Planning Commission Denies Four Peaks Plaza Rezone 4-2, Citing Density and Parking Gaps; Signage Request Advanced

commissioner DEA are you with us I am here sir very good all right let's go ahead and call this meeting to order this is the December 11th 2023 version of The Fountain Hills Planning and Zoning commission if you would all please rise for the Pledge of Allegiance in a moment of silence I Al to flag the United States of America to the stands Nation God indivisible andice [Music] for thank you moving on to the front end of our agenda Paula roll call please commission commissioner kova here commissioner dster here commissioner Cory here commissioner depa here Vice chairperson Watts here chair gray here and Scott slosberg is out thank you Paula agenda item number three open call to the public Paula do we have any speaker cards no chairman no speaker cards for agenda item three I'm moving on to agenda item four consideration and possible action on the regular meeting minutes there are two sets of meeting minutes here from both September 11th and November 13th Commissioners any conversation discussion for a motion please I'd like to make a motion to approve the regular meeting minutes of the Planning and Zoning commission meetings on September 11th 2023 and November 13th 2023 second commissioner watt seconds commissioner Dempster's original motion all in favor I I I thank you commissioner and agenda item number five a public hearing consideration and possible action on the res zone of 6.7 Acres at the southeast corner of sheay and Technology Drive from C2 PUD intermediate commercial and professional zoning District dist with a plan unit development overlay and Industrial one planned industrial zoning District to a pad to allow for development of a 36 unit four story residential Community Mr Farhad your presentation please thank you and good evening Mr chairman members of the commission and the public uh what you have before you as you mentioned is a pad request for a project under the working title The Village at Four Peaks um it is a request from a rezone uh it is a rezone request from C2 with an uh cupd or uh commercial unit plan of development overlay as well as in a planned industrial or i1 to The Village at Four Peaks pad um the specific request um based on the development plan before you is a 36 unit wrap style uh residential Community I'll describe that in a little bit uh consisting of four story uh four stories so four-story apartment uh Community featuring one two and three bedroom units uh also consisting of 637 parking spaces um the vast majority of that will be uh provided within a 498 stall parking structure and uh plus 63 uh surf uh surface parking stalls you'll see in the S plan there are two interior Courtyards and a and perimeter Landscaping proposed as well as uh con activity features to the adjacent Four Peaks Plaza uh which uh Target is the anchor for so the specific location as you mentioned is the southeast corner of Technology Drive and Shea Boulevard uh it is a glomeration of three uh commercial Parcels uh forming the subject property uh for this case Al altogether the property is 6.7 Acres uh and as you can see uh there's the existing uh commercial building um there towards the South there are only two tenants remaining there that being the Dollar General as well as a nail salon uh Dollar General has already made a arrangements to move to the adjacent buildings to the east uh as well as the nail salon um there's also a vacant uh pad building here further to the north closer to the uh Sirius was uh serus wash drainage Channel and a vacant PAD as well here uh immediately to the west of that the general plan designates this uh property the 6.7 acre property as well as other adjacent partials par Parcels excuse me as uh part of the Shea Cor Corridor which acknowledges commercial strip development as being the primary use currently uh also identifying uh opportunity for uh Redevelopment uh and uh possibly mixed use as well uh this is the uh uh site plan that the applicant has provided uh as I mentioned there will be uh one two and three bedroom units um the uh one and uh two bedroom units are pretty much split half and half uh there'll be 149 one-bedroom units 152 two-bedroom units and only 15 three-bedroom units um I mentioned uh the applicant is proposing a wrap style uh concept where the uh the parking structure here at the at the center is essentially wrapped by the uh apartment units and uh thus making it uh hidden from uh technology driver or and sha Boulevard for that matter uh just some more data on this project uh the in terms of density um this project will turn out to be about 47 dwelling units to the acre um the applicant is off uh is providing 25% open space as well as uh 95 9500 Square ft of Landscaping um the last two that I mentioned there are uh exceed the base zoning standards required for this type of development this is a rendered s plan of what I showed you previously which uh gives you a better idea of how the Open Spaces are are being you uh utilized particularly the uh interior Courtyards and some uh Landscaping uh along Technology Drive and uh throughout the perimeter the there is a uh emergency uh uh access as well as refu uh driveway here on the uh east side of the development um which will also provide some uh pedestrian connectivity to the uh adjacent uh balance of the Four Peaks shopping center and incidentally to the uh Southwest as uh some existing uh Industrial Development immediately across the street to the West although it is zoned for Planned industrial this is a town uh town-owned property um I mentioned the zoning but there's a deed restriction on the property that limits use to uh open space and trails only um but there are no immediate plans to uh further develop uh any additional Trails on that property and uh over here to the uh little bit further north to the West is a vacant building as well which used to be the Walgreens um in that side of town uh the applicant has provided some uh provided the design Concept in your pad packets uh the applicant has mentioned in their pad packet that this development is largely modeled after the uh inspired by the uh Scottdale Waterfront project although uh uh different Architects and designers are involved but uh largely using uh uh much the uh same plant pallet um offered by that uh development uh building Heights uh I should mention here is appropriate with this uh rendering here will um reach a maximum of 55 feet um that will the 55 uh foot Max point is uh will be the parit which will um uh enshroud some of the uh uh rooftop equipment there um I've provided a little uh map here as for purposes of perspective this is one of the well the sole driveway leading into this particular uh into this development uh leading straight into the uh the hidden parking garage as I uh as I mentioned earlier so this is looking East from Technology Drive this is looking towards the driveway um at the East which will be the uh emergency access as well as uh refuse access um applicant has also provided line of sight drawings from a residential property uh mentioned here 16730 East Travino drive to demonstrate um the impact of the uh the visual impact from the uh neighboring uh single family residences uh to the north so up here you you'll see the existing conditions and here you'll see the uh the proposed development from this perspective now the development standards for this development are largely Mo modeled after the r5 multif family zoning District the applicant has provided a comparison between the R5 zoning district and what they are opposing and I've highlighted the deviations uh as far as the development standards are uh concerned the biggest one being the 30 foot height limit as I mentioned um the applicant is proposing a maximum height of 55 ft although the roof line will be staggered as you might have noticed in some of the uh uh earlier slides um the side uh building setback minimum building setbacks will be uh 15 ft that that was the east side of the uh the project adjacent to Target law coverage will be actually lower than what is allowed under the R5 at 45% um the applicant is requesting some deviations from the parking standards um based on um what they have ID identified is uh modern commuter uh Behavior as well as right share opportunities that that exist out there more that a little bit later and the applicant is also uh providing 25% open space as I mentioned earlier so um in a nutshell the uh under the base zoning standards this type of development would require 637 parking excuse me 637 parking spaces the applicant is providing uh 561 um based on some of the points that I just mentioned um staff would like uh the applicant to explain a little bit more why uh in terms of justification why such a lower parking count uh would be warranted in this case and I'll provide the applicant uh to speak to that so applicant did uh conduct a citizen review um actually a couple of citizen review meetings uh after the owners within 300 feet of the uh development were informed of the request uh there were two live meetings uh one in June and one in uh September um uh now the latter meeting this development uh proposed development was discussed as well as the signed pad which which will follow although the two are uh distinct I should mention um applicant did provide uh in a letter of support from The Fountain Hills Chamber of Commerce board um there were three letters of opposition uh provided um most one that actually was a couple months ago and two were provided today um they've been forwarded to you earlier today and there were at least 15 comment cards expressing opposition now it wasn't C clear with the uh with most of the common cards if it was opposition against U the apartment development or the sign pad uh two of them specifically mentioned the sign uh pad that will follow this agenda item and there were four that specifically mentioned the uh Apartments so the uh zoning ordinance uh describes the uh four goals of the uh of planned unit developments um and and I'll leave this up here to for the uh commission to determine whether or not many of these goals uh if any of these goals have been met in this case but this would basically serve as uh criteria for whether you know in deciding how to uh make a motion for this uh proposed development and I can put this slide up back later I didn't want to read them verbatim at this point so staff uh supports a recommendation for approval as uh they find this as we find this a unique Redevelopment opportunity for the for Peaks Plaza in Shay corridor um we feel that it meets the pad District goals for uh uh per the Fountain Hill zoning ordinance and um based on the line and sight drawings that you saw earlier we see minimal visual impact to the neighboring residences to to the north which are about five or 600 feet away uh to the north from the northernmost boundary of the uh the project it also exceeds the base standards for for open space minimum open space required typically for this development is 15% uh the applicant is providing 20 %.

as I mentioned um we would like to hear from the applicant a little bit more about uh their justification for the reduced parking um applicant uh or actually staff is U as I mentioned we're recommending approval based on these uh three stipulations um now if there's going to be any change to the pl uh to the development plan that the applicant has provided um if it's it's uh if there's more than a 10% change in that uh in the development plan uh we will come before you again if the applicant so chooses uh to amend that request to uh hear uh hear your thoughts on that and make another motion so at this pain at this point I'll um open it up for discussions and questions uh Mr chairman if I may um I U Amanda Jacobs are economic IC development director um is here as well if she could follow me and uh saying a few words about this proposal yeah I think we'd appreciate that and then we'll Circle back with you for comments questions good evening Mr chair Commissioners Mr farad told me last Thursday uh that the chairman asked that I say a few words so I app appreciate the opportunity so economic development is in full support um of this project it's in alignment with the recently adopted Community Economic Development strategy that was approved unanimously by Council on September 6th of this year so just a couple months ago there's a couple of points I'll highlight under business attraction one it is collaborating and working um with the owner sandor of the Four Peaks Plaza as well as looking to diversify our housing those are key things that we need for business attraction I'll tell you I've met with most of you so I've been your guys' economic development director for over one and a half years so I started on March 7th the sandor folks made time for me on March 14th so on the sixth business day we met for some this may seem like it's it's out of the blue but we've been working together since essentially I started and they didn't have stuff set in stone they wanted to know my uh opinion and I asked them respectfully to give me a couple months to get my feet wet and so some data points that we looked at in Economic Development and have shared with mayor and Council some of you again one-on-one some of you during Economic Development Summits is one our current state when it comes to our major employers they are all service-based industry if you look look at the annual average salary of someone in that industry they're making less than $440,000 the average income um for Fountain Hills is over 880,000 the median sale price is over 660,000 Houston we've got a problem we've got a gap second um I'll mention in June again of last year the town partnered with the Chamber of Commerce to look at forming a formal business retention and expansion program through that we rotate council members every fourth um visit because we want to hear from our businesses who've made an investment in the town what are some issues and pinpoints and so where there are issues is Workforce housing if there are jobs and people are wanting bioscience and and assembling they're wanting all these things these things can happen we need more people and we need diverse housing and I may have forgotten to mention I'm a Fountain Hills resident and I am a renter by choice um I've heard through some comments most people in the site visits and our business Community our residents are supportive of this project but sometimes I do I do hear renters those people and through some of my conversations I ask what are what are those people I'm one of those people um so again support this project again from a business retention standpoint it assists the Target shopping center you all know for proprietary reasons I can't share their sales receipts but what I can tell you with the permission of our CFO when we look at retail Grocers they are within our top four so we want to retain what is there there are empty storefronts on Shay folks have started to knock knock on my door as well as director Wesley last excuse me two weeks ago we met with someone who already has a multi family project in town and they told us with great excitement that it's shifted from part-time residents that I heard about when I first started to full-time residents we are seeing more Millennials we are seeing young families as a renter in the community I live I see that I'm seeing diversity in color diversity again in families when I first started I thought I am the youngest one here I'm in my 40s by the way I won't give you the exact number but again starting to see Single Ladies seeing couples and seeing families and we're talking not yet school age we want to keep them here also for attraction this was the last week Mr Wesley and I met with a property owner who has three pieces of parcel that are vacant raw land that they have done nothing with and they told us we have read in the paper that the town has approved 316 apartment units we corrected them and said wo wo wo hold your horses that's going to the Planning and Zoning commission and Town Council and they shared with us if we have those bodies and so being conservative that all of them are single all those 316 people that we will commit to building commercial we hear that you know you guys as staff are looking at mixed juice but when we hear 316 we're hearing more um critical mass is coming we feel confident and moving forward but talk to us next year after the process has gone through the Planning and Zoning commission as well as our Town Council so much to say but again um Economic Development fully supports um this project and with that I think farhead was going to come back up and any questions you have for staff Mr chair thanks again for the opportunity thank you m Jacobs commissioner's anything for Miss Jacobs before she steps down how many apartment units are in Fountain Hills right now so Mr chair uh Mr Dan you have to help me with your last uh words commissioner um I don't have all the units off the top of my head but I'm so glad you brought that up because that was a point I forgot so you have about four different comp lexes one is ownership and Rental and I'll tell you twoo we're at over 90% And that has occurred since last March and so what I've shared with Council in all my Economic Development reports is we have a supply demand issue and this girl was almost moving to meser Chandler but the Stars aligned so I was able to to find a place but I will have to get back to you on all the number of units but about five to six complexes if that helps and all in the 90 percentile for for rentals correct to six so there's apartment units yes pillar is houses that's rentals 147 they call themselves the apartments yep but the so 147 there we got we got lunar we got Parkplace Four Peaks more is so that's a combo of rentals mhm there's one more oh there's like little the nine here and there like the nine and the six and we have a couple planned off of Glen Brook so the smaller projects that we've approved but the big ones would be Park Place pillar and lunar Luna commissioner LS Amanda can you help me understand you said this would help the the Workforce Employment or the housing for the workforce but the rental rates that are projected suggest without any add-ons without any deposits without any amenities so to speak that the minimum would be require a $60,000 a year uh income just for the one bedroom and as much as $100,000 a year income for the three-bedroom so how do you get Workforce Housing Opportunity out of a 15 to $20 an hour uh pay rate for what we're looking for in the town for to support the businesses so Mr uh chair and commissioner Watts I'm going to defer that from when the applicant comes up um for how they're pricing that I don't have control over that and if they can share some conversations we have you know spoken about with a couple of our major employers so I'm I'm going to put you on the spot they told us that it was anticipated to be $2 an $2 a square foot as a projected rental rate without a man ities without any add-ons without deposits I would assume that you would have in order to make the statement about Workforce housing that you would have backed into what the projected annual income would be required and what our current Town supports as far as that so $15 to $20 an hour only gets you to $40,000 not near the $60,000 a year annual income so I'd ask you to think about that one and I'll hear from the 60 $60 to $100,000 a year for income for these for Workforce housing doesn't qualify that's that would be correct thank you but again I'll share I'll have the applicant share more commissioner depa um yeah um can you please uh help us understand um what the occupancy rate is here in Fountain Hills in the summertime uh during the um you know when the snowbirds are gone so Mr chair and then commissioner depa so it's still so again the entire time that I've been here when it comes to apartment units it's over 90% And then we recently so again as I've been focusing on both the retention and business Attraction part and hearing from some folks that they're like I was looking at Fountain Hills but I spoke to one person and right we make an impression in 7 Seconds they said half the population leave so I'm not coming to Fountain Hills so we recently through some grant funding was able to do a tourism impact study and so through that we asked them to look at other things and what they're saying is about 11.8% leave so not half the population I don't want to chase that rabbit too far but of that 11.8 you have to assume a large portion of those are owners not renters right if you if you bifurcated that between the two your renters are probably more likely assuming we're talking about 12-month terms right they're not likely to be really blended into that 11.8 possibly I mean I I think I could make that assumption pretty reasonably commissioner depa did you have another question from Miss Jacobs I wanted to ask you question from a different perspective different angle and we got some we got some comment uh cards and emails uh to this effect over the last couple days here um and I I've had a similar disposition little little twist on it but similar when you look at Fountain Hills and economic development and business retention and I think you stated here tonight it's predominantly a service industry right I mean that's that is the Lion Share of Fountain Hills economy um what are your thoughts about you know as we as we blend you can look at the general plan and you can say yep meets my objectives from this angle yep meets it for this angle it's kind of got something for everybody and you can kind of make an argument Any Which Way off of that right what is your disposition as we look at the Redevelopment uh language in in the plan um and in your strategy plan from back in September you know related to changing that mix right I mean as you look at as we look at this parcel and adjacent Parcels to it you if you go back to its original zoning intent um which I fully acknowledge it's now C2 as the underly do you not look at that and say hey you know what it's a 20 minute parcel to Phoenix Sky Harbor it can go north south east or west predominantly South and I guess I guess it can't really go east can it predominantly South and and West right um do you not look at that and just kind of salivate over it and go gosh if I could go out and bring in you know good idea a b and c this is exactly where that anchor that employment anchor would want to land so Mr Gray so yes the goal is to start changing the mix from what we currently have but to also ATT ract and change some of that industry this is what we hear we need diverse housing we need options not everyone's going to buy over $600,000 home so whether that's bioscience thinking even of folks on an assembly line so if I was here 20 years ago yeah like it would have been nice you know that whole Area Industrial but right now we have the commercial some of that commercial is dying Amazon effect thank you covid-19 um and so I feel like this is the best use and there are other areas we're