bit um I'm super disappointed in our neighborhood um our community commercial uh neighborhood um we really have an opportunity to like step up and be good neighbors to each other um I will admit I have called in noise complaints I can also tell you that the reason that I stopped calling in noise complaints is because I was the one who had to allow the police into my home I was the one who had to provide identification for myself so that the police could take a record of me even though I was just asking that the noise um be turned down enough so that I could sleep at night um but right now I want to speak for my other neighbors um you may be aware that our community commercial neighborhood is home to folks who cannot afford housing in other areas of Flagstaff um they live in motel rooms um they sleep in addicts uh they're in converted hospitals uh converted in motels I think I said that so we have lots of folks in our neighborhood who really don't have a choice about where they live and if they had the same experience I did they've also learned that lodging a complaint about noise just makes them the target of the police action not the business itself and uh even requests to the business to turn the music down only lasted about 15 minutes until the police drove away so we did have businesses that were not good neighbors and I'm super disappointed that um it's like come to this because I think with a thoughtful or noise ordinance in place and I would have to agree with the folks who have said what about that study that we paid $30,000 for um would help us all as far as being a cohesive uh neighborhood that could support each other whether we were a business or a young family or folks who just need to get a night's sleep so that they can go to work for those downtown businesses that they don't need a car to commute to and that's what I'm asking that you just take a balanced approach to this and help our neighborhood Thrive thank you all right that's it for public comments so now I'm opening it up to council first we have council member Suite thank you mayor first I want to acknowledge it's late so I'll try and be quick um and I I do want to thank everyone for your thoughtful comments tonight and express my deep appreciation for staff's hard work on this issue this has been undoubtedly been the most challenging topics we faced and I recognize the patience required from all sides I'd like to begin by addressing the petition requesting that I recuse myself from this matter after Consulting with our legal department and carefully considering the situation I obviously have decided not to recuse myself it has been determined by legal that there is no substantial conflict of interests that exists my clothing boutique closes at 800 p.m there are more than 10 businesses that sell clothing in the vicinity of my Boutique and I have no personal interest or gain from the outcome of this decision if you have questions the legal opinion is on file and available in the city clerk's office since last week I've been diving deeper into the history of the South side while our discussions have largely focused on housing located on the souths side I didn't fully understand the historic significance of the Southside business district until recently as I learned from a historian this area has roots in the era of segregation and at one time it was a thriving district with both businesses and residents including what was once a red light district over the weekend I took the time to walk along South San Francisco street to gain a better understanding of the Southside through the lens of its history while there are vacant buildings today I can still sense the potential for revitalization and the continuity we are trying to build between the North and Southside business districts I want to acknowledge that last week I proposed removing the Northside business district from the proposed Citywide noise ordinance at the time that seemed like a logical approach but now I recognize that not all of my initial thoughts were in the best interest of our entire Community as we all know part of our role on Council is to offer Solutions but also to listen learn and adapt when necessary I have come to Council meetings with information on grants businesses can apply for that help with noise mitigation costs and have have provided information on sound blankets and suspended phone blocks that have seemed to help with other businesses and residents in situations when the two are in close proximity over the past week I have continued my research spoken with community members who have a deeper understanding of the history and looked at how other communities have handled similar similar issues from these conversations I've come to understand that the historical segregation which created two distinct commercial districts the North and the Southside makes it inappropriate to treat them differently under the noise ordinance my intent was never to divide the community but but I now see how my earlier proposal could have inadvertently done so we all care deeply about Flagstaff and I believe the seven of us on the council are doing our best to find a fair and balanced solution at the heart of this issue is equity ensuring that all businesses and residents are treated with fairness and respect and that we avoid creating divisions that harm our Collective well-being I believe we need to reach somewhat of a resolution tonight our staff and police force need clear Direction and we need to work to conclude this discussion to allow us to focus on the many other issues facing our community I am committed to finding a solution that works while re realizing that it will take compromise and I appreciate the patience of both those in the room and our staff as we continue this process thank you council member Matthews thank you mayor well said council member sweet um thank you for that I appreciate everyone who has um sent us emails and letters and showed up tonight um last week I realized that we were not hearing from