working on to hopefully rezone and redevelop to get more of again assembly in a lighter way not too intense in those bioscience companies and I'll just say two I know there were comments maybe two about Ora Valley so some of you know that is where I'm from Ora Valley we had a bioscience Corridor so I tell you too in working with some of those major employers who had 1,400 employees to 500 to to to 80 that not all of them were interested in buying a home so it's again I I always hear chicken and egg but we need to do something about the housing situation in order to start changing some of those Industries it's my professional opinion okay commissioner core did you have anything no no just thank you for sharing your perspective on this appreciate it you're very welcome I appreciate the opportunity thank you m Jacobs you're welcome got one more uh commissioner Watts Amanda before you run away sorry she thought she was going home you thought you were done you're not if you didn't have economic in your title then I wouldn't be asking these questions but I'm not running I'm just strolling but the reality is that even with the $60 to $100,000 annual salary that is going to be required to support these units on a rental basis there's a concept of disposable income as well so when you project the disposable income and compare it to what we've lost in revenue from our sales tax that $655,000 is gone this only brings us about $120,000 in Revenue that's going to expire at the end of next year so what's the benefit other than the one-time construction fees that this is going to bring when you consider we're not going to get any more revenue from it except the one time so the benefit to your point is the onetime um sales construction tax you have 316 so again I'm being very conservative everyone's a single person they are contributing when you're bringing people they're going to contribute to the local economy they're contributing to that Target that maybe it's not the top four like a four thir maybe it's it's number one it is assist with the other retention and then as I'm saying I get that this is a loss like we have to weigh all these things but we have folks knocking on our door saying we're committed to doing commercial also if you look at 316 I know it's not a lot but when you look at State shared Revenue as our population continues to grow which again we do have other municipalities outpacing Us in that area that is something that is sometimes lost but really and then talking with our our CFO it's really these folks contributing to the local economy well I think that I would ask that we talk to the CFO from the economic development platform and say what's the projected disposable income for these people the the potential rent renters see what that equates to and see if the investment on the town's part is worth it because I'm trying to figure out what the benefit is to the town and right now I see more poent if the expansion and I don't like the idea of becoming Scott stor Fountain Hill so making that equation doesn't work for me but if we do make a waterfront and we continue to expand that property I don't see any support written support from Target at this point on that they're a proponent or opponent of of the project and if we make it a Scottsdale Waterfront equivalent and we put more businesses in there aren't we going to actually detract from the potential business that is in the Town Center right now and if we are acknowledge it and let's change the concept of the Town Center to make it something different than what it is now but to harm the existing businesses I think would be a disservice to our existing it sounds like it was all no but it was but but the com the question is look at what the potential for disposable income is compared to the rental rates and what the projected annual salaries need to be to support that what kind of money do you think we'll get based on the 2.9% that we've got now for sales tax we can look into that thank you you're welcome commissioner Cory I would imagine that there's probably situations where there's dual income there as well um so that may help some of the folks um Amanda do you know what the situation has been with some of those local businesses that are in the plaza right now um like do you talk with any of those business owners including up to Target um so kind of like what commissioner was saying we don't know what their position is here but have you heard anything from them if something like this in that Plaza would be beneficial to those businesses so Mr chair commissioner Corey um I have spoken to the businesses again please note I'm not representing any of these folks but I did have the opportunity to speak to a regional director of Target and they're very supportive again when you're saying there's 316 being completely conservative that is very exciting they also shared so we know that the home and garden has kind of shut off they ask just questions of you know you're not going to give that part though away like that is still ours maybe we're going to grow in a couple you know years four to five years so it was very positive but again not representing Target just sharing my conversation with them okay thank you you're very welcome more well so Target but the other businesses as well so I've spoken to a couple and again they're very supportive thank you you're welcome Mr tavasoli Amanda I think you're free thank you I'm GNA walk back not run okay Commissioners uh questions of farad off the [Music] presentation commissioner Dempster thank you hi um so I'm excited about um having something done at the plaza and I thought the packet was very thorough thank you and just a quick note um we did get several speaker cards that um were against and people did not wish to speak but there was no reason and it's really helpful for us to know a reason why someone's against a project whether it's height or volume or number of units or just to give us a little something information to work with um so keep that in mind if you do submit a card in the future make sure you um validate your or you know give us a little information thank you um but forart I have a question couple questions um with the Sanitary District are they able to support a building of this size and the needs is that part of the initial package um you Mr chairman commissioner dster um the uh fale Sanitary District um did feel comfortable to move forward with for us to move forward with the rezone request um there are some issues with the um I I believe one of the water uh Reclamation lines lines um that will need need to be worked out but that will be uh addressed at the building permit stage um should this be approved okay thank you and I know in the past we talked about bike racks and things that I know this is a minor item but I didn't know if that has gotten into our requirements and if there were bike racks proposed for I saw um electric vehicle um stations but do you recall if there was a spot for bike uh not specifically no okay and then can I get okay um do you know the current height of Target the [Music] existing I believe the maximum height Mr chairman commissioner dster um for the Target Center is 30 feet 30 feet yeah thank you um with the parking I'm concerned with that as well I appreciate the comparison to Scottdale and Phoenix um but Scottdale and Phoenix has a great deal of um public transportation which you know we try here I think we have one bus coming in and out so um that is a concern of mine as well so I'll be interested to hear more about the parking piece there um I saw the elevators um all right I will uh conclude thank you commissioner c yeah just one followup to the height um I believe I read that the area that this building would be constructed is lower is um just kind of lower than where the target PL Target building is so if we're looking at the 55 is it 50 or 55 55 55 foot height and Target is at 30 what is the difference cuz it's my understanding that the building is actually going to sit a little bit lower where it's being built Mr chairman commissioner coryat I'd have to look at the topography um a little bit more closely to see you know what exactly you know where the finished floors are situated maybe they could answer that for us when they come up here okay thank you commissioner watts and with regards to the height I assume the Benchmark is the pad height not a benchmark somewhere else like a datum Point uh uh it will the the height is from the natural natural grade by natural grade we go by the 1991 topography gotcha because I think that area is actually higher than Target if I if I'm looking at it correctly so it looks like it could be significantly higher but nonetheless marble down the I could yes the marble will go downhill that's how I found out um as far as traffic Who provided the traffic study and what type of traffic study was it uh Mr chairman commissioner wats I don't recall kimley horn kimley horn okay it was kimy horn okay and I've provided the executive summary um off of that okay traffic study and impact it and we made an exception with the parking to allow the 2 foot 6 in overhang to be part of the overall dimension of the parking space why was that is that typical uh Mr chairman I uh frankly I don't recall that uh that exception there's a footnote on the bottom of that schedule um let me get to it I left that particular page at home sorry okay yeah I can have the uh that would be part one of the deviations from the uh um the base zoning standards I can have that seemed like a pretty significant 26 in Ines to had as part of the parking Dimension the overall 19 ft so we're really cutting it down to like 15 ft or so in depth is that that seems awfully small and if you look at the bottom of your schedule there's an aster there that says the 2 foot6 in right yeah so that I think is something we need to address as well to make sure that they're manageable parking spaces thank you is that is your asteris there though I don't see that on page 104 of the packet so is that asteris rooted in the ordinance or is that rooted in the application do you uh Mr chairman what you're seeing here is uh a snippet from the pad document that has okay so there's another another table in here commissioner kov yeah while we're on the subject of parking can we go back to your I think it was the one of the first couple slides you had about the outlined the parking had the numbers on it no it was it was a parking yes yes um it's page 102 here page 102 okay yeah so okay so we have 63 surface spots 498 in the structure and the required is 637 under the ordinance is that correct correct they're requesting 63 less than what would typically be required and it and then from the uh zoning density standpoint R5 is that our most lenient the highest density zoning that we have for apartments Mr Mr chairman uh commissioner yes that that is the I guess you say the most uh intense of the uh mult family designations and that's 25 units an acre I believe um it's 25 units an acre think John John might have better access to the zoning ordinance but I yeah I believe it's I I'm gonna say it's about from what I recall one per 2,000 uh Square fet One dwelling unit per 2,000 ft of area there's 43 560 square feet an acre so the math Works to about um and this Project's 45 units an acre 47 units of the AC 47 units of the acre so um we would be doubling our most intense usage under the ordinance currently permissible seemingly so okay commissioner depa yeah uh farad you made mention of um of a Reclamation Lin issue um is that existing or is that something that is going to be caused by this rezoning uh Mr chairman commissioner depa it's not going to be um caused by the rezoning per se but um as I mentioned earlier the relocation of that specific line uh will be required um prior to uh final inspection of the uh the development actually it would it would need to be documented um clear uh before uh approval otherwise the the Sanitary District will not sign off on it okay are you are you able to speak on the details of that that issue uh Mr chairman commissioner I'm not sure if I'm uh I have the background to to speak speak specifically on the on the water line and where it will be uh relocated to all right thank you commissioner that'll be picked up during the building um permit process all right uh farad two two additional questions for you one on height versus setback so typically what I'm used to in a PUD or pad application is if you're going to exceed the underlying zoning then you typically default to a one foot of setback for every foot of height which would put this at 55 ft uh off the property line and I'm curious from from staff perspective um what what in your opinion um allows for 55 and 30 it just seems like the ratio is is awfully tall for a 30 foot setback right where you know if we were if we were aable to a 55 ft Building height then then typically it would be a 55 ft landscape setback right yeah I I don't see that issue so much with the uh the portion facing Shea Boulevard because then you have the existing Channel there and uh um be a little cautious just to estimate uh what exactly that setback is but um to me it's uh clearly more than 55 ft the issue would be here along Technology Drive um I believe that setback is um well under 55 ft in fact if I uh look specifically at the uh site plan Tech techology they're showing 30 in the pad application I'm seeing a 30 foot set back on uh along technology there uh right it's called out right here so we're in effect treating Technology Drive as as back of house right and has it been your experience that I mean I realize the adjacent zoning is is largely industrial but the the parcel that would be to the West um well I guess any parcel that abuts along technology is is it your thought that a that a 55 foot building height and a 30 foot setback is is Equitable to those to those owners I mean would we allow would we allow the same it just it just seems the ratio seems wrong to me I I I mean uh as a as I mentioned the property directly across the street um you know that that based on what we've seen uh from the deed by the donor that will remain open um think that question would be more pertinent to some of these properties to the South and I guess the vacant uh former Walgreens across the street although there it's not quite as close here but um okay just it's just an inquiry and then my other one is um I had a lot of the same notes that uh that other Commissioners have have already talked about so I won't belabor those but um once upon a time before most of us sat up here all of us I think um the Parkplace uh pad went through and then ultimately at some point in time the town realized that fire apparatus weren't sufficient to support that structure and we ended up buying a brand new fancy fire truck with a long ladder on it we're now saying this is going to be 55 ft tall at certain points of its elevation and I'm looking at the accesses and fire lanes and know technology will just pick on that other than yeah other than the than than the eastern boundary it appears to me that Technology Drive is doubling as fire access and and as I read through the application in the packet the only reference to uh uh Chief a weighing in on this was that it's you know 2.4 4 miles from Fire Station 2 or or one to this location but what do we know about Fountain Hills is it Fountain Hills fire now soon to be soon to be Fountain Hills fire um what do we know about our equipment's ability to service this geometry and and at these Heights I I don't want to see us put put um additional burden on on the town um because we make another good idea a based off of pass another good idea based off of pleasant architecture Etc yeah Mr chairman you I'm not sure how well equipped we are to um respond to any emergencies here with so so apparatus I guess ultimately my note my reservation um tonight I I I mean I I I certainly want to um I want to hear out the public I want to hear out the applicant but I I don't think that we would be I would not be in a place to want to cast a vote for certainly um not knowing that that's an awfully impactful burden to uh to town services so I'm just going to keep that note and we'll we'll we'll walk through tonight but um again I I think that's a pretty important box for us to tick so Commissioners any other questions of farad um should go ahead and hear from the applicant Mr Morris thank you view here down at the bottom there we go thank you thank you Mr chair Commissioners uh thank you very much Jason Morris withy Morris on behalf of the applicant uh sandor and we're also fortunate to have part of our architecture team we have the development team and ownership here this evening as well and to the extent that you didn't receive answers that were satisfactory we will make ourselves available in uh Mr Tavi's uh absence and hopefully be able to answer any of the questions that were just raised so that you have certainty moving forward this is a rare opportunity and it's a rare opportunity not only for the town but it's a rare opportunity for a property owner that has held this property for over a decade and been a good corporate citizen frankly one of your larger property owners within the town and uh as we heard referenced earlier also one of the larger sales tax generators uh in the form of just one of the single entities on site if not the single largest sales tax generator for the town so as we look at what you're seeing today and what you have an opportunity to vote on it is the culmination not just of the zoning application but it's the culmination of years of work on behalf of ownership to turn around essentially an aircraft carrier which you have to do very very slowly in order to make something positive not only for the property owner but also for the town because what's being proposed this evening is not just about the applicant and it shouldn't be it's about the impact upon the town as well and we believe an incredibly positive impact you're well aware of the site now we had an opportunity to talk about the location but we're we're talking and focused on this uh roughly 6 and A2 Acre Site that is a portion of the existing shopping center um as you're aware the Four Peaks Plaza has been underutilized and is continued to be underutilized for years and whether we want to blame the pandemic or shopping patterns what we know is it is not as it stands today a successful retail experience adding benefit to the town as a whole it can however have those attributes but we also look at some of the chall Alles of this site and frankly as we get further into the presentation we'll see that some of the site challenges from a retail perspective because it is below the level of Shea Boulevard because visibility is so obscured that actually works to the benefit of the portion of the application that you're seeing today this is a rare site that hits all of the marks for a multifam opportunity and I say that having worked on dozens of similar opportunities around the valley and around the state but rarely do you find a site that has good traffic exposure and individualized traffic intersection control which allows properties to not be impacted in terms of single family residential around you where you don't have visibility issues blocking views or looking into homes so you have both viewshed protection and you have privacy protection you have traffic that leads directly out to an arterial at a signalized intersection without going through a neighborhood it has frankly responses to all of the things that are typically plaguing other multif family sites and in fact have plagued other multif family sites that have been in front of this Planning Commission but importantly even if we just follow the existing General plan that is a recent General Plan update from 2020 and an even more recent economic study for the revitalization and Redevelopment of the town and specifically this Corridor that's literally less than nine I'm sorry 90 days old all of those lead this Planning Commission and ultimately the planning staff to a recommendation of approval we've talked about the challenges you've heard those ref ref not only from economic development but also uh from planning staff that we have 65,000 Square ft of unoccupied space and that number in and of itself is a significant portion of the vacant retail within the town itself uh it underperforms as we look at and we we've got a slide that addresses this but it underperforms relative to its type across the board whether it's the type of user whether it's the size of shopping center it is underperforming and we can talk about whether that is online shopping the closure in brick and mortar the fact that most new retail has gone to a different size user or the fact that retail and itself is changing to more of experiential services and experiences that can't be ordered on the internet are typically what we're seeing as part of retail experiences but those retail experiences need people and this in fact is the solution to that I talked about the individual performance of stores let's just focus on the Target because Target in of itself is not only a a rationale for why this application is moving forward but frankly what's being proposed helps both the town and Target to be successful by adding bodies to this area and creating what your general plan is requesting which is a mixed use opportunity in this area uh and it's no secret and i' I've shared with the town and I think target is also shared with the town that this is the least successful and the last place finisher in all of Arizona in terms of sales and traffic the visibility challenges that we've referenced uh you're very well aware of this this is your town this is your shopping center this is your arterial roadway so you know the limited visibility fortunately as residents you know what's here but you couldn't know what's here you couldn't know within what's within the shopping center if you just simply drove by on Shea Boulevard between the 75 foot wide drainage Channel and the differential and gray grade overall visibility is extremely poor from that site but again ironically that leads to a perfect site for multif family opportunity because of your ability to fit it in within the context of the site your general plan that I've referenced uh you know talks about infill and Redevelopment on this specific site your economic development plan references this site specifically and talks about mix use opportunity and bringing mixed use to this site this is the economic development study that was referenced not only by your own Economic Development staff but what was for city council just recently and it specifically references the Four Peaks Plaza in essence we have done what your general plan and what your Economic Development study is asking of us and this is not an issue just for Fountain Hills but it's exacerbated by some of the challenges that Fountain Hills represents but in general this is what is happening valleywide and as as a reference Statewide we are seeing shopping centers that are right sizing themselves from a retail perspective