the community and um I apologize for that you know just we were so focused on the issue at hand um and there were so many businesses that I think a lot of us assumed um would not be impacted and would not care about this ordinance and we got too focused on on trying to mitigate um an an issue that was semi I'm not minimizing that it's just one resident I understand there's a lot of residents um I've also looked into the um Community commercial zoning and other areas and the difference is those cities and towns the ones that I found were very clear in detailing exactly um what was allowed and we clearly have not followed that or defined that um and I know there's been some zoning changes so now here we are with 25 plus bars and restaurants on the South Side um and so you know I in a perfect world we just wave our magic wand and say this is the type of businesses that should go down on the southide that's conducive to residential but that ship is selled a long time ago and I know uh being a business consultant for many many years the struggles um and the additional struggles that for some reason are unique to Flagstaff that we burden our especially our restaurants on um Matt you don't have to get up but I I I have another comment to make but I wanted to clarify when you do your desal reading what did you say it was pretty hard so um through the last several hours sitting up here um I started being curious about what um actually I was Googling to say try to find out what a decel uh limit is on other towns and actually what came up was um what is a maximum decibel level for a baby uh as recommended by the American Academy for Pediatrics and that's 60 um so I thought that was interesting because I remember I thought you had said it was 40 to 60 and that's just in a regular you know environment so it's not exceedingly um not to minimize how hard it is to put a baby down to sleep um and I'm not going to um you know in in my inside self I I think I wouldn't I wouldn't live behind a bar um I went to the Southside Tavern last week uh I'm a visual so I could see just imp proximity where everything is and I don't think there's any uh noise ordinance that would actually satisfy um the residents in the area because people talk and it isn't just a music it's just talking and people walking the streets and Gathering outside and and then it comes down to we had a similar conversation when we were talking about the Airbnb ordinance and when you leave it so subjective to what's bothersome it becomes a real burden on the community and the the law enforcement and stuff um the the word pervasive is too subjective um you know to get the people that are irritated and and want to stop this and they're going to utilize that and and they will overburden our law enforcement not to say that our law law enforcement shouldn't enforce a law when there's one but um I just see how problematic this is I don't know what happened with the noise study I wasn't on Council back then I'm anxious and curious to read it and wonder why once again uh prior councils kick this issue down the the road um to land on our laps but um last week I had in in what I was thinking a compromise suggested a 9:00 um during the week and a midnight on the weekends but um after actually listening to the community from all levels um I want to retract that and um just keep it how it was um and that's where I'll be going tonight I um I I don't want us to be mediators of issues you know there is nuisance laws um that can come into play in the middle of the day if you know somebody's being too loud and disruptive um and I think we can definitely put try to fix something so much that we created a bigger problem than what the problem was in the first place I feel bad for um the residents that live around there I it it's not even a Stones Throw between the the business community and the restaurants um but those are choices that we make right uh so I'm going to retract the nine o' at the nine o'clock uh during the weekday I don't know if the rest of the council would still do that or not but um I think that this should be we created we're creating uh bigger problems than we were trying to solve so I want to keep it at what it was suggested to us by staff vice mayor getting tired thank you very much uh mayor get thank you very much um council member Matthews and sweet um you know I really do appreciate the opportunity to revisit this again I'm glad it's a it's an ongoing conversation and that we didn't come to any hard decisions last week it's clear that this is a work in progress I was on Council um long ago when we when we did that study I know council member McCarthy was as well I I I think the mayor was there um and it was Fuzzy and so we um left it to a community um Coalition that was put together and defined um and now here we are kind of Rel looking at this um I think it's I think it's a very fuzzy uh difficult thing to kind of uh put our finger on um I I want to start by thanking everyone for coming out again uh I know you've heard me say that already once tonight but I really do believe it as a public servant someone who's just a member of this community it really makes me Marvel to see folks show up and folks who care and folks who are able to speak and folks who are really articulate and passionate about their concerns that's what I love about this job I made a quip earlier about one of the drier agenda items that we had to deal with but uh I would recommend to everybody to run for office and to tackle these issues yourself and to be one of the seven people in the hive mind who has to sort of um wrestle with all these things I get a lot of satisfaction and gratification out of it and um I just really really thank you all for being here on both sides of the issue and I need to learn how to take notes without it looking like a spaghetti monster in the end at the end um but let's see uh as I go back and forth here so I'll I'll review what I I said last week um I think it's fair to say I was not in love with the ordinance that we were coming up with um I mentioned that that I I I really did uh consider this a private dispute I coined the metaphor of the wrecking ball for a rusty nail and you know I don't know who would actually wield this cudel throughout Town aside from very specific people so largely I acknowledge that this is kind of a moot argument but still it's real and as a council we need to do right by it and we need to be very careful when someone mentioned the term deputizing um the public uh I I I I kind of resonated with that because I think that's what we're on the cusp of doing here and it's a it's a powerful um tool we need to be very careful in putting it out there um the idea that the the idea of a carve out was always very tenuous it was on a tenuous thread for me I liked that we were making exceptions for some areas but I also mentioned last week that really you know the wrecking ball metaphor came from the idea that this was a city-wide ordinance it was going to be applied everywhere and that made me very uncomfortable after another week of reflection which I'm glad I've had I have come to the conclusion that I just think it's untenable I think the ordinance right now is too severe it's too widely applied um you know I saw the video that that Matthew sent in I didn't know who sent that in um I actually thought it was someone who was concerned about noise levels and I was scratching my head because what I read from that from those videos goes and I've I've been with Council M McCarthy with his fancy decel meter um in that Alleyway he can attest to that you know these these these noise levels uh for simply talking illustrate how unworkable this thing is right now and I think that's why we ended up punting several years ago and why we're back here talking about it again for the third time in a month and a half it's just not working it's and and and furthermore beyond that it's just kind of contrary to what I know about downtown SL Urban core vibrancy it's not the direction we need to be going as a city if we're trying to grow and we're trying to become more vibrant and we're trying to have a night life and we're trying to attract visitors and tourists and we're trying to attract new residents and uh Economic Development so I can't support an ordinance that defines quiet hours and has carve outs um someone said you know I it was Sean Sean Go Lightly said a functioning ordinance could address these issues and I agree with that and I think that's sort of the thing at the end of the rainbow right and we've been struggling with that for several years and I want to give credit to our staff and our legal team who have worked really hard on this they've put a lot of our into this they're impartial they're objective they're trying to do what council wants council is obviously sort of you know actively out loud struggling with this um and they're they're dealing with that whole dynamic as well uh you know I'm Michael I'm glad you're here tonight I had written this down before you stood up and spoke a little little bracket here about mother Road I go to mother I uh mother Road I know how loud it can get and that's that's now that's not your aspirations for the future that's that's even during covid really um you know and and I I think a question that Council really has to wrestle with is what happens when a new resident moves in and starts calling the cops on mother Road it's just one example of a scenario that could happen anywhere in town I think we're thinking way too myopically about this and we're not realizing the consequences that it could have I I truly feel this has uh taken too much time from staff and that we're nowhere near close to having it figured out so I will not be supporting it and I hope I'm not alone and and mayor when it comes time I I would like to ask to make a motion if that passes or fails we go on from there um they're they're will be other motions that follow that if it does not um proceed but I would like to make a motion when the time comes to deny the ordinance entirely council member Harris well um a lot to take in first of all thank um thank you all for sticking it out um it's been a long long day um and I really do appreciate everyone one staying and uh working through this um council member sweet thank you so much for taking the next step and doing your research what I did not here tonight uh was any history about Southside and that neighborhood and typically historically what it has been I think that those are the things that we have to think about I remember several years ago there was a person who wanted to just demolish all the houses in the southide because they felt that they were just old they didn't have any value and they wanted to just build three-story buildings did not have any appreciation for the neighborhood or the history or the people who had lived there or the people who still live there and so I find that troubling here we are again now we want to talk about you shouldn't live there well some folks don't have any choice they have to live there they built those homes out of uh card um crates from um from wherever they got them from some people worked for the uh for the meals and they had scraps of wood and they built those homes okay and that's where they live that's what they've got to leave leave their kids when they're gone but in the meantime they have to live there they don't have a choice they cannot pick that house up and move it anywhere and so do we not be concerned about them are they to be thrown away and say too bad this business has more rights than you have so they were there before that business was there and I would I would I would beg you to argue with me about that because it's not fair for us to say too bad too sad you know if if you can't sleep at night that's not my issue because my profit is more important than your sleep and your health and that I find disturbing someone mentioned that I shouldn't that it doesn't matter to me because I'm going off counsel it does matter to me