they're reducing the overall retail and in place of that retail they're adding multifam in order to create spending in order to create a larger demographic for the area and to add life to a shopping center that you know all of you have been there I don't need to describe the shape that shopping center is in now as you look at the site itself our portion that we're focused on is the 6.7 Acres at the southeast corner of Shane technology again the fact that we have access both to the arterial and to Technology Drive at a signalized intersection is very unusual but very beneficial to the land use that we're requesting add to that the fact that our neighboring zoning district is largely industrial or open space again adds to the benefits of this use in a mixed use context I'll also point out again as you're likely aware although that area behind us is industrial and we can talk about corporate relocations and what we could do with industrial and turning back the clock and what would have happened if this was industrial today the reality is is the mar the largest portion and the majority of that industrial area is used as storage truck rental storage closed Bay open Bay Storage it it's not used as manufacturing and it's generating zero employment the site itself has been discussed uh we are looking at vacant shop space largely being converted into a community of residents and a community of residents with all the modern amenities all the luxury amenities that were stated we can talk about what that project looks like and what it is modeled after but in general the idea is to breathe life into this so that you're backfilling a shopping center not just the Target and I can tell you these conversations with Target it and I think I've referenced it in some of our earlier conversations the conversations with Target were ongoing for months in it spread into years to make sure their concerns were addressed with this new use and to get them excited about having this as a neighbor for the benefit of their sales and the success of their store but it also because we talked about the economic impact it's not just Target and and frankly this isn't an altruistic application this property owner has assembled land and moved tenants and hired architecture and engineering and traffic engineering teams and Zoning consultants in order to make the rest of this shopping center successful and be the best version of itself for the town of Fountain Hills filling it with just any tenants really isn't that much of a challenge but filling it with good tenants good restaurants good experiences good services and a healthy amount of traffic is and that's what this applicant is bringing for you uh the site itself is wrapped around a parking structure that in of itself is important because we've talked about those parking numbers and I'd like to share with you some of the backstory for this first of all the idea of a parking structure is a better parking experience for multif family residents oftentimes they are at the same level as their units so they're walking from their unit to their car without having to have to go use an elevator or stairs but even even when they do it's in close proximity to the unit itself we've referenced in the application and talked about the importance of adequate parking so because that's been a question of the Planning Commission I'm going to take a moment and talk about that I'm happy to talk about that at length but if you look at the number of bedrooms that are proposed on this site the idea just as a a rule of thumb and the idea of having adequate parking for this site we have more than one parking space for every bedroom that's on this site we have roughly 561 spaces we have roughly 502 bedrooms which means there is ample parking because we know first of all it's never going to be permanently at 100% occupancy as much as you would love that to occur the reality and the the existence of these communities just means it's not going to be at 100% but even if it wasn't 100% we could accommodate it so certainly less than 100% and knowing that the demographic especially today more than ever uses a second bedroom more often than not as an office when they can and they there is more working from home than ever means that these ratios and you saw the ratios earlier it isn't the Fountain Hills ratio but it is higher than the of Scottdale ratio it is higher than the City of Phoenix ratio we want to ensure that we have adequate parking both guest parking and Resident parking and that it's convenient because that's how you keep tenants but let's talk about what occurs if there is Overflow parking one of the reasons Fountain Hills and you as a Planning Commission are so focused on parking and making sure parking is adequate for multif family uses is because often times overflow parking goes on the streets and it goes into neighborhoods in this instance neither one of those two things would happen we have hundreds of spaces adjacent to this community that would be the first spaces used if for some reason we were off and of those hundreds of spaces keep in mind even your parking code shows us only roughly 60 odd spaces 65 spaces 66 spaces short so parking is not an issue or a concern and hopefully it won't be for the Planning Commission the unit Ms itself allows both one bedrooms two bedrooms and a small percentage of three bedrooms uh the lot coverage and this is important the lot coverage isn't maxing things out because I know we were just talking about setbacks earlier and and Mr chair you specifically asked about what a a good setback should be often times set packs are directly relative to the open space and we have more open space that's being required it's also relative to where the height is being felt and what the surrounding uses are and as you pointed out we're adjacent to an industrial use we're adjacent to open space and we're 135 ft before you get to Shay which is really how this community is going to be experienced that is the closest point while we were talking about parking commissioner Watts also had a question about the overhang and I want to clarify that because clearly you're looking at the asteris uh that Aster refers only to parking spaces adjacent to the drainage Channel which is on the far Northern portion so our surface parking not our other spaces not the bulk of the spaces and only those spaces that are up against the drainage channel so that they can have uh some additional room for landscaping so it's a very small number of the overall spaces and I didn't want that to concern the Planning Commission the architecture we've found an architectural style that we not only know works and is somewhat Timeless but also something that allows us to work with the balance of the center to make sure there's continuity with the new development and the old so it registers as one and feels as one experience from end to end as you can see there a series of materials overhangs there's depth there's a lot of relief it's not a flat facade at any point and it's obviously utilizing outdoor space and indoor space as well as common space importantly we focused on the connection between the shopping experience and the residential experience so it is true mixed use it's a vertical iCal mixed use that allows us I'm sorry horizontal mixed use that allows us to bring people from one end to another and back fills and supports those areas but just as importantly the rest of the center becomes an amenity for these residents I mean I I think we've all been in a position where it's very nice not to have to get into your car and you can walk especially weather permitting and take advantage of the rest of a shopping center or areas nearby the am ities as was pointed out are are significant everything from Cabanas by the pool to uh areas with within the community room itself uh we're talking about co-working space we're talking about Fitness areas um and a series of passive and active amenity and Recreation space including pet friendly spaces I referen at the outset one of the challenges we typically have and we're for forunate to work all over the state but when we're working on multif family cases we hear traffic almost immediately and we hear views and we hear privacy this is that rare opportunity to address all of those as we look at the grading differential and I I think this was referenced earlier by the Planning Commission you were in a bowl and the bowl ranges anywhere from about 8 to 14 ft depending upon the portion of the site we're talking about versus the sheay elev ation and we're not even talking about the additional elevation from the homes on the north side of Shay so the site sits below the roadway and that obviously helps this use because you're essentially swallowing that first story of the project from Sha Boulevard this gives you a line of sight that better explains that and gives you a sense of from Shea Boulevard and the homes on the north side of sha Boulevard what that differential over the 5 180 ft before we hit the first house which again is a rarity typically when we're redeveloping a shopping center we have homes behind the shopping center that's not the case with this uh but you can see the differential in grade and you can also see the impact of the line of sight similarly when we photo simulate the new community into the shopping center site you get a sense of what that view is from the driveway immediately Al along Travino across from the site and this gives you uh both the inset showing where that picture and where that view line is from as well as a real life scenario of what the tops of the buildings would be visible as from that site as you go higher up on Monteray looking back toward this obviously you've got more distance and therefore you're seeing much more of the Horizon much less uh impact and I think what's significant from this site is first of all the homes that are closer uh really the homes that are on Travino viewed from Monteray have a much bigger impact and you can see how the context of the Residential Building fits into the context of the rest of the shopping center does not stick up I I know there's a a question I think it was uh commissioner Dempster who is asking the height of the building the actual height of the target building is from 42 to 45 ft our roof line of the new building is 51 ft so when you're viewing that from a roadway context anywhere surrounding this property it is essentially the same height you're the you're talking about plus or minus you know 6 feet um and then of course there's a parit but the parapets are not the entire roof line the the perits are what go to 55 ft but the roof line itself is about 51t well look at that I anticipated the next that doesn't always happen uh so this gives you a better sense of what that differential is between the two buildings uh side by side and I'll also point out again chair gray you had asked about the setback the closest setback at 15 is to Target our our neighbor and our own essential commercial property owner uh rather than putting our closest setback to any third party outside um and we have tried to honor the R5 setbacks and in fact exceed them but you're right our roof height is taller than a R5 traffic traffic is the other item we typically hear when we're talking about how to place a multif family development within any jurisdiction in this instance you can see uh that kimly horn was the traffic engineer if you're familiar with their work they're very good at what they do and they have a nationwide practice the daily total in this trip generation shows that the existing zoning would be 680 trips greater than the proposed zoning so essentially it is a drop in traffic now as was pointed out to us that involves a shopping center that's successful and has tenants and I think some credit should be given to the property owner that they haven't accepted just any tenant to fill the space they have a vision for what this shopping center can be and it's not just about what's good for them it truly is what could be beneficial for the entire area but as you see that the only place that there's an increase in traffic is the am Peak and that's a total of 22 cars but more importantly as you look at the level of service which is how intersections are graded there is no intersection that's a d or an F at buildout which you know frankly these are not like your report card grades which I'm sure for all six of you work Stellar uh they are much more related to levels of service for traffic so it's not uncommon to see F intersections uh there are numerous F intersections around the valley so this is high functioning traffic and this just depicts what those two levels of service look like now I'm also not here to tell you there isn't traffic in Fountain Hills especially seasonally and especially depending upon the time of day and where you're trying to go but I can tell you the impact of what's proposed is actually a decrease not an in increase in traffic overall so when we look at where you place this type of development and why you would do this this it's hard to ignore the facts that staff your professional staff relied upon when making their recommendation they looked at the general plan they looked at your economic study they looked at what the community has asked for in this area they looked at the status of the current shopping center and the specifics in the zoning ordinance and recognized the sight lines aren't impacted the view corridors aren't impacted the traffic is positively impacted and this will give economic life to the rest of the shopping center if given an opportunity to develop so for those reasons and the reasons you see listed there we would very much urge your support and a recommendation of approval I'm also happy to answer any of the questions that didn't get answered earlier because I I think there were some specific ones and I'll I know you'd like to hear from the public as well but we can also talk about the demographics and the rents and the impacts and who our target market is so with that thank you very much I know you've indulge me and give me a lot of time but I had a lot to cover and I look forward to discussing anything else with you thank you Mr Morris we appreciate the presentation um Commissioners questions of Mr Morris commissioner Watts I I would like to know on that third bullet point who you think the majority of your target uh renters are going to be I'm sure you've done I I can't remember the name the third bullet thej bullet point the organization that you used um that you plan on using for rental management Property Management I'm sure they've done some demographics about who the available renters are who do they identify well well frankly the first thing they look at not only the community service that we're looking that we're working with uh who is a national service and obviously very familiar with this Market um but more importantly the very first thing we would look at is what is the vacancy rate in the town of Fountain Hills before we look at who the demographic would be is there a need is there demand for what we're doing and you've heard and we've verified your numbers are astronomical uh so to have consistent yearround vacancy rates that are in the 90% or occupancy rates that are in the 90% lead us to make this investment and I I really didn't focus on the investment and I should have in order to make this a reality you've got a shopping center owner that is essentially doubling down on Fountain Hills because instead of just trying to rent what they had they took the long-term approach and said what if we move tenants and what if we bought additional land that was you know these vacant pads next to us in order to make this work so they did and they did that knowing that there was an occupancy need in this area so then we look at what the target is well and talking to the school district we know they've already done an internal survey that if a community like this at the rents which you know $2 is probably the high end it's likely because fortunately our land basis is obviously very good we own the shopping center so if you take the land costs out as you're doing your Prof Forma it gives you a little bit more flexibility than a typical developer going in and also buying land and doing construction and development so if you look at anything from a185 to $2 a square foot these units the the majority of them are one bedroom and two bedroom units that puts you I think the one-bedroom units are about 728 and I I think the two bedrooms are about 9930 give or take those at a185 to2 are still in the 1300 to you know a a single bedroom is around 1300 which again not exactly Workforce housing but for what the need is and what our demographic that we see within the town of Fountain Hills very achievable the two bedrooms are particularly achievable if you're thinking that there are two residents that could potentially be with that you're talking about a sub $1,000 rent for a two-bedroom being shared so that is actually achievable from that standpoint from a Workforce housing the three bedrooms are likely going to be people who want extra space who want a home office who want to perhaps you know they have a child or they may have the need to use additional space for whatever their profession requires that's a very small portion of the overall that's I think 5% of the overall so as you look at the one and two bedroom it actually does allow folks who are renters by choice people who will take an extra extra bedroom for themselves and use that as an office or extra space perhaps they have guests or a one-bedroom being utilized by an individual is still you know sub $1,500 a month so we believe you cover several different demographics and I think anyone who is building a new community is going to rely on several different demographics not just one we're not posing ourselves as the solution for every housing issue in Fountain Hills but we're recognizing that you have a very low inventory of available rentals you have major employers who have said if the rentals were there our employees would take them at these rates and we have people people who are still moving here okay thank you commissioner Corey yes thank you Jason enjoyed that presentation um I appreciate the research that you did with the other tenants so we know that they're supportive um I also appreciate the continuity with the existing building um that would be important to know that we're going to get a similar look and feel and also for mentioning walkability which is part of our strategic plan um and that's very important um question about lot coverage we I heard that we were going to use less what was it 45 versus 50% lot coverage Mr shair chrisher Cory that's correct we're we're below the maximum lot coverage and we exceed many of the setbacks okay so with a little bit more open space what are your plans there are there going to be uh more U outdoor spaces trees Landscaping sidewalks Mr chair commissioner correct uh it actually allows us much more Landscaping than you would typically find um um we're fortunate that this is being proposed as a wrap uh what we call a wrap development meaning all of the parking is hidden in a parking structure often times uh and you see this around the town there is surface parking which means there's more asphalt there's less landscaping and it it's just visually less appealing and it adds to the heat island this is largely landscaped area and concrete and then walking paths that you know selfishly take you to the shopping center itself uh so as we said it's an amenity but it's it's not entirely altruistic we'd like to see those people shopping at the shopping center excellent thank you and I'm trying to think if we have wrapped parking in another location in Fountain Hills I know we have parking underneath buildings but this might be our first I Mr chair commissioner I believe it is uh it's a extraordinarily expensive parking solution uh but it also results in the best look overall uh podium can be great but often times uh you find yourself short of parking or you're going so far Subterranean that you do a mix of both Podium and then surface parking this is truly an enclosed solution so on that note you mentioned that you mirrored this after another property in Waterfront Scottdale I I believe the word we choose to use and we try and repeat as often as possible it was inspired by an existing project uh to keep us clean but in in this instance yes it it a lot of the design cues were taken from the Waterfront project which is sort of the Premier mixed use project so what I'm getting at is does that property have the wrapped parking as well and has that been successful it the answer to both is yes uh they have some Subterranean component and then it's they've got a wrap and it's been it is in fact on a peroor basis the most successful uh in the state at its last sale okay and we've also you haven't asked but I will add on uh we've built these to condominium standards uh with the idea that we want to make sure that this is not a uh a temporary structure this is built to last and it is built for hopefully many generations of use okay thank you Jason thank you commissioner depa yeah uh thank you Mr Morris for um for being thorough with this presentation you answered most of my questions that I had written down here but I want to go back to um chairman Gray's concerns uh initial concerns about about life safety or fire safety with our limited fire department um as you were doing your due diligence uh did you consult with the fire department to see what their concerns were are about the um about life safety Mr chair commissioner Depot thank you I I had forgotten to to mention that but yes I confirmed before I stood up that we had submitted our plans as part of the application process so that the fire department has had an opportunity to review them but beyond that we've also had individualized conversations to make sure our construction methods and what the town anticipates conforms with what you already have um we would not move forward with this application if that were the issue because even outside of the Town's concerns about the cost of new apparatus which won't be necessary the cost to the building owner for fire insurance would be astronomical if that hadn't been fire rated with the town okay now um thank you thank you for that now regarding that open lot um I noticed in your um designs here that it is uh pushed back close to the to the wash there to the um uh to the uh drainage or the Watershed uh system that we have in place um is there are there any plans for any overflow uh now that it's going to be um uh Port concrete or or black top um we are there any concerns there with that thank you Mr chair commissioner yes there always are when you're Tak area and you're adding uh additional volume that is typically the case with vacant uh or desert land in this instance however this is already uh an area that's not permeable you're you're creating some additional roof volume but you're not taking ground area that would otherwise absorb that and turning it into concrete essentially