I've been connected to the southide for a lot of years um and it does matter to me and so I think it should matter to all of us every neighborhood in this city should matter to all of us when something is wrong in one neighborhood it's wrong across the whole city this is not going to close close businesses down this is not meant to stop you from making a profit so if anyone wants to convince me or prove to me that if I can't play my music to 60 or 70 DB then I'm going to go out of business I I I can't believe that y'all are better business people than that you're better business people than that so you may not agree with me but I I as I always say we can agree to disagree without being disagreeable we can agree to disagree without being disagreeable and we always need to be respectful of other people and their opinions so I'm going to stick with my original thoughts and my original comments from last week and I'm going to ask us to this Council to move in a direction that will resolve this issue with the ordinance that we talked about last week and we can always you know everybody's going to vote the way they're going to vote and that's their individual right so that's all I have to say council member McCarthy well thank you mayor um I've been accused of being on a Witch Hunt and that I've take this very personally that's baloney um I live in a neighborhood that's very quiet and this is not an issue for me this has no effect on me one way or the other yes do I care about it I do care about it and the reason I care about it is I have empathy for for people that can't sleep in their own house I have empathy for people that have literally moved because this noise is so intense so I want to address the petition that went around it was very easy to get a lot of signatures on that petition and why is that because there were lies in it that if if those lies were truth I would have signed the petition that it was just completely a misrepresentation of what this ordinance does I I get a big kick out of this well it's only Candace I mean and people name her by name um we have gotten since I've been on Council dozens of complaints from dozens of different people I'm not just talking like one person writing five I'm talking dozens of different people I've actually kept a list of them and we we already mentioned five people have moved because of the noise that's how significant it was in their life uh it's not just one bar this ordinance isn't addressed at one bar it's addressed at a a standard that we should have for our city the mayor who closed what a year or so ago I don't know exactly when couple years ago it was way worse than the Southside Tavern because they were up on the roof of a like a second story building the police told me that they got complaints as far away is Cherry Hill Cherry Hill do you know how far away that is so we're not picking on one bar or we're trying to just have a reasonable ordinance for the benefit of the community so why is it that Candice is such a uh representative or such a a lightning rod or something on this the city manager asked her if she would participate in a study and she agreed to do that and when she did that she became a representative of the other people that were impacted by this uh she was the only only uh residents that was on the committee the other people were the downtown business Alliance the city manager a former mayor who was at the time a dis jockey and one of the bar owners so she was outnumbered whatever that is 5 to one or whatever so that's why you hear from Candace is because she was it was requested of her that she would represent sent the community and she did so uh and the man that lived right next to her he hasn't been able to rent his house for 11 months because of this that's mindboggling to me um this idea that we're going to put bars out of business is baloney uh we may have to they may have to change their their Model A little bit I'll just tell you that one night I went down to the manav Vista and went inside and it was Louder Than Hell and which is fine I enjoy loud music I walked across the street I couldn't even hear their music so if the monistic and a lot of other bars can do it any bar can do it somebody mentioned Tucson I was raised in Tucson and I spent a lot of time in bars before I was a dancer and after I was a dancer they weren't bothering anybody because you don't have to project all this music all the way out um let's talk about this study that the city um paid for and basically all that study did is take a bunch of data around town which really didn't provide any anything to us uh they made recommendations on decibels that should be allowable but they weren't Justified one way or the other they were just like picked out of the air why didn't Council and I was on council at the time as I think uh Mr Asen was also why didn't Council go for that I think the reason is they don't know what a decibel is I'm an engineer I understand what a decibel is uh and then to further complicate it we talked about DBA and DBC that's that got tooo complicated and confusing so I think uh Council just kind of punted on on that I would be perfectly happy to put decibel limits on this um I bought a as Mr Asen pointed out a actually I think the decel meter that I had when we went out was just that Radio Shack thing right I you said it was $2,000 oh okay so I had the good one it was $2,200 I bought a professional quality disbel meter on the theory that maybe we would go ahead in that route but what happened um the committee decided they did not want to bear in mind this is a committee of business people and a bar owner they decided they did not want to go that route they would want to go with a route similar to what is before us tonight so it was the bar owners that wanted this approach or at least some of them maybe not all of them um and you know we talk about people can't sleep so is that a big deal well it is a health issue there's no doubt about that that it's a health issue um if you don't get a good night's sleep you can't function as one mentioned tonight you know he'd study all week and then he couldn't sleep before the night of the exam and then poorly on the exam um and for children if they can't sleep they're not going to do well in grade school or High School whatever they're in let's talk about who came first we talked about Candice quite a bit Candice moved to this city I mean to this house that she bought her and her husband they bought a house before they bought the house they walk the area there was not a noise issue they looked at the city code and it said that commercial had to be um compatible with residential now there's been some discussion about well those words aren't binding nobody told her they weren't binding she in good faith read the uh ordinance and it said that any commercial had to be compatible with residential so after she did her homework of looking at the code walking the area and there was no not a clearly not a noise issue she bought her house the noise came after she was there and she's just one example there's many other people um somebody says that we're making the bars close at 9:00 no we're not we're making them cut their noise down by 9:00 personally I think it should be 247 but I'm willing to accept the compromise of 9:00 someone says we're making a hasty decision I actually chuckled when I heard that one um we've literally been working on this for five years that I've been on Council so uh We've we've looked at the debel approach the committee told us no do a similar to what we're doing tonight approach uh we've gone back and forth I personally hope that we can um uh resolve this soon and I guess my last point before I say where I am on this issue specifically is this is a freedom issue but that's an incomplete I'm I'm seeing Chuckles in the audience the word freedom is incomplete thought some people think that they should have the freedom to do whatever they damn well please and make as much noise as they want and it really doesn't matter how it affects anyone else some other people think that they should have the freedom from this intrusion that's destroying their peace and quiet of the house that they've purchased or in some cases rented all right so where am I on this I think we should move this isn't perfect ordinance by any means but I'm willing to support it the way it is uh as far as the downtown car out I'm open-minded about that we can leave that in or take it out but I want to move forward with this tonight because five years is enough time it's time to do it mayor sorry I talked so long thank you council member house thank you mayor um and I apologize I need to ask you to bear with me I am very grateful for the full scope of the conversation that we've had tonight I am in agreement that we need to move forward I am very appreciative of the words from council member sweet in terms of having done that work of researching and finding the history I brought this up last time that we have to look at that question of why this happened in the Southside it's been kind of talked around and I think it's it's key to part of this conversation I am in agreement with excuse me I'm in agreement with uh moving forward in a way that um is mindful of the vibrancy of our full community while also mindful of the health and uh consideration of our communities I am not willing to vote against doing this at all however I would be interested in reexamining the decel uh levels that were come to before we've heard from both sides of this that there is willingness to look at that as a reasonable compromise and it seems like what has gotten us to this point of major conflict is an attempt to apply arbitrary hours without actually addressing the root of the issue which is the level of noise so I would be uh much more willing to go back and examine what has been proposed before and look at how that might work its way into an ordinance versus um going with arbitrary hours or going in a direction that abandons this overall so thank you council member sweet and I just had a quick comment on the deel levels um I did a lot of research on many different areas of this and one was looking at other cities I looked at Missoula Montana Durango Bend Oregon um kind of a similar Vibe Mountain Town college towns and I think all of them had deciel level levels in their noise ordinance I just wanted to point that out council member Matthews thank you mayor um can I call Kevin up here put you on the spot a little bit Kevin was the business owner the bar owner um in that committee and um you know there's been a lot of things said on both sides that conflict each other um I I I saw last week where the um house rental owner um I don't know the the link that I saw uh showed that how he's presenting his his rental was you pay once every six months and you pay $6,000 or every three months and you pay $6,000 so that could contribute to not being able to rent it I don't know what renter can come up with that kind of money but Kevin uh my question to you is um you were on that committee and we talked a lot about the noise study um what do you recall as the recommendation yeah I was on the committee with um Coral Evans uh Terry who was then the uh DBA director and Candice and you know we went round and round and and it is an it's a difficult discussion to have right on the one hand she's fighting for what she has and the other hand you know we're fighting for staying in business and such one thing is this idea that it won't put undue pressure on businesses and you can sit up there and say that with all these people presenting tonight I just want to call out that that is just unfeeling but on this piece the deciel level problem we had was at the time the attorney for the police department had written an ordinance and had put decibel levels in that and the decibel levels that were in that we I researched and so did some other people and what we were saying is these don't work I mean for instance I just pulled it up the CDC says that and I believe