the areas that we're developed are already impermeable impermeable surfaces that being said we're doing an individualized assessment to make sure all of our and we're required by the town to make sure that we're retaining all of the uh drainage on our site any of the uh drainage that we need to and then any of the flow through the site isn't going to be changed or altered in a way that's detrimental to anyone Downstream so we do have a a fairly lengthy engineering report just down that topic all right well thank you commissioner dster thank you thank you Mr moris I just have a couple of questions and u i I was surprised to see that only three residents attended each meeting is that correct with the packet only only three at each meeting Mr chair commissioner it was more than three uh because there were couples involved but it was fairly consistent with each meeting because frankly after the first meeting there were questions that we wanted to have answered that most of the questions because the majority of the residents that we spoke to were residents who were on uh immediately adjacent to uh sha buard so trino trino and one resident from montere because of that we had a follow-up meeting because those residents really had the three concerns not surprisingly that I talked about how does this impact their view from their homes to the mountains that they're typical typically able to see already over the existing shopping center what were the sight lines from these units into across uh sort of 580 ft away across Shane and across the existing property to make sure that wasn't going to be a PR a privacy concern and then the traffic where is the traffic flow what do we anticipate um because of the low turnout and and at the suggestion of one of the council members we actually reached out to the Property Owners Association that also has some architectural control and I'm forgetting the acronym so forgive me um you're probably yes thank you uh so that they could share the application or the notice of the application with their residents because they have a much larger reach but you know it's not surprising uh given the impact that we have the relatively limited impact we have from this site that the residents we would hear from are the ones closest uh across Shay but not I know you've had an application recently that had far more interest uh but frankly that had far more impact so we believe that sort of the interest in this case is probably commensurate with the impact that we're having um I I'd also note peculiarly we had the good Good Fortune to be at Town Hall Wednesday Thursday and Friday of last week and we were checking regularly about any neighborhood notice um any input from the neighborhood and at that time there were maybe two or three notices as as late as last week and I believe all and I could be corrected but I'm fairly certain all of the 15 additional comments came in today between 1 and three something to that effect okay thank you um they're very similar looking at the renderings it was hard to tell um do each of the apartments have outdoor living space thank you Mr chair commissioner yes they do okay um because that's really important here with our climate um and you kept you said a few times that you do not expect 100% occupancy so what what do you expect for occupancy commissioner and and Mr chair would' be very fortunate to stay consistently in in the 90s uh and I think any property owner would be happy with that sort of occupancy uh because it allows obviously a return but it's also not bursting at the seams and then how how do you come up with the size of the property and the the number of units and the height and everything do you I you know can you briefly just explain how you come up with you know the size of the building and the number of units it Mr chair and commissioner that is such an interesting question and and I don't know that I've ever been asked that I can I'll give you from give you context of why I'm asking um otherwise I'm going to talk for 20 minutes about how I feel thank you I'm asking because I you know with uh uh looking around at the rest of Fountain Hills um the scale to what we have existing um you know Four Peaks um across from Safeway the apartment complex half condominium half frontals that's uh 212 units there spread out it's a a very large um Community Parkplace um you know the buildings are they're massive there on the Avenue um but this is so much bigger so I'm just the scale compared to what we already have I'm just curious about that I appreciate the question and I can talk to you about a few different rationale for where we are and why we are where we are first of all this isn't the village context it's not the A and the the site context is a little bit different for that area this is an area that's between the arterial and an industrial use to our immediately to our sou it's also a depressed site uh so we have the benefit as I said of almost some somewhere between eight at the lowest and 14 at the highest feet of grade differential from the road just from the roadway you know as you go up to Monteray it's significantly higher than that in terms of elevation change and there is also one of the unique as aspects of this site it's also surrounded as you go to the other side of techn te ology that starts to to creep up as well so we're below all of those data points which means that despite the fact that we are you know a roof line of 51 feet four stories with a a parapet on top of that as we look at the context and one of the the photos that I was anxious to share with you was the context of the entire shopping center because you ask her where does this come from it comes from the site context and I'm sure our architectural team would be able to be much more eloquent about this but as you look at the rest of the shopping center noting that you've got a different a residential use instead of a commercial use but you see that you're adjacent literally right next door to a a 42 to 45 foot building having a 51 foot Residential Building in context to that especially because of where we sit in reference to the street system it works it's not overbuilding and just to give you a point of reference this type of construction uh which is essentially concrete and stick can go up to 72 feet 78 feet depending upon the the context and the development and what we're doing in the kierin area for example or I I referenced a case at Thunderbird in Scottdale road which very similar to this is a dying shopping center that installed a church in order to keep the space active but frankly that church isn't a great tenant mix with retail because they tend to get busy at the same time and some of the tenants are very unhappy on Sundays and because their parking spaces are being taken so that site goes up to just under 80 feet overall um and it steps back back so it's not a matter of maxing this out if if and I'm not saying that that's what we're being asked but we could have placed more units here but we thought the context of the site worked with that area and the heights of the building adjacent to us okay thank you anything thank you I I've I've got a okay I've got a couple um one I'm I'm surprised commissioner depa missed a question about mechanical screening and and rooftops one of the gaps in in our zoning is um ironically we failed to take into account the elevation changes um that this town is kind of inherently blessed with and I realize that I think under C2 farad will tell me that there actually are no screening requirements um for mechanical apparatus of of any type um I know there's parapets here but is is the intent to screen those such that those adjacent residences are not going to see condensing units racked out at the at the rooftops Mr chair precisely it is a system and I I'd like to give some credit to the neighbors even though I I have a feeling uh we may hear from some the idea of screening that entirely and taking those viewpoints from both monay and from uh trino thank you both trino and Monteray was precisely because of that question the idea was they want to make sure that they're not going to be looking at hbac units um and not seeing mechanical from across the street from their sight lines so that is that the nature of our request for the additional 4et of parit wall was to ensure that that doesn't occur okay um second question is um the parking is obviously a sticking point um in Fountain Hills and our our tables were just revised in consideration of limited ride share opportunities um you know limited public transportation Etc is there a negotiated either preliminary or final uh overflow agreement with the target parcel or ownership there be uh Mr chair because there's common ownership we actually have access to areas outside of our 6.7 acre parcel that we're referring today so when I refer to shoing center with hundreds of spaces Target is guaranteed a certain number of those but that's not every other space okay okay um and then all of our density Cals they're all within the boundary limits of of this PUD right we're not bridging puds or pads you know Mr chair I'm so glad you reference that because I meant to to answer that in reference to uh commissioner's question because it is not actually double that number I believe and uh I've got backup from Stephanie but the number of units that we could put on this property under the existing pad I want to say it was about um yeah and so it it's the difference between that and 316 so it's not a true doubling of the density it is an increase over the the base R5 density and one of the things we haven't done here to remain true to the application that we typically do in every other instance when we're creating mixed use is we get credit for the entire shopping center so the numbers you're seeing are obviously based on the 6.7 acre parcel but in almost every instance when we've done this whether it's Papago Plaza or Thunderbird Square uh all of those Incorporated the density based on the overall because it becomes really one mixed use project but we have put ourselves in the most conservative density category and your staff has reviewed us just on density for that one parcel okay I appreciate that was a much longer answer than I appreciate the clarification um my most interesting question though is when I when I look at the kimley horn drawings and I look at the landscape plan or um it translates to the to the colored renders when you look at the way that the the parking Drive aisles are laid out everything comes to an abrupt stop and that makes me think there's a master plan for the overall development of of both Parcels in concert is that is that fact fiction or somewhere in between that there's that there's a that there's a that there is a master development plan that that then you know is a more macro view of of this in a in a wh if scenario Mr chair I I said this is years and years of planning and they've obviously gone forward with a major investment in this application in order to impact the rest of the shopping center it it's somebody who just owned that 6.7 Acres wouldn't be going to the extent that this property owner is because they own the rest of the shopping center other than the target building so when you say is there a master plan I think everything was done with an eye toward how would work together with the understanding that if we're successful with this application it is a part of that that the rest of the shopping center would get improvements so that you didn't have an older version and a newer version side by side so that they look like they were planned together constructed together but I don't think we've discussed or contemplated or planned for massive changes to the circulation or for existing building outside of that envelope turning into something other than existing buildings I think we've contemplated different uses but not different building locations or a different site plan if that answers your question so so no no master development plan that would have an option within it that would show the conversion of residential across the rest of the the adjacencies no no okay and I should point out sandor is a commercial developer in states that is this is an adjunct to the success of their commercial it it's not a line of business it's a necessity for this site and just for clarity the reason I ask is is it looks to me on the Eastern limit that there's a match line set up in the drawings and and there's just abrupt stops to to the drive vials um where If This Were If This Were a development without the intention to extend it would have some softer it would have some softer edges to it and the other thing that that jumps out and and makes my mind go there is it seems odd to me that the enhanced Paving would be for the garbage truck on the on the Eastern limit versus you know kind of the the prominade and the the public spaces out front but nevertheless answer my proud of our refuges uh but and those are are details that I think are worth noting and and I was I just had whispered in my ear that we do have Improvement plans for the the rest was for verifying what I was saying but you know the target building is owned separately uh so we do have transition and Paving plans and and match plans that are continuations of those I think what you're seeing in the abrupt stop is more the confines of rpad more than the confines of what will actually be created because there are no additional approvals necessary for some of the things that will happen off of those match lines okay I mean my underlying what I wanted to get to was that the Eastern p a has no intention to be converted to residential that is correct okay commissioner Watts easy question so if if everything remains status quo and you rem you retain the R5 you'd have to take off I'm sorry well there C2 now with a PUD C2 never mind if we if we went to the R5 you could just take off the top floor right but then I assume the economics wouldn't work would that be a fair assessment yes sir but we would address the development units per acre with that you're pushing by that same third 30 some percent to get to the pad yeah and Mr chair Vice chair a few different answers to that uh because I can make an easy question difficult uh first because of the type of development we're talking about and one of the concerns of the town is ample parking it no longer becomes a wrap because you'll have a four level parking structure uh even though you would have less units you would still need a four level parking structure to make sure you have ample parking and you would have a a three-story building so it wouldn't parts of the parking structure would Peak above the actual units um or you would bring down the parking ratios because the a deck of parking doesn't match a deck of units the other is that the investment that is being made is made on a 6.7 Acre Site if you're going to do fewer units it's probably a different development type it's probably closer to Garden style if you're going to do something less which is surface parked and will likely take a bigger footprint than 6.7 units uh or 6.7 Acres so there are a few different considerations that would go into that but as you said this is a C2 parcel anyway we don't we don't have that benefit is there any parking that's going to be below grade or is it all above grade I believe the existing structure that's being proposed is partially below grade you know how many feet I don't I I I'm I'm if my recollection is correct it's about a half Story Goes about a half story below grade okay at its starting point Thank you thank you I think we'll let you take a break I appreciate it we uh of course we reserve the the right to call you back after citizen comment Perfect all right let's go ahead and open up the uh public comment and um participation ch chairman excuse me we received 15 Comet cards um stating they were against the project we have 14 speaker cards they'll be called in the order uh they were received the first speaker will be Alan skillcorn and on Deck will be Larry Meyers Paula while there're um queuing up here what were the counts of um did that include counts of comments introduced by email over the last 48 hours or so yes chair okay um and then farad could I ask before councilman Skiller corn speaks um is it is it possible to give uh get a hold of Chief a while we're going through the public all right very good all right councilman well thank you very much I'll be brief because there's 14 uh but I do want to thank you guys for what you do it is appreciated and you have a you added tremendous value to the town so we really appreciate your time uh you know I'm just concerned about traffic uh I'm concerned about views and I'm really concerned about the lack of open space uh so I would ask that this go back to the drawing boards thank you very much thank you councilman Paul and Mr Myers did requ request an additional minute in advance we'll give him four minutes on the clock I'll take an extra 10 after an hour and a half of sales pitch uh chair Commissioners if you read my lengthy email you know where I stand on the rezone um a definite thumbs down to the use you also know a few of the reasons um of which none have to do with the details cuz it looks like a fine project to me aesthetically uh parking Aesthetics setbacks traffic height Etc what I would request is the same thing I requested 20 years ago on that piece of land when it was once vacant that we do some math and uh we debate the big picture as opposed to wondering how many parking spaces there's going to be and whether the sandor can make a lot of money off of the project or those types of things is the use of L this land in this use the best long-term use for all aspects of what the town wishes to be would not the original use of this land which was zoned as the master plan community that it was intended to be be a better use of the land instead of what we did do 20 years ago turn it into a failing strip center that's what we did and the math was right there in front of folks just like you and our Council and our mayor and our chamber and everybody else and they didn't look at the math so what I would ask is don't pay lip service to the use of the land while debating the Aesthetics whatever of the of this particular use like at some foregone conclusion that this should be there but instead of having little mines have big mins not short-term fixes for a failed strip center long-term vision for a really vibrant Town added to the great features the town already possesses and I would like you to ponder where we'd be today had small mines not prevailed in the year 2000 what if we had sought an anchor corporate entity such as they did down in McCormack Ranch for that land back then we wouldn't have this shopping center that doesn't work because it was mathematically never going to work some of the same people that are here today said so back then and nobody listened by now things would be quite different Fountain Hills demographics would be more diverse they'd be younger Fountain Hills would have a larger employer than the school that would be a good thing and the school enrollment would probably be stable instead of declining businesses would have more full-time residents frequenting the businesses instead of the ever expanding part-time population that we have today and best of all for me this debate doesn't exist before you dismiss those of us who think big While others think small apartments uh may I read you some excerpts from a December 5th press release yes this December 5th okay quote ASM is investing 300 million EUR over a period of up to 5 years to design and construct a new state-of-the-art site on more than 20 acres in Scottdale Arizona ASM will be locating over 1,000 high-paying technology jobs to our city unquote said David deed Ortega mayor of Scottdale so before you say it can't be done it is being done on 20 acres not 40 acres done in a place not nearly as great as Fountain Hills think about the impact of a thousand highp paying jobs as opposed to 300 Apartments think about the impact on the businesses the schools and the new opportunities granted it will granted it will require larger minds and certainly harder work than is currently being exhibited over time and I'm talking 20 years by Mayors councils Chambers Economic Development directors Town service employees and all the like Mr Myers you got to wrap up please okay for tonight I'd like you to step back and debate the big picture leave the details for a later date if the majority of you decide to go small but while pondering this remember developers don't get to tell us what we should be we tell them what we want to be thank you next speaker is Mr Yetta on Deck will be Jane Bell good evening chair Commissioners uh Jeff Isetta Fountain Hills resident and also a renter I usually watch on YouTube but I thought this was important enough to speak this evening so here I am um I'm in support of this project because mix use developments such as this create a much-needed symbiotic relationship between residents and businesses every vacant storefront at this Plaza and throughout the town of Fountain Hills represents potential tax revenue the additional housing provided by this project will support existing businesses and attract new ones which will ultimately benefit the entire town I believe the average age of Fountain Hills residents is 58 we are a community skewed towards retirees so I'd like to share with you a younger perspective that I feel is often overlooked here in town now I cannot speak for all the Millennials but I feel that is important to share that this type of housing that this development will provide is highly sought after by Young Professionals of my generation we look for apartments in good areas that feature amenities and have convenient shopping and dining options Additionally the location um on Shea Boulevard allows quick access to Scottdale Tempe Mesa so you can get the experience in a big City without having to live in it um let's see here I will conclude by saying that it is necessary for every Community to have a diverse array of housing options and that smart growth and development is essential in building a more robust business Community while also preserving our unique small town atmosphere here in Fountain Hills I highly encourage this commission to support this proposal thank you for your time thank you chairperson and uh Commissioners I stood here 20 years ago with Larry now I'm a little bit older and I hope wiser but nobody listened we gave them the facts we gave them the books all the information for it and it was ignored now we have this we need to watch that this isn't going to cost Fountain Hills money from the sewer to the water to the fire and the rest so the sewer can go now but is that going to cause us to do in the future then with this many apartments I think you've got to really stop and look at the cost estimate for this building or Fountain Hills for the future our roads their water everything needs to be looked at now you what's talked about the cost of these apartments Phoenix it'll take over two years to even uh build out and to rent those it's a long time your rent the person has to have three times that amount to qualify for an apartment so you're looking at 65,000 and 70,000 to get people in there what's going to happen if we don't get that kind of a salary and that amount that for thatment what's going to happen to it are we going to be back here and we've got a B I think it's all those things that need to be taken and there's another thing you have a lot of people here tonight but you really got to realize that lorri Sher and her husband walked so that all these people would have this information I live on Monteray I never knew there was any meeting about this at all but but it's people like that that get the attention and get everybody educated thanks thank you Miss B next speaker is Liz Gildersleeve and Jim Spence good evening Commissioners thank you also for your great questions following the presentation I really appreciated a lot of your questions but it seems to me that it would be prudent to slow the decision on this rezone request as it's the last commercial space of its size at least in Fountain Hills Pera perhaps ask yourselves whether small apartments will attract the quote young families to Fountain Hills that the town claims to want I think it's worth finding out whether our town economic director uh has done any recent work in trying to attract a major business or manufacturer to this property something like an Amazon distribution center or a medical supply manufacturer in my opinion that might be a better use of this property and could attract more of those young families and young professionals that everyone claims to want versus filling this space with yet another apartment building so I would just caution this commission to slow the rezone decision on this until all options have been thoroughly researched perhaps schedule an another update from the town economic director for a future meeting for starters find out what she's done what she's tried to do or what she's planning to do this property has sat vacant for years what's another few months to make sure you're making the best decision for the future of Fountain Hills thank you thank you Mr chair Commissioners thank you very much for hosting this party um I would like to address several things but I didn't have the the I didn't see the the presentations that were going to be here prior so I have you know very little information that I could go back to on this but I did have a couple of questions U the parking issue um I'm I'm kind of at a loss particularly with the traffic situation how you can add now if we go with the 90% um uh rate of you know uh occupancy and if you go with maybe one and a half Cars per you're you're still looking at cars how does that equate to a reduction in traffic I don't know it greater minds would have to figure that one out for me but I will tell you that I moved here I purchased my home here my wife and I have made our lives here with retirement in mind and my home is the one that they use used for their line of sight and I have many more issues than just line of site it's quality of living I don't want to put up with Scottdale I don't want to see Fountain Hills become Scottdale I don't Champion that kind of development out here I don't think most of the residents do the issues that I have with this particular build every one of those that I love the outside living space you that's a wonderful concept but to me that's a balcony and that balcony looks directly into my swimming pool and my spa now we're kind of like I don't want peeping Toms I don't want people being able to look at my grandchildren I don't want people being able to look at my my children or my wife and myself when we're out there trying to enjoy the view that we have the view that we have will be detrimentally impacted by this the parapets that they're talking about to hide the air conditioning stuff we're still going to be able to look down on that that that doesn't really concern me as much as the height itself because that takes away a view of the mountain to the right by perspective and and when we bought this home my real estate agent took a look around and he said that is your million dooll View and I agreed with him that million dooll view is going to be adversely impacted and the value of my home is going to go down relative to to other other sites and the fact that the rest of the Fountain Hills Community is not really aware of what's going on here they're really not going to care all that much because they don't drive by it if this development were to take place down at Fountain Hills Boulevard and Shay you'd have a whole bunch of people sitting here waiting for a chance to talk so yeah it it's those of us who live in this area area are the ones that are impacted and I would ask that the commission take into consideration our concerns privacy our concerns of increased traffic I loved the increase um uh sorry the U safety issues for fire and that would also U include ambulance and and and so on and so forth uh not to mention police you know they're going to have to have access as well so with all of these things being taken into consideration please don't forget the individuals that moved here for a reason that live here for a reason that support this town for a reason because it's kind of on its way out the the perspective itive that we had when we bought so thank you thank you for your time and appreciate your consideration thank you Mr Spence next speaker is Nancy odow ski on Deck will be John [Music] Gilbert good evening and thank you for making this time available to us my name is Nancy owski I've been a resident for 25 years here in Fountain Hills I see this area up there at the Target Center as a business area and I've been attending Council meetings off and on for 20 years and I remember a lot of different conversations about businesses that were talking about coming to Fountain Hills and there was never this space why wasn't this space used then councils PE uh Planning and Zoning lots of decisions have been made in the past that have put us in this predicament right now I'd rather see a twostory functional manufacturing area or any other type of um Tech business something like that there's lots of different opportunities but we've never made that space available and I appreciate the fact that there is an owner that bought that land and tried to do something with it but I didn't I don't think we've worked well with helping to make it be the best it could be people travel for their jobs people in Fountain Hills Drive to Scottdale to Mesa to Tempe all over the valley and people would drive here to do their job to for a job um just in the same way I found it interesting to hear that the resid review was in June and September when a lot of residents aren't even here to be able to participate um I thought that was a real interesting uh tidb but and oh my goodness did I hear electric charging stations oh let's talk more about that I wouldn't want to live there and be in the middle of the complex to look over that wrapped around parking area do you think that that would be really one of the incentives to choose those that particular apartment and just in case people aren't doing the math there's 76 less parking spaces and all the conversation's been in the numbers of 60 and then real quick like on the signage issue last council member or last council meeting they voted down the opportunity for two businesses whose request was put in a day late due to a medical emergency of an employee we don't need a huge Target ld3 uh lighting sign up there maybe Target needs to refresh their signage but we don't need that so please don't consider it thank you for your time thank you Commissioners and chairperson thank you I'll be brief um my name is John Gilbert I'm with radic law uh I'm here representing John headed and his companies uh Carl Cactus LLC Adobe storage LLC and prevco subc LLC which is which are situated directly across the street at 10,000 North Technology Drive right across the street just south of the uh the vacant lot um Mr has concerns has to do with parking to a certain extent because being there if there's not enough parking in the Project's of parking lot they may be on the street they may be in his parking lot also his concern also has to do with traffic of course there's going to be increased traffic up and down Technology Drive but his primary concern and he had written a letter um I think farad and uh and and his his primary concern had to do with the safety of the children there's going to be children living there there's the it's right on Technology Drive which leads to an industrial park there's going to be trucks up and down and there's no playground in the uh in in the complex there is nowhere for the kids to be other than out on the street that was his concern it was it was it was it was safety safety of the children and thank you thank you the next speaker was crystal Kavanagh she had to leave but she wanted to mention that quote do not rush to rezone for apartment corporate entity would be preferable the next speaker is Sher Spence and then Pamela Curtis oh it isn't okay okay I be I beg your pardon okay uh so we have uh Pamela Curtis please and then Joanne lyes okay so hello Mission I don't know how to address you as I haven't been here since 20 years ago and I was hoping never to have to be here again and when I was here 20 years ago there were a whole bunch of us because that whole shopping center they took into consideration Monteray and uh burky Mo they took into consideration all of the surrounding area fir Rock everything the reason I wasn't at this first little meeting that they had where only three showed up is cuz I was out of town and I got in the letter like 3 days before the meeting I was there in September I was one of two in that room um and again it's because people were not aware I have lived here been here for over 29 years came with a 21 month year old there were no Apartments none I couldn't believe it in Fountain Hills at that time since then a lot have been built but has done nothing to improve the stores and the commercial entities here regardless of how many have been built including Parkplace which is not even completed yet um where am I going with this I have no idea um so in fact a lot of commercial buildings left the long-standing Gridley store which was a great store we couldn't even keep a Dairy Queen across from the fountain we couldn't keep a Baskin Robbins Taco Bell went out the things that did move into this shopping center which we fought 20 years ago have left because there's nobody shopping there and there's nobody working there you don't have people living here that want to be paid $15 to $20 an hour this also at that time my kids were in the schools and we built um Middle School nice Middle School went there for parks and wreck basketball my kids played I understand that has since closed because we don't have the children here to be in the schools we know that Four Peaks did as well and I've also heard there might be uh Apartments considered for that area which would be awful too because it's so nice there with all of the playgrounds and everything but anyway this saying they only have 15 three bedroom apartments that's not conducive for families that's not going to increase our people at the schools our attendance [Music] um okay so we did tell you years ago that we did need a corporate headquarters here with high-paying jobs as opposed to that shopping center which which we knew would fail and did fail um and it's not just the fire department that would be uh have more stress on them with this 316 but the police would as well the 300 plus cars on Shay is a big deal I work in Scottdale Shay is a three three lane Highway either putt putting or they're zooming in and out of 80 and when there's an accident on Shay you're stuck for 2 hours you can't get back home and you're going to add more there and also um for when we moved here we were told it was like a dark sky there are no traffic lights there are no street signs anything like that but with the shopping center the street lights came in the big signs came in so so much for dark sky over there and I have more but my time's up thanks thank you Betsy love [Music] ly oh I'm sorry Joanne Joanne ly yep Joanne step up and then Betsy Lavoy on Duck thank you thank you for the opportunity to address you today I appreciate what we're talking about these are huge issues for me and pretty much everyone I know in my circle basically I don't understand the need for a development that is so contrary to the nature of Fountain Hills this is a small small town it's loved as a small town and we're introducing a huge huge Urban Development right in the middle of it I know we've talked about already um built issues parking spaces setbacks landscaping and building Heights I live in a multifam unit development it's been sold and resold so many times we don't even remember what to call it it's still being built as a luxury apartment community the truth is that it's practically impossible to main the luxury moner for 80 plus or more units over decades they deteriorate and it becomes very difficult to keep them up and as they deteriorate you attract a different kind of demographic I'm concerned that 315 units we're talking about not 315 people we're talking about 700 plus people at minimum one single Precinct is going to have an influx of 700 people they're going to double the nature of that whole Community very quickly now I also have experience with the havenly luxury single family home development which is now pillar um unfortunately it's the poster child of poor construction and project delays I think we are looking at the same thing with any other huge complex like that um the scale of Parkplace at Four Peaks I mean Four Peaks at The Village at Four Peaks and it really is will be Village uh the scale is disruptive in my view we'll have 700 new residents in one Precinct as I just mentioned but the lifestyle would be similar to city north and Paradise Valley reimagine which I think I saw a name up there a slide up there with that it's reminiscent of the 15minute city obviously the whole walkability concept is strong here and these aren't these aren't compatible with what I know Fountain Hills to be this a whole different mindset that comes with the 315 unit complex it's not small town off occupants of the proposed development are not going to fill service jobs let's just be clear about that that's not going to happen happen we've seen it it doesn't happen we have a different issue with job um occupancy right now and it doesn't have to do with the uh term we use um diversity in housing units I'm not even sure that really is a term we use diversity for a lot of things plant life and people and housing is just another labored use of the term diversity people need places to live their single family homes their Apartments and that's it I'd rather see this space used to encourage families to move in I embrace open space wholeheartedly and I respect the nature I I prefer to see a development that respects the nature of a small town not one that tries to morph the nature of a small town thank you m Joan C can I ask you s in in your opinion is is the is the location of the development are you amable to the location of the development catered to a more family like more open space type of demographic is that is that in there I think we're talking about right now with this development we're looking at a development that is supposedly catering to singles professional singles whereas Fountain Hills as a small to we we use the term um vitality and Revitalize and viability life comes from family life and that's a different nature when you talk about a whole complex a development like this one over 700 people I'm certain if even if they're not even full there's hundreds of people living there that have nothing to to do and I think the comment about the um playgrounds was an issue too we have enough dog parks in Fountain Hills we don't need more we need more families and things that attract family life um where this is located right now that's probably not the best place for a community of small families or growing families so my concern would be the type of development one and what the development intends to attract what would be my second concern thank you good evening chair Vice chair Commissioners and staff I'm Betsy Lavoy Fountain Hills resident since 1978 and CEO and president of the Fountain Hills Chamber of Commerce The Fountain Hills Chamber of Commerce has almost a thousand members and we have uh over 15 member board of directors as a as the largest nonprofit nonprofit Civic organization for business and Commerce in town of course we agree with Lyn Gilder sleeve and um Liz gers sleeve sorry and uh Larry Meyers that a larger Amazon corporate would be fabulous but where would they live do you know that right now today we have two single family homes under $500,000 for sale two where would they live when they mention that we need housing we desperately need housing so where would any Commerce that Amanda attracts which I know she's been working diligently to do where would they live this is what this solves I am here to share with you that yes the board of directors has endorsed this project and we are we do have a letter of support um for this project you might not know what that letter of support process looks like so I invite you to go to FH chamber.com and look at the letter of support process so you can get to know a little bit more about that our board directors are elected um by our business Community once a year and they represent that business Community kind of like a Town Council represents our community and they make decisions for that business Community the developers did come and follow the entire letter of support process and if I may I do have a copy for each one of you but I'm going to read it really quick on behalf of the board of directors I'm writing to express my wholehearted support for the revitalization and development project at the for Peaks Plaza I strongly encourage you to consider the many benefits that it would bring to our community one aspect of this project that stands out as a particularly thoughtful and considerate is its careful attention to the line of sight for the closest residential areas if I may May on a side note I personally live walking distance from Target so I personally as a longtime resident um can share with you that I'm in support as well it is evident that the project designers have gone to Great Lengths to ensure that the development does not restrict the views of the residents this shows a commendable level of respect for the existing community and the preservation of the natural beauty that surrounds us Mount mcdal is my favorite Mountain most of people call it Red Mountain or um Red Rock and it does not block that at all that was my first concern furthermore the Project's commitment to providing less traffic at full capacity residential than the current F full capacity commercial use is admirable this demonstrates the commitment to minimizing disruptions to the community and aligns with the vision of a more harmonious less congested town the decision to limit the development to only four stories tall is another praiseworthy element of this project in a time when many Redevelopment projects tend to reach Heights of six to 11 stories especially along major thorough fares like Shea Boulevard this project exhibits a commendable sense of scale that is in line with our Town's character and Aesthetics the support of the Fountain Hills Chamber of Commerce Board of Directors for this project is significant their endorsement emphasizes the positive impact it will have on our local economy and business Community the revitalization of the shopping plaza is likely to attract new businesses and provide additional residential opportunities for our Workforce which will undoubtedly contribute to the continued growth and success of our overall town in addition to the residential development the approval of appropriate signage is a critical aspect that should not be overlooked ensuring the visibility and recognition of the plaza is vital for its success and I encourage you to take take this into account dur during your decision-making process in conclusion I urge you to consider this project as an example of smart controlled residential growth that our town needs with the full support of the board directors of the Fel Chamber of Commerce I hope that you will see the immense value that this project holds for our community and Grant it the necessary approvals to move forward thank you for your time and consideration your support of this project will undoubtedly contribute to the continued growth and prosperity of our town I do also have a copy of the general plan to which many of the goals that are featured in The General plan are defined and I know we're briefly covered um I can share with you that in the general plan it states housing to meet the needs of current and future residents of Fountain Hills we actually are not doing that now this is your opportunity to allow that for future thank you next speaker is Matthew Corgan mine was actually uh a written request oh I beg your pardon but you're welcome to speak or well I just have a the concerns that are shared by the by the commission um and generally it's uh the same that have been stated many times here on the DS by members of the community and that is that it uh is a burden on the fire department police and also the infrastructure in terms of traffic as was pointed out it's really around 3 to 600 trips per day um in spite of what's revealed in the traffic study the reality is once the project is built up that site is really not ideal for this type of a project I've been in I've lived in different areas where this type of Redevelopment has become prominent and I'm speaking of California and Oregon and the results were taking a wonderful beautiful community and turning it into something over time entirely different uh those are my views on that I'm concerned also as the staff is and I'm assuming the commission about the number of parking spots that are available my concern is less about the roof line and more about the height of the 55t building so again I'm reiterating some of the concerns that have been stated already and uh I think my written comments probably bear that out thank you for your time and appreciate your uh no vote on this thank you thank you last two speakers will be Bob strausser and then Ed sza good evening Mr chairman and Commissioners um I've been a my wife and I have lived in Fountain Hills now I think we our first property was purchased in 2005 uh it was a condo and um we uh now live um directly behind the medical clinic um which uh which you had the same type of meetings for that um you know there's an expression I'm not sure who came up with it but do as I say but don't do as I do and it's often attached that saying is often attached to political parties both Democrat Republican and I suppose independent too um and