some of the decimal levels were 40 50 or 60 30 DB is a whisper 60 is a normal conversation 60 is a dishwasher 70 is a vacuum cleaner 80 is a busy street 80 to 100 is a lawn mower 90 is a motorcycle 100 is a chainsaw so the debel levels that were being recommended that we were discussing at this meeting were down in the 40 50 to 60 which is regular conversation and in the middle of a business district where taxes are being collected for the BBB tax gets rein put in place again yet today you're going to take that away and you're going to take away people's ability to do business outside in Flagstaff one of the most attractive things for our tourism based economy and so the decimal level wasn't that it wasn't worked it's that we couldn't come up with a decimal level that was agreeable to the committee because on the one hand the residents wanted 40 on the other hand the businesses wanted something that we could actually operate outside side so to say that we were totally against the deal level is wrong it's a misstatement I was sitting there I am that mystery bar owner and so that is not correct the decibal levels that were proposed were impossible to operate under as business owners thank you Kevin and I I want to just confirm um I know it's easy to assume if you've not uh been exposed to uh how businesses operate when I was a business consultant I had one client that had five restaurants in presca um if we if we went forward with what was proposed it will absolutely shut down businesses and I know that for a fact because I consulted and did all their books all their finances and all their taxes and I know the margins and I know the variances that impact them and it's easy to sit on the outside and think well that wouldn't matter too much and and they can still survive that's just ridiculous to be they're OV exaggerating no they're not yeah and I can say councilman Harris we are good operators we do try very hard but we're not better than that when we're getting Death By A Thousand Cuts whether it's inflation covid increased minimum wage reducing um tip minimum wage getting getting taking that away and now putting a noise restriction of a normal conversation on businesses it piles up and this is just another swipe at the business Community which supports this community and wants to be here I just want you to consider that and so I know we all want to get something done but just to get something done to get it done at the expense that it will cause is Criminal vice mayor then council member Harris yeah just to quickly add to the decibel conversation which is you know it's it's a little bit it feels like it's in the past but it's it's broiling back up here a little bit so I want to make sure to uh have a comment in here as people are deliberating whether or not to think about including that in of whatever ordinance may or may not come out of this I I am a Scientist I have a master's degree in conservation biology um and I really do appreciate utilizing science I think it can be the the great arbitrator and the most objective voice in the room scientific method is something that I take very seriously and I really um Revere the problem with and and I don't have a problem with your characterization that that things got weird when we started talking about DBA versus DBC you know I think that is confusing but I I just want to give voice to what was not confusing at all to me and I I I I hate to go here council member McCarthy but when I went out with you that night and we took those decibel meter readings I'm I'm going to be careful not to use actual numbers here because I don't remember what the numbers were but I do remember the sentiment I haven't written down at home well wait wait till you hear what I have to say um I I remember what I remember from that evening which is the takeaway we were in in the parking lot of historic Brewing listening to the volume on the rooftop of the mayor which was outrageous um I'm glad that I'm I'm glad that business is not there and not doing those activities at night I think it was a real culprit I do not think it was a neighbor operating in good faith and it should not be the sort of thing that we're talking about because it's an outlier then we went to the alley way and we took deciel readings from the corner of the property of the of the of the resident who lives near the Southside Tavern and we were looking at deciel reading levels that would have triggered a police officer visit and then the train went by and the deible reading the train went by on the tracks quarter mile to the North and the decel readings spiked on top of that and I feel that that was an inconvenient fact for the argument that we can use decibel ratings as a as an objective arbitrator of what is an infraction Upon A a reasonable infraction Upon A Community member or not and so I I I just want to resubmit that for the record we've discussed this before but it's been a couple years and I I wanted to make sure people understood that I don't think tonight we can decide on decibal levels and decide on a number and do our community Justice council member Harris and then council member McCarthy I guess I'm I'm still at the point and I'm I'm not hearing enough discussion about people who live in the neighborhood I I'm not hearing people say anything about what we should do about those folks who are being negatively impacted the bar owners go home at 2 or 3:00 in the morning and go to bed the people that live there they've been up all night and maybe they can get back to sleep at 2 or 3 o'clock I wish somebody would talk about them I wish somebody would talk about them and I'm not asking you to do this now people got their hands up you know in the back but I just want people to think about that think about if it were you and if you were living in that house uh how would that make you feel and don't tell me that you shouldn't live there if you didn't want to be around noise you shouldn't live there because then we're getting ready to go down a whole another