Fountain Hills is no exception to that um res you the the infrastructure of Fountain Hills says that they want affordable housing and and um in Fountain Hills I I don't I don't see affordable housing especially when the median price of homes is 660 and there's only two homes that are below $500,000 we don't have affordable housing I won't there's a lot of points that have been covered already so I'm going to just skip over skip over those because they've all they've all been said um the uh the need for sales tax revenue is is really important and since we have so many storefronts right now all over the community that are vacant and there's no stores in them therefore they're not generating uh sales tax revenue um I don't necessarily think that putting an apartment building uh in that location is going to significantly increase our sales tax Reven Avenue I would think that most of the residents that live there are not like was said earlier they're not going to be service workers here in Fountain Hills they're going to be working in other towns and probably spending their money after after work on their way home uh and we won't realize the sales tax revenue um I know we have a member of the Chamber of Commerce that just spoke um I I think it's great that we have a chamber of commerce um without getting into a long explanation um I I was involved with Chambers of Commerce for 30 years uh in Illinois and um I really don't see the chamber bringing in the kind of businesses that we really need and if they're in favor of this Housing Development that's on them but I don't think that that really really provides um the kind of town that we want to have to continue to have so I don't think there's any that finan cial uh effort and I guess I'm run running out of time um there no no effort to bring in businesses that will change the financial impact of uh and create more revenue for Fountain Hills and I'll skip the other other two but I'll just end by saying remember so many times do as I say don't do as I do and 20 years ago you heard it 20 years later you're hearing it again so thank you I appreciate it thank you Mr stresser you're up Mr sza good evening chair good evening Vice chair good evening Commissioners and happy and Paula and staff so uh happy holidays to everybody I hope everything's uh going well with everyone so again we have a discussion that has been quickly brought on to the public uh without a due diligence of informing the public of exactly what's going on this is uh now they're going to our our applicants going to tell you how good this is for Fountain Hills well I've not heard that tonight and it seems that we need to take a little bit more time here and really dissect every inch of this and if anybody in this room truly believes that the rest of that parking lot is not going to look like what they're proposing you might be dead wrong so think about that so they can sit here and tell you what they want but economically they don't care about Fountain Hills they care about their project all developers too and that's okay that's their business but everybody in this room and everybody in this town and everybody up there and everybody on the Town Council needs to decide once and for all what you want Fountain Hills to be that's it same question was asked 33 years ago when my parents moved here and I asked the same question three years ago so what do we want to be do we want to be do we want a massive amount of apartments right at the entrance of our town that we are all going to see I don't care that they say about sight lines and or what they say about sight lines and I don't care that they think it's going to we can sit here and go over that all day long okay but the reality of it is it's going to be there it is going to be there and it's going to be an isore I don't care what they say okay so it does not blend with our surrounding community and if you think Target's going to stay here and if you think our chamber and our economic Services director ctor is going to save the town with this project let's do some real real numbers how much how much is it really going to add because the developmental fees aren't going to add a ton of money if that was the case then a Daryl Canyon that's been destroyed should have paid for every single aspect of stuff that we need in this town and I mind you to look at that project as you make a decision on this so that's another thing once you open the door for these people they are going to take it and they are going to open it further they don't care about ping Hills come on this is a big big outfit and granted they're here on a business trip we have no lawyers representing the town right now they have a whole slew of people here so purposely and they're doing it purposely at this time of the year in front of this amount of people they know what they're do doing so just take all that into consideration and let's extend this conversation please thank you Mr tiops Paula any more speaker cards no chairman thank you Paula uh let's go ahead and close the public comment session farad will'll call you back up um I'm just going to jump into a couple of mine U I'm curious on the parking C if if there's no if there's control of the adjacent Parcels why why are we trying to overpark this parcel and not just extend the extend the limits of the Pud to get it in ratio it it seems to me that that could be a a calculation that extrapolates on us over time if we were to to to push this forward tonight was was that discussed I guess as my ultimate question um Mr chairman that that wasn't discussed at any great length but uh my thought would be that uh you know much of the parking provided is for the residents and it is secured within the um the wrapped uh parking structure um so that accounts for most of the parking exclusively for the uh residents M so I I guess my concern is that if I understand the access points to the to the parcel Beyond vehicular it seems to reason that the Overflow is probably going to land itself on Technology Drive and not make its way into the target parcel um I that's what we'll call it here tonight um so I I have a reservation there um and then I think Amanda's taken off but what do we do in the form of an economic impact analysis when this type of reone comes up what what does that office do oh she is still here um what does that office do and you what does that what does that Cal look like as we as we weigh the opportunity cost I thought you walked out I am still not running okay so um chairperson gray this is a great question and we're in the process of of working on we did reach out to the greater Phoenix Economic Council that is gek um I asked them I was pretty sure I knew the answer but asked them if they did an economic impact on a mixed juice Unfortunately they do not so we need to work with the applicant and then the town just for the future um look at someone to help us with that modeling and to be consistent with the modeling so there has not been a full-blown economic impact analysis you're welcome commissioner Wattson along the lines of that economic impact I think I'm going to reiterate one once again for Amanda's sake that we incorporate the potential disposable income the type of renters that are anticipated the middle higher income people that are going to be going be necessary in order to to qualify for the for the rentals for the rates um and what does it look like my concern is and for Farhad is I just lost my thought train of thought completely thank you um it'll come back just give me a second I hate when this happens the economic component was a big one though um dark sky I live a couple of streets over from Travino and there's this glow that exists and it's coming out of that Target facility today it would seem to me that this particular development would exacerbate that so is there a way to control it to contain it so it doesn't isn't a beacon because it lights up the whole Sky even over three four straights Mr chairman uh commissioner Watts uh the town um our staff is only equipped to enforce the outdoor lighting ordinance um which requires certain color temperature no greater than 3,000 Kelvin shielding based on the amount of lumens um the only uh you know the the only thing that doesn't address I guess is lighting that comes from within the units and I'm not sure if that um you know that is something that can be uh addressed I don't think it's so much what comes from in the units as much as the the reflection because I understand the the three 3,000 Kelvin and uh the lumens and we talked about foot candles at nauseum but the reflection off of the asphalt itself creates this aura or Globe I don't I don't know what you call it but it's pretty amazing to see even three four streets over so there's got to be a way to mitigate some of that is what I would hope for so I I would appreciate looking deeper into that as well Mr chair commissioner are you referring to just the the glare regardless of a time of day with from the surface okay yeah thanks yeah primarily in the evening hours where you get the most reflection off of it I would say that you don't get much in the in the way of daytime reflection but some and and again some of the requirements we've got for root rooftop Coatings are not white they're Tan in nature to mitigate some of that reflection as well um farad you guys got an update from uh Chief a [Music] on yes uh uh Mr chairman uh John's been in communication with Chief OD um he did confirm that the ladders extend out to feet um and I believe uh there was one other statement in regards to the uh fire suppression and the sprinkler system and they are required to be equipped with sure that apparatus um I wanted to also ask you I noticed the um this just for my own education I guess but I noticed that the traffic impact study and Grant it was it was just the kind of the executive summary but in that summary it referenced all Scottdale standards is that because we don't have standards to to Benchmark against or why why would the Scotsdale standards have been utilized Mr chairman I'm not sure if I can answer that I just wonder if that is is there some strategic value to using Scott because I I think uh someone had mentioned trip counts being low and I I think it's probably not impactful one way or another but I also thought the trip counts um for early morning were were also low so I just I don't know if that's rooted in that Scottsdale standard versus The Fountain Hills uh modeling or not um commissioner depa yeah uh chairman gray I um sorry to take a a a quick step back um but I have one more box to check on my uh list of reservations and I think Miss uh Betsy Lavoy they be the lady that's representing the board of directors may be able to answer that if uh if she's still there no sir she is not okay okay yeah I am I am interested in uh learning about um I know about eight years ago there were a lot of reservations about Park Place and um I want to know uh the kind of impact now that Park Place has had on on the community on the um Fountain Hills as a whole or or the Avenue um but that's something that I suppose I could leave open and and uh look into later thank you commissioner's any other question for far farad or the applicant all in good DST good okay you guys good all right uh we will close the public Hearing in relation to agenda item five and final discussion amongst the commission and or a motion please oh sure so I'll just I just have a few comments um and then I can make a motion if everyone agrees um I believe here for 8 years since 2016 and from day one looking you know shopping and going to that Target parking lot I'm thinking we got to do something here we have to revitalize this area um so I was excited to hear when the developers came in and had a proposal for us um and thank you all for coming to speak and sharing your uh thoughts with us we really do appreciate that so I think about the compatibility with the surrounding area you know we've had quite a few of these projects over the past five years that I've been here and we've approved some we have not approved others you know and sometimes we have um well very often we have to deal with who's living around the area how it impacts their views so I think one thing that's unique to this project is the compatibility with the surrounding area this is on a main thoroughfare uh it's currently mainly a commercial and industrial area so I think that's something uh a plus that we have with this proposal you know I look at traffic and infrastructure and this does support there's direct access um right into this development and that's usually a struggle that we have to deal with but not in this case um parking space adequacy is usually something we talk about as well um and I this is a very unique design with the the wraparound parking uh it's excellent design I think as we heard today it was going to be a better experience for the people that live there there so I'm kind of excited about that um also look at like economic impact on local businesses and I think we heard from Economic Development today and from a few other folks that the businesses are in support of this they as far as I know you know they're probably really struggling right now and they need to revitalize that area to help them stay in business the last thing we want to do is lose Target or lose one of the other businesses there uh public services and amenities we know we can handle this we've got to make some some changes with the uh the water but we can handle it um compliance with zoning and the general plan is also important so this is promoting mixed use and that's in our general plan uh that would be where it's residential and Commercial all within the same area and that promotes walkability so we have less cars driving more people can walk to the commercial businesses um and then the long-term vision is the last thing I would look at so this revitalizes the sheay corridor um it's going to bring in more families like we heard earlier the families are really what we need to bring into town here because they're going to support our other businesses and they're going to help to um increase the diversity of the community also this area has been underutilized and as we heard today also commercial has changed so we can try to fix this um with other commercial properties but that's really changed and not everybody is shopping the way that they used to so we got to kind of think of things in a New Direction here so uh for all of those reasons I really hope that you all will consider that as well um I would like to make a motion that we approve this project um and can move forward with hold your motion I'll give you first rights to it U but I want to hear from other Commissioners um as we as we head into that motion commissioner kic I I am fully on board that there is a housing shortage and that Fountain Hill Fountain Hills needs more housing um I'm I fully understand I've been in the real estate business for 40 years and I understand with a tough shopping center um you don't have a lot of options and and Redevelopment I I wonder what's taken so long um I think the architecture is good but what I'm really struggling with Fountain Hills is primarily a bedroom community the ordinances are on our books for a reason um and while we can all say rules are made to be broken I just am wrestling with the fact that this that R5 zoning calls for 220 units and we're looking at 316 proposed um that's I just think it's too much and I am wrestling with the fact that our ordinance calls for 635 parking spaces and only whatever it is 561 are being proposed we're too short we're not Scottdale we're not Phoenix you can't get an Uber in or out of here after a certain time of night people are going to be driving in and out and I'm just I I struggle to support the project this much on that little space and I don't think we need 300 units is a huge impact as one of the speakers said I mean you bring 700 people and put them onto 6 acres is that really what we want Fountain Hills to be so I'm wrestling with it and I'm a builder I like to see things get built but I think it's a lot commissioner Watson thank you good chair um I think commissioner Corey spoke very eloquently but I think I can challenge each and every one of those scenarios every one of them has a deficiency that I think that we ought to afford the opportunity to the town staff Economic Development and and more input from the public to explore and come up with answers I don't think we should jump to conclusions tonight and I don't think we should move forward approving it because I think it takes more debate uh amongst the Commissioners amongst the public I think we need more input U each of the issues that Commissioners have raised are viable but they also have a counter to them and I think those are the issues that need to be explored rather than rehashing each and every one of them I think we got to for the town the opportunity uh to explore them and come back with answers thank you commissioner dster thank you so just a few of my thoughts um I am a realtor and we do absolutely need more housing here without a doubt we need more rentals we need more um homes our average price is very high and it's a it's a challenge um we also need to um reduce the amount of commercial space we have um and this is a great opportunity um we need we don't want to lose Target at all um that would be a detriment to our town so I do think we need to revitalize the Four Peaks Plaza um I I love multi-use multi-property um sites I think that it makes sense um I look at the walkability and such and um I am a fan of that um I'm concerned with two more Parkplace buildings approved um that's going to bring in um several uh Apartments I have some dark sky concerns and we all know it doesn't mean no light it mean shielded light but there's still kind of a glow that comes from um uh large um properties and such um but I my biggest concern and struggle is with the density um I think it's a very large project and um that's that's my big struggle thank you commissioner depa did you have any thoughts you wanted to share with the commission um yes I'm referencing my notes here um chairman and um about eight years ago as I was saying earlier um there were a lot of um reservations about Parkplace today you go to Parkplace on an evening and um you will see a vibrant area with residents enjoying um okas sui and all that is going on around there and I wanted to hear from the uh from the chamber to see uh if uh they had some data on on on the impact um I also have my notes about um uh the fire chief's response which was good I was glad to hear from that it was good and encouraging to hear from The Young speaker um I I'm also um I've checked the boxes about the the the um the development itself and all my questions have been answered about that I'm not concerned that any of the neighbors will have uh uh their views restricted uh just looking at the elevation and um and um and and that the mechanical system is uh is not going to be something that will um will be an ey Source since they have parit walls and and all that so um I'm with Corey on this um I I am I am ready to move forward with this uh that Target area is dead right now and we could certainly Fountain Hills could certainly use um the revitalization of that area thank you commissioner depa um and I'll just give give kind of my summary of of notes Here I I kind of I kind of split the line U between commissioner Corey's disposition uh on this and and I also have a lot of the same reservations that um that uh the other Commissioners have have raised so um ultimately this is all going to lead to I'm I'm actually in favor of a of a short continuance to uh to try and develop this thing a little bit further but my thoughts in a nutshell are that as you look at this render you know we keep talking about a a mixed use environment and to me mixed use is is stacking residential on top of commercial and there's some integration and there's some direct utilization this this as it's laid out um is residential in isolation from the adjacent commercial and there happens to be a locked gate off of the residential unit that will let you into the parking lot that could ultimately get you to Target but there's no Pathways there's no interconnectivity there's no you know there's no master plan component of this that interlocks those two different entities or or components of a mixed use together so to me this is purely high density residential and isolation and just happens to be adjacent to I think that if we're really going to talk about this as mixed use and we're going to throw all those cards on the table we need to further develop um that in concept um I also really really think we've got to find a way uh within staff you know reaching out to Amanda and her um and her her I was going to say team to her um to really um is there a team you have one right all right uh reaching out to Amanda to to really understand the economic impact analysis of this chess move um I really like the velopment I like the architecture of it I like the um I I like the elevations of it we get caught up in 55 ft of of height but the reality is is those are architectural features that get you to 55 ft that's not a box it's 55 ft tall and I do think you know when we consider the setbacks off of sheay and the um you know the the difference the horizontal difference between the property line um and the Shay curb line I think that the height um self mitigates in this particular location so I do agree that there's a lot of really good um civil and Architectural features of this but I can't get myself off of the density uh calculation one I I agree I think that's I just think it's too dense um I don't understand the parking deficit and and the logic there um as commissioner kovic has already gone down that path um and um I had one more that I wanted to go to it's contagious it's one yeah it is contagious isn't it um well I think that pretty well that pretty well encapsulates it I I had five likes in my like category and I had nine dislikes as it sits today um that's not to say I'm not in favor of this long term because I think I probably am if we can mitigate and find some middle ground on some of this stuff but today I would be in favor of a continuance um as uh as my personal preference I I guess my last note is is has has kind of also been picked up by others but I do think that you know you can find whatever you want to find in our general plan you can find whatever you want to find in our economic um strategy study um I I think that if this were to go forward as it is I think it's a a pretty significant nail um in Fountain Hills ever achieving um you know growth on the back of of of an anchor um opportunity I think that we forever have committed ourselves to a bedroom community because you only get this opportunity to revitalize reg gentrify redevelop you know once every three or four generations here um and so I I really think we've got to think that through a little bit more and I think there's a lot of Minds that have to get to get together on that so those are my thoughts do you have another yeah just a parting you you've given commissioner Corey the first right of refusal on making a motion so is this going to be an up and down vote on a motion to approve or are you going to move forward I guess it's a a question for you commissioner Cory or an up and down vote on for contingency or continuance it it's your it's your your call you have first rights to the motion okay well I mean my first vote would be just to make a recommendation on approving this make that recommendation to councel uh but I would support a continuance if we felt that there was a need for more discussion on this I think if it goes to an up and down vote on support I okay I don't think it's going to be good so I think I'd be a supporter of continuing okay that's fair free will you can make whatever whatever motion you you desire did we have something from the I Mr chair couple of things I actually was expecting an opportunity to to have a rebuttal but if that's not your process here I it it may be worth asking the applicant if uh continuance and I appreciate the comments that were made I think all of them were made with good faith and the idea of trying to create something that's a benefit to the town um at the same time we've covered a lot of ground this evening and I wasn't sure if you were curious as to the applicant's response to any of the comments that were made from the public or any of the lingering questions but most importantly I I think the continuance is probably a question that should be asked of the applicant because I I wouldn't want to put the Planning Commission in a situation where you believed there was going there were going to be changes significant changes to be made and if they're not made that you were disappointed with the applicant um so I just wanted to put that out there as well and typically if if continuance is a motion we will engage both yourself and staff to to determine what the best path is there and get your feedback okay so I think the first motion is I'm not sure it's either going to be for a motion to continue or it's going to be a motion to recommend approval well I really just want to recommend approval so I will do that um because I think that you know we've we've hashed this out quite a bit and um I really want to see us try to make this work so I will uh make a recommendation to approve the rezone from the C 2 PUD zoning district with the planned unit development overlay and the ind1 to Village at Four Peaks pad to allow for the development consisting of 316 unit four-story residential apartment subject to the following conditions that staff put in the uh agenda Commissioners is there a second to commissioner Corey's motion yes I will second that motion okay um and commissioner Corey your reservation are are limited to staff's recommendations correct yes okay uh Commissioners a motion has been made to recommend approval of the application to agenda item number five uh as stated and inclusive of the staff recommendations that motion has been seconded by commissioner depa um commissioner opportunity for any proposed amendments to that motion if not we will go go to a roll call vote did you have an amendment no uh Paula roll call please commissioner dster nay commissioner kovasovic nay chairman gray nay Vice chair Watts nay 42 forgot to pass dep seconded the motion so okay he seconded the motion thank you yeah okay um Commissioners an alternate motion I we just up and down so you have a you now have a recommendation basically for denial to councel so that's what we go forward right okay so do we even need to go to six so far do we move on to agenda item six or was it contingent on agenda item five I believe we can move forward yeah we can move forward okay we take five minutes farad commission is asking for a five minute recess so we'll we'll uh take a recess we we will reconvene at 9:15 right let's go ahead and resume farad move on to agenda item six public hearing consideration and possible action to rezone the adjacent 22.5 Acres uh at Shay and swl Boulevard um I won't read the rest of it okay let's move into the presentation Mr chairman uh members of the commission so uh this pad request the underlying zoning uh District currently is the same as the one property adjacent to it in the previous case it's a C2 cupd and an i1 planned residential uh applicant is requesting a uh planned unit uh I'm sorry there's a obvious typo planned area development um for this as well to create a uniform zoning throughout um the location is as I said the the other 3/4s of the Four Peaks Plaza it's about 22.5 acers um I mentioned the reone request the Four Peaks Plaza pad um now the sole intent of this pad is not only to create a uniform zoning throughout the center because currently it is Dual Zone like the previous uh uh subject property but um it is to uh address the signage allowances um and the purpose of this uh is to of this particular p is to replace an existing 10 foot high 14 foot wide uh Monument sign with a 20 foot high and uh a little over 21 and2 ft wide Monument sign at the southeast corn of Shea Boulevard and uh center lane which is the signal intersection here at the Target Center um uh here at um the uh North rather I'm sorry the southeast corner um and it's also to add a new sign uh that is 12 uh proposed to be 12 feet high and 14 ft wide um at the driveway midway between the center lane intersection and the Saro Boulevard intersection so I do need need to make a point of clarification on the staff report I did uh I I describ The Proposal as the removal and replacement of two signs um that is actually uh erroneous is actually the removal and replacement of one sign that being the the main Monument sign at the signal intersection and it would be the addition of a monument sign at the driveway about 530 uht uh east of the signal intersection now the applicant is allowed by right two Monument signs per 150 feet of Li of uh of linear feet um what the applicant is requesting with this pad request are is deviations from the sign height and the sign area and I'll explain that a little bit more uh later on um and so it's important to note that with approval of this pad request all other current standards for the uh C2 cupd uh shall still apply so uh the the sign that is proposed for removal and replacement is the existing 10t High sign and 14 ft wide with a 20ft high sign uh and a little over 21 ft across uh that's the monument sign as I mentioned at the south east corner of center lane and sha Boulevard what the applicant again as you as you can see here is proposing is uh as I mentioned 20ft sign but it's also a um sign area of about 206 uh square feet um it's worth noting at this point that the applicant has revised their design uh proposal their uh sign elevation to reflect some of the comments that were received uh at last week's meetings and so what the applicant has done is um mute uh proposing to mute the colors that were originally proposed to a white for the minor tenants um the Target logo um will be uh applied as originally proposed the second sign uh that the applicant is proposing is uh as I mentioned the the driveway that's about 530 ft east of the center lane intersection um that will be at the southwest corner this is actually looking at the eastbound Lanes but it's looking West and the sign will be um located approximately here in this area the applicant has repaired some more sophisticated uh simulations um that will show pretty good idea of the line of sight in this case the applicant is proposing a 12T High sign and uh approximately 14 ft across with a sign area of 80 uh square feet deviations from the sign code uh first with S A so uh with regards to Monument signs the base zoning standard for Monument signs is a height limitation of 12 feet the applicant applicant is proposing 20 ft in height uh base zoning standards require uh no more than 50 square feet of sign area applicant is proposing uh 210 square F feet I sorry earlier I mentioned 206 but uh pad explicitly mentions uh 210 square ft with regards to the new sign sign um and the deviations proposed there uh is uh only in regards to the sign area uh they're proposing uh a sign area of 80 Square F feet um in staff's view um we recommend approval uh of the uh sign uh uh elevations as promised through this pad request um the approval would address some challenges due to visibility and existing topography um much of the details of that topography were discussed before um especially with uh uh Mr Morris's uh um one exhibit showing the uh difference in grade between uh the the parking lot and Shea Boulevard um and also provides a uniform zoning throughout the for Peaks Plaza area applicant has provided uh stipulations for approval much In The Same Spirit as the previous stipulations for the previous case we will wait to see more detailed drawings if this does get approved um uh applicant does need to apply for a for an encroachment permit because at least a portion of uh one of the signs extends into the right away um and uh our engineering department who mainly looks at any kind of uh development within the rights away is amable to that so um uh should should this uh PID be approved um we will work out those details with uh various departments and uh this last stipulation is uh this um similar to the previous case um the final design will also uh look at the 15 foot uh 15inch sewer line that's uh beneath uh I should say the 15inch sewer line easen that's beneath one of the signs uh at this point I'll open up to discussion and questions farad exclusion on on any electronic messaging is that is that inherent to to the language um Mr chairman I I would say yes um but this being also a pad they are um held to the standards that they're proposing which does not include electronic message boards and and then also I don't recall what what our our new ordinance stipulates but dimming criteria is does the underlying is there an underlying requirement to dim an hour I think it's an hour before dusk or an hour after dusk would that I'm not sure with regards to this type of Monument signage I know it's on the electronic but with a sign of this size that that big bulls out there does that apply would that apply there seems reasonable that that a sign of that size and proportion should be muted Beyond a certain hour right okay uh commissioner Cory well I would just say that I I agree that we if it's going to be that big we want to make sure that when it gets darker that they somehow automatically would just kind of darken a little bit so you can still see it but we don't want to be emitting too much light from those signs yeah and I know that was a concern from some of the residents too um and then I just had one other didn't it used to be that we measured the signage area from the top of the plinth where this is measured from grade it it appears right I just want to make sure we're not opening ourselves up to a 30 foot sign and this appears to be off grade but I I thought the the language in the underlying ordinance stipulates off the off the plint and to me if I was looking for a way around I would just extend that brick facade a little further and give myself a Podium to stand off and then potentially go taller just want to make sure there's no loophole there um you other comment I have is I I appreciate the muting of the secondary signage I have to look at look at the uh how we account for the sign area a little bit more closely but I see sure commissioner wats I'm trying to figure out how we got oh that again how we got to go to 20 feet I don't think our can help me understand how you're recommending or the staff is recommended to go to 20 ft and I think in total that 210 square fet or better is the sign because of the target Bullseye because of all the tenants are going to be listed so I I help me understand how we got there and why you're approve why you're recommending it uh Mr chairman um commissioner Watts really it's mostly because of the the visibility of the current sign and with the difference in grade um uh and as I mentioned the applicant has provided some a better simulations of the current conditions but really it's in terms of uh visibility and uh the point a good point to be made is that the current zoning ordinance with with regards to sign doesn't really address differences in topography where um signs are uh minimally visible from uh uh the most I guess uh uh larger I guess Windows if you will so is this going to alleviate the the problems with Target and its volume or its revenue and the other businesses there that that's certainly the the intent but whether it a you know it in actuality will will result in the the needed boost I guess we would only need a crystal ball to maybe I should wait to see the presentation thank you let's let's go ahead and do the applicants presentation do you want the I got the Powerpoint or you want the um the Adobe version uh the power point okay thanks uh Mr chair and planning Commissioners thank you for your time and consideration uh and I know you've done both I'm going to go very brief through this because to some degree you know it it is what it is we are here with a shopping center that has just to remind you the worst performing Target and they own their building we would love to keep them we'd love to keep them selfishly because we own the remainder of the shopping center but you should want to keep them as well I guess is the point if I didn't make that clear enough in the last presentation and you for fortunately have a planning directive you have a general plan you have economic studies uh it's disappointing because as I said our work over the last few years is really to hold on to a shopping center that is in significant trouble and it that doesn't take an economist if you have a car dri by it's vacant we're not keeping it vacant we've actually moved tenants to try and Revitalize it it's looking less and less likely that that will happen but to the extent that we could bring Target along with this concept of revitalization and get them excited about it they very much recognize that they have terrible signage and terrible visibility two things that a retailer will tell you are the death now for a retail shopping center so with that in mind we've designed new signage and with staff's help uh we've actually looked at where it would be appropriate to put those signs in uh for the benefit of the commission you know these are again standards that are either from other jurisdictions um where we've developed actually in all instances that nothing we're proposing here is unique to Fountain Hills in terms of its size or shape it's all within the guidelines of other jurisdictions where we both own properties or where Target operates so you're very familiar with the center I won't bore you with that aspect um but I'll remind you and this will give you a sense you see the key at the bottom uh as you approach the shopping center virtually the entire shopping center isn't visible until you get closer to the signalized intersection um a as you do you can see glimpses of that building um it's not surprising given that 75 foot Channel and the drop and elevation that not only are a lot of the facades invisible unless you know what tenant is there you cannot at any speed perhaps otherwise being a pedestrian guess what's inside this Center so in recognizing that we have tried to remedy that with signage that will make the rest of the shopping center more appealing to a tenant so it farhart has already gone over where those locations are the existing and the proposed location uh we did receive some feedback about the colors uh so we have limited the colors and we will let the tenants know their ability to use trademarks uh will be more limited in terms of this signage to try and ultimately this was to blend in with the proposed uh multif family but obviously it has some utility by itself and then in terms of the location bringing them closer out to the arterial so that they can be seen from a vehicle this gives you a sense of the existing Monument sign and how visible that is uh versus what is proposed again the size of the uh signage is larger and it is brought closer to the intersection uh and also a little bit further in I think I've already covered these uh but the idea is to reduce vehicular conflicts as well these one of the things that we're finding is that the difficulty in reading the tenant signs within the shopping center from the roadway is such that Travelers are actually slowing down to try and decipher what is within the shopping center itself um I believe I have uh I there was a question earlier and I wanted to address it we are not doing facelit panel signs um and these are not internally illuminated letters instead for the sake of the dark size we are proposing these as Halo illuminated which is the example on the upper left uh so that you can see that's both easily dimmed and it's also less of an impact on the night sky any questions thank you commissioner Cory just just one if you can go back to the signs themselves so I understand that you can't see what buildings are back there because there's trees in the way and this is a solution so that people can see in uh don't cut the trees down we like the trees in there cuz it makes it look nice um but I understand that we need to be able to show them what's in there um but I have a concern with the sign that is the 20ft high sign um it's that's a lot larger than we typically have there that we've had there in the past did you play around with any other designs rather than going up was there a way to go more sideways and put maybe three and three or something uh Mr chair commissioner we did look at uh actually a variety of different options for this bear in mind we knew the tenant panels needed we needed to stack tenant panels but we also needed Target's permission and Target was very concerned about their visibility they actually don't have an example of a site that has less of a window of visibility along an arteria so the original proposals were larger than that they were a little they were slightly taller and uh significantly less um architecturally detailed it was more the focus was on the target panel and less on the individual tenants uh but we dropped it down to 20 ft before we submitted and certainly there are other options available uh this is something that works given those sight lines and given those constraints but I don't know if the Planning Commission had a different idea I mean I don't know maybe it would work it just seems a little high to me um and one more question while I have the floor here I'm sorry to also should have pointed out you don't have another shopping center uh with a this type of vacancy um but be in terms of the overall size of shop space available especially if the the 6.7 Acres remains in shop space and the pads there it is I believe your largest commercial center yes which is if we're looking to depart it's un narial and it's your largest shopping center MH all right thanks for clarifing in and lastly you said that the illumination of the stores that are not Target would have that Halo illumination I think that looks a lot better than the illuminated kind of the plastic with the lighting behind it and Mr chair commissioner I should have made it clear that's intended for all of those even the target design would be okay that was going to be my question okay so it won't be illuminated red it will be lit up behind the red okay okay thank you couldn't resist couldn't resist looking at the photos it looks like there's a line of sight issue as you come down Shay going what eastbound on Shay and the obstruction is the underbrush more because I agree we don't really want to remove the trees but there's an awful lot of underbrush because that line of sight to the signs are lower than the tree itself what has been done to mitigate some of that line of sight issue as far as the underbrush goes and Landscaping it's not their property Mr chair whose property is it yeah Mr chair uh Mr Vice chair a couple of thoughts there one some of it is the actual right of way uh outside of our property line so some of the vegetation is within the right of way and and not within our property line secondly I don't believe it's the underbrush that's blocking the tenant panels it's actually the branches from the trees largely that are blocking the the sign itself so we would have to take out trees to make that work um and make it more visible and certainly that's one approach but perhaps I did a poor job in the last presentation explaining the gravity of the situation with the shopping center this is there aren't a lot of options left and there I don't believe is a lot of time left with the situation we're in Target is where they are and they're looking for Solutions and we were trying this would have been a 60 to 70 million investment to get them there and this was despite what we heard from the audience very much about keeping a thriving shopping center because that is the business that we're in so I would love to think that signs and of themselves will work they'll certainly help but this is a significant situation that the shopping center is in so just if you would bear that in mind when you're deciding on this that would be helpful have you had any conversations with with a town staff about doing something with the Landscaping to improve the sight line I think we've had several conversations over the course of now two years they've owned it for 10 so they have not been short of communication with the town with the chamber with you'll notice that there's some nonprofits we've talked to I mean this is uh it's what they do day in and day out I think my problem with it is the size again and we just spent almost a year revising our sign ordinance and we it was painful to go through that so frankly I'm not inclined to support anything that goes outside the current signed ordinance fair enough thank you thank you thank you Jason uh Paul let go to speaker cards we have four speaker cards the first speaker is Larry Meyers and then Jim Spence after Jim Spence Pamela Curtis and then Ed sza chair Commissioners so I appreciate the gravity of the uh Target shopping center that we predicted would failed 20 years ago I also appreciate the aggravation over the sign ordinance that went on and on and on some people don't even like the one we have now and to par commissioner kovacevic once again Fountain Hills writes a rule and then staff waves their arm and the rule disappears so 50 square foot sign becomes a 250 square foot sign or 200 foot sign I can appreciate Target I know for a fact they are the worst performing Target in the history of the universe and we predicted that and as far as driving down sha Boulevard we also predicted 20 years ago when they told us that oh my God everybody that's driving home from Scottdale on their way to Mesa will shop at Target when we said are you kidding me they're not stopping here they're going home they'll be a Target somewhere where they are in Mesa and here we are 20 years later once again there's your crystal ball your crystal