thing about where people should live and who should live where so we don't want to have that discussion I I live council member McCarthy well just to uh comment about the committee I was never invited to any of those meetings so I don't know the details that went on in those meetings the the city manager told me that and he was in the meetings that the recommendation was to not go with a B decibel uh approach you know a meter approach and that it was better to do it in a way similar ilar to what we're doing now that's all I know I wasn't there uh as far as the night I went out with Mr Asen I distinctively remember that night I remember you thought when we were in the back that the sound level was reasonable I thought it was unreasonable that night and then we walked across the street to the East and we both agreed that that was that was when the mayor was up on and that was completely outrageous and both of you and I agreed with that I don't remember the train part that probably happened but it was a couple years ago um just to follow up on what uh council member Harris said I'll leave one word empathy if we have no empathy for the people that are trying to have a reasonable peace and quiet in their own house and there's no sense even talking about this city manager yeah for the record um we did not as a committee exclude anything we did not arrive at anything the council years ago asked for a committee to look at this because there was indecision on an ordinance that included decibel levels that ordinance went nowhere we put this committee together at council's request we met over a couple of years and discussed a lot of things and the DBA took an active role in trying to mitigate some of the issues and I think some of the businesses that were um perhaps at the Forefront during these discussions took mitigating actions and frankly the issue kind of was not at the same Focus that it was years ago I I think mitigation measures had been taken and things had kind of calmed down kind of but I want to be clear I mean the committee was never intended to be a policy maker that resides with you folks at the deis the committee was intended to see if there was another way uh to be explored to resolve this issue and and there was nothing that really came of that um so here we are it's been a bit circuitous to say the least we're we're back if there is a desire to revisit debel levels it was never it was never put away as you know something that that was decided against it just didn't go anywhere thank you Sterling thank you mayor and Council and council member Asen I appreciate your statement that you would encourage anybody to run um you and I have this ongoing um joke I've said for a long time I wouldn't wish a council member seat on my worst enemy and why would I want my worst enemy in this seat and I and I know that's how we go back and forth about it you're in very t a very tough place a very difficult situation and this is why I I say that um because I admire what you all do I also admire what my staff has done and I want to take some time to compliment Maryann Sullivan for the amazing work that she has done she was vilified in a few comments tonight and that was in appropriate I want to thank her because she has drafted numerous ordinances that have come before for you as a councel for you as the policy makers to make a decision on and she needs to be called out for that for the great work that she's done thank you mayor thank you so um I too want to thank you all I mean there have been some really thoughtful comments that have um given me pause and I hear the anxiety and the worry from both um um residents and business owners and recognize how um how important this issue is to everyone and um staff thank you you have brought what we've asked for every single time and um this is just a very tough issue and and we can hear that amongst each other this is this is tough um I am not ready I I I am not ready to um to vote on this um and I can't believe that I'm saying this um but I would like to have additional conversations with people that doesn't mean more Council meetings um but with residents and with business owners so I know that um council member or vice mayor has a motion and um I will entertain that thank you very much mayor thank you everyone I'll just say at the outset that I would like to reserve the right to continue um to vote and discuss uh this matter if my motion happens to fail but my motion is to decline a i i motion that we decline ad adaptation is that spelled wrong decline adaptation of resolution number 202442 and ordinance number 2024-25 um well let's see if there is a um second I'll second okay now for discussion council member McCarthy okay if that passes this will be dead into discussion I I appreciate you clarifying that because a yes vote from a majority of council means it's over yes it would be dead on the other hand if we vote no on this motion we could do a first read on this tonight that's correct and then in two weeks come back and make amendments to it that would address the issues that certain council members have that might be the times it might be downtown carveout whatever we could come back in two weeks and and finalize and organs and make it what we want it to be but if this passes well it'll be over vice mayor thank you I appreciate your sentiment but I also want to disagree with the spirit of this I don't think it's over I think this can come back up any time and we can look at it from a completely new framework and with a completely new context it's it's not dead um this provides us the opportunity to start over certainly yeah that your key words are start over some future Council maybe a year from now or 10 years from now could bring it back uh just to be honest I won't be on Council so I won't be there Deb won't be there so so uh I think we would like to after 5 years I would like to see some resolution on this and the resolution might be it's dead in the water that's a that's a term I learned in the Navy dead in