ball is looking in the rearview mirror so I can get on board with some especially the way they're going to do their lighting uh it's not going to be a blaring red bullseye I can get on board with some new signs and I think you've even talked about Monument signs and how they should be applied out on Shea Boulevard uh while we were discussing the sign ordinance but I don't think five times the size that we have now conforms to the town of Fountain Hills and quite frankly if we have to look like somewhere else um then I don't know why we came here because if I want to look at that sign at 200 square feet I can go look at it in Scottdale so I would appreciate you modifying your giving them give them something but try to adhere to the rules that we've written down because I don't know why we go through the aggravation of making rules and then making exceptions for any anyone for any circumstance so I appreciate your thoughtfulness on this and um try to come to some conclusion that doesn't include Breaking All the Rules you just made thank you well again thank you uh for hosting and for hearing our problems hearing our issues with what's being proposed here um specifically on the signage I understand how Target would want to put its brand name out there but I don't think by putting a 20 foot sign out there is going to be the answer um I I like the option of removing the the ground cover that may be obscuring view um I don't even have a problem removing a tree or a tree limb or two um it in in the in the overall scheme of things I don't think that would be an issue with anyone in in addition I wouldn't have a problem with the main sign uh being moved further out uh toward Shay if that's an option um but I don't think we need to go to 20 ft to make it visible I know that Target has to be profitable in order to stay in business I don't think increasing the size of the signage is going to increase the the customer flow it it's not going to draw more people in everybody knows the target is there that lives here so you're talking about transient people coming from Scottdale or Phoenix going up to the lakes or going up to the mountains well campers fishermen everybody they know it's there but improved visibility I don't have a problem with I really like the idea of the backlighting that's that's a great idea um this 20 foot sign if you could bring up the um the slide uh that shows where where that would be at on the street believe it or not that sign is reflecting directly into my man cave okay I have to keep my shutters down so this would only make it it would aggravate the situation I don't know that it would make it worse but it would aggravate it and as far as dimming is concerned it would be really nice if the sign could be 50% if not completely turned on off let's say 10:00 none of the stores are open nobody's going to pull in why advertise at that point and traffic is minimal so I would say I don't have any issue with the proposal for B the signage B um a I do have a problem I'd like to stick with what what the uh uh current regulations say and what the codes are and again take a look at what options are can we move it can we do some landscape modification thank you so we went through this back when uh building the shopping center and I think we should stick to the ordinance that is in place for the current signage I don't think we need bigger and I don't think we need brighter uh you can't miss Target with its bright red sign you can't miss the new Dollar Tree with its bright green sign and bells with its bright green signs can't miss them also people are using their phones and Google Maps in their cars and can find anything you can say Google drive me to the nearest place where I can buy socks and it'll take you to Target you can say Google drive me to the nearest restaurant and it'll take you to whatever it'll tell you where anything thing is you don't even need the sign it doesn't keep it certainly doesn't keep the shoplift the shoplifters from finding them because when you read the weekly police reports there's at least three to four shoplifting reports in there at the 600 16,000 block of Shay regularly um I also want to say the developer was saying how refu is really important to them however if you do go over and walk the shopping center the trash receptacles are constantly overflowing they're not taking care of that trash Refuge um also with the traffic for shopping it varies throughout the day but with residents in apartment complex they're usually going to and from work around the same time so that's putting the cars on the road at the same times they mentioned bringing in more Commerce well where would the Commerce go if you tear down half of the existing shopping center um that also goes for revitalization there pictures with the lines of sites the first one was from a house that is more across from Walgreens not across from four Peak shopping center the second line of sight is on Monteray and it happens to be right behind my house which would be right there in front of the the apartments we built an addition on our house when the shopping center went up so we wouldn't have to see that but that only affects our ground floor the other things will shine right into our bedrooms on the second and third floors will the levels so um last thing I want to state is that you said you wanted to have a mi minimal visual impact well that would only be if you left the heighted is as it is and the signage as it is thank you good evening again I'm sorry sorry excuse me commissioner Paula chairman Vice chair and staff uh I've got a couple big things here are we voting before I go any further are you vot are you voting on whether or not I mean on the 22 Acres also or just the sign I'm confused so are we doing both because if we're trying to sneak in the 22 acres and the whole parcel I'm going to talk on that but or we vote because those are two separate things right on on six it it it's an amendment to the existing PUD okay so modification for signage okay but it's not it has nothing but you're still resoning 22 Acres correct didn't they say to have them all congruent on the acreage as far as the help me with my confusion yeah Mr chairman if I may clarify uh so the the rezoning to the pad will address the signage allowance exclusively um the pad document explicitly states that the underlying uh zoning the C2 with the cupd overlay will uh remain and will be incorporated into this pad so really it's just creating a uniform zoning District throughout um because as I mentioned earlier it is dual zoned so indd narrow strip Albia to the North and then uh pad for the vast majority of the property or rather C C2 cupd for the vast majority and so this will create a uniform zoning fair enough okay so is this not valid so we're trying to my question is we are Zing the entire property correct we are changing the zoning the entire property on this particular even after you said that that's what it sounds like yes okay existing propos I'm sorry I have the applicants presentation before me let me see here the existing and proposed zoning map you mention from the my most recent presentation ex exib oh yeah I'm sorry I'm I I think the underlying question is is if five were approved by the council would the 6.7 Acres carve out yes yes that's a separate pad Villages at Fort Peaks pad we're calling this the fort Peaks Plaza P so Mr sza is technically correct we probably should flip-flop the agenda items address the underlying modification to the Pud and then carve out the 6.7 Acres thereafter I think it's semantics at at this point but this application has to all of yeah 22 well is it 22 Acres or are there 29.2 Acres between the two okay so this is not a part that's not your fault I I read it as two independent acreage counts okay I see it on the screens up there I don't see it on my own computer screen but uh but yeah so this is the area that is the subject of the pad right here and and that includes the Target that yellow line is 22.5 Acres correct that is the net area of the Ed what Ed what's your what's your reservation well it seemed the way it read that you would also be voting on to change the zoning on those 22 Acres but that but that's what it is that's what it is doing yes so but it doesn't say from to what like the other one does vote on that it's just adjc I think everything's alluding everything's alluding to the Target Center even the developers are telling you uh that it's going to go it's done so this again seems to me the way ID read it originally to explain what I was talking about was that this just opens up the door again to be able to do whatever they want within that piece of property which is going to be all apartments because they're even saying Targets on its way out they're even saying it so all this waste of putting the signs in so let's go back to the signage thing so then trying to magically help Target who owns that particular piece of the building right so is kind of irrelevant so what are we wasting time on it for why are they wasting time on it just to prove that they might be able to keep an anchor store so boy it all sounds just like it's going to be one major development so um the rest of what I had to say was basically uh I just don't understand why staff is recommending for approval again based upon everything that we've heard so this happens time and time again and uh so what do we want Fountain Hills to be we want that area to be a signage Corridor we have a problem with the MCO sign right now and we've got a distinct problem and I told the council that and it is a safety hazard and it's an eyesore and this will be same so um and since Target you know is about I I I just seem like uh this is just a formality what a waste to put these things up and try to fit something in that just is not going to work so um again please take into consideration what we want Fountain Hills to be and what it looks like this this there is no other signage within town that is this size so and I don't think it's going to increase business show some for real I mean the visual aspects of it I pass there four or five times a day and certainly I never ever can't see what's in that particular area as far as uh any of the groupings or anything else so anyway please take all that in consideration thank you Paula any more speaker cards no chair thank you Paula any written comments yes there were four written comments against agenda item number six thank you okay we close the I'm sorry please come up to the podium thank you thank you I apologize I misunderstood thank you like a bad penny I'm back um I a couple things I I want to say in the three minutes um it strikes me as rather unusual that something this important for the our town of Fountain Hills would be scheduled um during this uh during the Christmas season is close to Christmas and during uh for our Jewish friends um in the middle of Hanukkah um I I find it kind of questionable it's pretty important and I would think you would want to um you would want to vote on this um in the future in January when people are back from the trips that's not why I came up here though what I wanted to mention is um the sign the way it's uh it's being shown as being U lit is fine in my in my opinion I have a bigger problem with um MCO um I know that there was a point where one of the employees of the city was going around checking the lumens on people's houses and I will tell you right now that sign violates our Lumen policy right now we have to pull the shade down because at night um when it has the maximum amount of white uh it it could be seen I can see it and we're about a block block and a half away and it's so bright it's shining into our house so I don't know who voted that one in but that that sign violates our polic Our Town policy which affects all of us um to uh to Ed's Point um and and and Larry's um I didn't I didn't think about I didn't think about the change of zoning but if Target does go out what's to stop that whole area from just being Apartments I mean if they get the zoning they can do whatever the hell they want that's not what this agenda item is stipulating I I don't know how we got down that path but that's not what it's stipulating well this is merely related to a modification to replace and add Monument signs I I I realize ize that um and but I just wanted to tell you that I I agree with what was said and with the regards to the change of zoning and uh the monument signs do need to adhere to the ordinance that you all work so hard to put together I I I it's you're losing credibility if you put together an ordinance and then right right away we're violating our own ordinance so that's what I have to say and thank you very much and have a happy holiday thank you thank you any more speaker cards Paul no chair Jason would you like to speak before I close the public hearing Mr chair only for your benefit thank you I've heard so many times about the signage ordinance that was just updated that I know the last one sort of broke the camels back you didn't touch as a town the monument signs in the ordinance update so just so you know and so you're aware you're not violating any of your own rules you're obviously free to do whatever you'd like with these signs um I appreciate the time you've had tonight um to the extent that I can answer any questions I'd be happy to C can you help me with the the definition of mut muted on the secondary signage real quick how how do we how does muted mean washing out brand um pantones is that the right word or limiting limiting the Spectre of what can be placed on the tenant signage so yes they would essentially a much more narrow uh ability to have color or tone so is the is the updated um render I suppose that we saw in here is that indicative that it would that it would all be in a common in a common scheme in a common brush stainless or a common that is exactly what we're proposing because we were suggested that that was to keep it as unified as possible now uh should a tenant demand a trademark if it is in fact a trademark not just a logo but you are entitled to have a trademark um unadulterated um Commissioners any other questions for is that the noise inside my head at this point yeah those are sheep those are sheet so we we have a dark sky commission we do in town we do and has the have you spoken with the dark sky commission about the sign is there Mr chair commissioner no we have not okay I didn't I wasn't aware that you had one if you have one if there is one we weren't directed to it but we're happy to speak with one yeah and I strongly suggest that you do because it's a it is a very important part of the community uh very important to the community certainly that's my question what's what's the difference between permissible under current uh code for signage and what's existing versus what's proposed as somewhere in between or is the existing the existing sign maxed out under current code for square footages and height uh Mr chairman uh Commissioners uh to answer your question I believe it's maxed out but it's also it's largely based on the sign program the if I may so the existing sign that's there at 14 tall and 10 ft it exceeds the current code also current code is 12T tall 50 ft so the previous PUD allowed for an exception to the sign code now they're W to do that and when you look at the underlying language farter John is was there was there a condition previously or currently that that takes into account the the podium separate from the actual signage surface it's all from ground from grade okay Commissioners any other questions or shall I close the public hearing commissioner wats one more comment um I too am a bit confused by the CT C2 PUD change and I think it would be easier for me to support if we eliminated that verbiage and simply focused on the sign and had an exception for the sign the current sign code as opposed to changing the overlay completely if that makes sense you can't do that though why because it's already in a PUD Mr chairman commissioner uh I believe that would require uh uh action from the board of adjustment through a request uh for a variance if we wanted to address the sign specifically I'd be more comfortable addressing the sign specifically than talking about changing the entire overlay oh going to the principal's office now uh chair Vice chair just if I can just a little bit more so as farad already mentioned the Pud currently sets the the sign criteria for for this development and so it was done through a specific ordinance well maybe you could go to the board of adjustment that would be odd to do it that way this is the correct way to change those signed standards within that approved PUD but one of the challenges we have is we no longer have PUD in our ordinance it was changed to pad so that's why that nomenclature is changing to bring it up to the current code since they don't have puds anymore they're called pads so they're changing nothing else about the approved Center other than this aspect of the specific sign regulations that were part of that previous plan development does it make it easier to change anything else in the future be back through the same process a resoning process through pnz to council complete resoning so now what we all all we have to do is weigh the current sign code whether or not it IT addresses Monument signs and that the size is really what we're down to again again yeah chair Vice chair so the the current PUD allows a much larger sign that would be allowed in the sign code and so you want to allow even larger sign is the question okay thank you commissioner kic what so what what is currently allowed in the Pud how high how big is the sign do we know do you do you guys know current allowance and I believe it's built that size is a 14 by10 the 20 x 20 is that that correct is it 12 I thought was 14 he tell me it's 12 currently I thought it was 14 what's that I thought it was 14 they're telling me it was 12 12 by 10 does current PUD okay so okay 12 by and 12's the height is there a restriction in the Pud that prohibits that from being pulled out further into the rideway I mean isn't that the main objective here is to get it closer to the rideway get it closer to to the curb line no Mr chairman there i' to my knowledge there's nothing that prohibits it from uh going into the ride away um however uh approval of this pad also is uh when it comes time for building permit application that needs to uh also accompany an encroachment permit into the RightWay and then our engineering department expressed that um they wouldn't be uh opposed to such a request I think one of the other concerns is that if you pull it into the RightWay which I do like the idea I think you have a line of sight issue again um visibility of traffic and so on if you pull it too far into the right way we're proposing to pull it anyway I I understand but if we just leave left the same sign and P It Forward into the RightWay then you'd have that line of sight problem right well there are still some engineering standards that need to be adhered to regards to site visibility triangles and all right Commissioners commissioner depa you still awake yes yes I am awake I must say that you Commissioners look great on TV [Music] all right let's close a public hearing formally uh commissioner's final discussion and a motion please no final discussion looking for a motion on agenda item six commissioner Watts I give up um I just want um I move to deny the application as written commissioner there a second to commissioner Watts's motion commissioner's motion has failed seeking alternate motions commissioner Cory so if we approve this it is within our guidelines it meets the signed ordinance criteria right no it's site specific to this 22.5 Acres right Mr chairman commissioner Cory uh it does deviate uh as I mentioned earlier the main sign identified a sign a over there at the intersection with center lane deviates uh zoning ordinance criteria for sign height and sign area sign B uh exceeds the criteria or exceeds the limit for sign area only I would personally consider a motion a convoluted motion that recommended approval of six with the incorporation of of muted secondary signage contingent on the council voting in favor of our agenda item five and if agenda item failed the council then agenda item six I would recommend a denial I would like to add a stipulation that um the dark sky commission has the opportunity to review the proposed sign may I of course you may thank you so there's not a dark sky commission as far as a town appointed commission there is the dark sky organization um they have no Authority in reviewing these they do provide some feedback to us from time to time they do go out and they have their meters where they they will check some of these things from time to time but yeah that and that's what I I guess that's what I'm saying that I would like their feedback on the sign or that they're oh I guess no because I don't want to give them the right to approve it obviously have no role for that I mean I can say I've Serv on that board for years um and with the Halo illuminant if I said it right I don't think there's going to be any issue there because those lights are back lit it's not going to be projecting a bright light out I think that would be okay all right then yeah forget my stipulation I think there's a horse trade here right I mean you're you're you're getting bigger but we put stipulations of Halo lighting we put stipulations of a dimming control on on this Monument um at a reasonable hour will let staff make that determination and with the secondary signage being muted to me that's horse trading what's kind of visually unappealing today for something that's a little bit larger but is more aesthetically appealing and probably shows a little better at night um for all of those adjacent to it so that would be my motion with with those stipulations um and also in consideration that it's contingent on the council uh voting in favor of of our agenda item five on the 6.7 acre rezone so moved Paula can we do a roll call vote please commissioner kov second it I Vice chair wats commissioner Cory I commissioner dster nay commissioner depa May chairman gray I stalemate St mate clarification sir yes so that's a edal denial so it go to Town Council as a denial okay all right agenda item 7 8 and N very swiftly farad and John commission discussion request for research staff summary of commission request and report from the development director please so the first two are yours have anything for me no no okay so um my report would be uh we do have a couple of items for your consideration at your January meeting uh one of which will be to pick up the discussion of uh wireless communication uh facilities and be able to give staff some direction uh with some public input on how we want to proceed with that and the other item farod seem like you had one oh yes we've had a a application submitted to amend our ordinance as it applies to medical marijuana facilities and so that text amend will also be before you very good all right agenda item 10 adjourned happy holidays thank you