the water any additional discussion all right we have a motion and a second the motion is to reject adoption adoption thank you the motion is to re reject adoption of resolution number 202 24-42 and ordinance number 2024 d45 uh 25 and we have a second we've had discussion unless there's any additional discussion and I'm torn on this um because I I do think that we need to come to some resolution and I do want to um I mean I've stated this before that I I feel for all sides in this issue and I also know how frustrating this has been for everyone involved and again I just say that it's because this is such a difficult issue for us to um to Grapple with because there's not a um there's not a um I guess this is not black and white it's very gray council member Matthews thank you mayor um I just don't feel that in two weeks we're going to have enough data and information to make any adjustments and that's already in motion um council member um site mentioned that there's some very similar vibrant communities um that have ordinances that seem to work and I'd like to learn and hear more about that I prefer and and I'm sticking with my second on Vice mayor's motion I'd like to personally dig into that more and then we could bring it back as a fair item um and put it back on the agenda when when we are more equipped to make that decision because I do feel for the residence I um it's it's got to be tough but we're in a really tough situation because this has evolved over the years and now we've got we're impacting 25 bars and restaurants like I mentioned just on the southide so that's why I'm sticking to uh um agreeing with the motion um on the table um but I did want to just to say that it's it's not forgotten and put to bed I do want to look into it to see if there's some possible viable solutions that we just haven't heard about but at this point I I don't feel comfortable that that we could Mo move forward with what was proposed or to fix anything in two weeks well said um council member site and then whoever puts a c in the chat next thank you I we are all exhausted um I kind of want to Echo what council member Matthews is saying I did do a lot of research and this is never an easy conversation in any Community I've read articles upon articles they all have the same issue going round and round what I can tell you is that in the end it does seem like the decibel meters and levels tend to be in every noise ordinance I've looked at and I don't know where my second thought was going that in the end it does seem like it can work so I I you know I I don't want come back in two weeks and just keep doing this we're kind of at a standstill so I do care about the residents if I didn't I wouldn't be spending so much time on this I care about our small business community and if I didn't I wouldn't spend so much time on this I think that goes for all of us and I think for now I'm I'm in the boat of just saying for right now we need to drop this and I encourage all of council there is so much information out there it can spin your mind and you could go down rabbit holes which I've done but there is some good data maybe it was in the in the report from before um but I think for tonight I I think the the end game is just we need to move on council member McCarthy um question for the City attorney I believe I can ask for a roll call vote is that correct yes you can I hereby ask for it and so then we have to vote right now or can I still take the other comments when it's time to vote okay thank you vice mayor very quickly I would commit to revisiting this conversation because I also agree and I can see both sides and the multifaceted nature of this I agree that this is an issue that our community deserves us to figure it out and get it right I'll just repeat what I said earlier which is Sean Golightly said a functioning ordinance could address these issues and I acknowledge that but what I said afterwards was we're nowhere near close to having it figured out so with that said and with a commitment to looking at it again later and that is an honest to God Hand onhe heart commitment I maintain my motion that we should end this and start over at some other point council member house thank you mayor um I think folks know which way I'm leaning on this vote but just to give voice to it I understand the perspective that's being brought forward by some other members of council um however I I think it is sending the wrong message to particularly the residents of of this community and others um to say that we're going to let it go um for now um I think they have gotten used to it being let go for now and just coming back um so while I understand the spirit of what's being proposed here and I appreciate the uh promise from vice mayor on um that commitment to bring it back I am going to vote on the opposite side of this just to to give that continued voice to the resident side of this conversation and saying for them it's not enough to just keep bringing it back thank you council member house council member Harris I just Echo council member how she said exactly what I was going to say thank you that was well said all right um all right so we have a motion we have a second we want a roll call vote all those in favor wait oh yes yes and the motion is to deny the reading of the um resolution adoption the reading and the adoption um okay so a yes vote is in support of that motion and a nay vote is opposed to that so can we have a roll call vote council member sweet yes council member McCarthy no vice mayor Asen yes council member Harris no no mayor daget yes council member house no council member Matthews yes City attorney uh yes mayor it's been a while I think the city clerk lets you know that uh with our 9:30 rule that we require a motion to pick up any new agenda items after 9:30 it would have to be a majority vote a counsel to do that to continue on with the agenda I move that we adjourn is there a second I'll second is there any discussion all those in favor I I any opposed all right