Cave Creek approves $57.4M budget, rejects mandatory developer open houses

the regular Town council meeting of town of C Creek Arizona is called to order any have the roll call please council member augeron council member Bunch council member Alama council member Maguire pres council member rhs here vice mayor Roy here mayor Morris present all our President we have a quorum thank you have the Pledge of Allegiance Evelyn would you lead us in the pledge tonight flag United States Amer to the rep for it stands one nation under God indivisible Li and justice for all thank you uh public announcements uh I guess we all smelled smoke about 3:00 this afternoon it was another exciting day on the firefront it sounds like they may have it uh under control to some extent they said if it holds tonight they they're feeling good about it they didn't fly some of the airplanes today so I'm curious to find out what caused it I have an announcement oh okay go ahead just D on Tuesday May 28th um I'm sponsoring excuse me Bruce Aron and I are sponsoring Amanda monise for a presentation of the desert Desert Hills at Desert Foothills Library at 4:30 p.m.

Amanda's a board member of the central Arizona project she'll be discussing three items federal state interaction structural issues with both dams uh and impacts of future water cuts on Cave Creek if anyone's interested it'll be from 4:30 to 5:30 pm on Tuesday May 28th other announcements seeing none we'll move to call the public Bobby it's your turn see me over the podium ouch uh just would like to uh especially to my neighbors um I in a neighbor M Tom Secor we live over at Ranch minana um many of you I just told you a few minutes ago we started a team clean Cave Creek team and clean thing that we're hoping to build up and probably quarter we thought quarterly maybe yeah quarterly to get some Volunteers in the area neighbors I'm talking to a few of the restaurants to see if they'll sponsor it a bit how Maron has been great he got us the bags and the vest and uh the picker uppers or Gophers whatever you want to call them and we did Carefree Highway Earth Day from about uh the AR brao Starbucks down to Home Depot we had 12 14 bags of trash Paul was with us and we're going to do it again this Saturday if you all would put the word out we meet here at 9:00 a.m.

love to have as many people as we can uh we're going to pick up yesterday I walked Cave Creek about a quarter of a mile and picked up two huge bags of trash it's just unbelievable what people are throwing doing it do to our town so we're hoping to build this up um get as many people involved I walk spur across on Sundays up to feed some peses at on yuck and spur cross and I pick up three three to four bags of trash on that walk and I've come to the city council today to ask if there's a chance we can get a couple of no litter signs in this town posted it might help a little bit I think we need as much help as we can and normally you see no littering or a $300 fine or $500 fine I I don't know what the procedure is here but I just want to put that on the table and see if we can make that happen it would be much appreciated in the meantime we Soldier on as Church Hill says thank you for your time did I use my three minutes I did and thank you for your Civic mindedness thank you for your Civic mindedness and cleanliness both no additional speakers mayor Town manager report thank you mayor uh mayor and councel and for the public I just wanted to remind everybody that um this Wednesday we have our very first Morning Star task force meeting it's going to be from 3:00 to 5: um it will be in this room here and this is the very first meeting that will um establish the future meeting dates and also a chair and vice chair will be um selected and then we will um uh have all the meetings identified hopefully at that meeting and then we can then start posting and um having the the agendas and the meeting minutes and everything officially on our website so the public can and uh uh monitor these meetings also these meetings will be open to the public so um the public will always be invited we'll also have a call the public at the very end of the meeting so the public can still have an opportunity to chime in and participate also I wanted to let the the council know that our very own Jim Ford our community risk reduction uh director was just inducted into the Hall of Flame this is one of the highest Honors that anybody in the U fire service um Can can receive and it's always wonderful to be recognized when you're still living which he is I think so let's hear it for him spech Brady yes could we stream could we live stream the you know we were asked and we were trying to keep the meetings informal and by live streaming with have to have all the Commissioners sitting up at the de and um that wasn't something we were trying to do so we're going to see if there's another way we can do this um that people can monitor either through phones or some other way so I yeah phone would be fine yeah um I had that request that I just saw late this afternoon so we're going to see what we can do I think streaming would change the the character of the the meetings rather than being informal um it would totally formalize the meeting so being like a border commission meeting I don't think that's the tenor that we're trying to set but we're going to see what we can do if we were to set up a a board style setup for the meetings I don't think the camera angles or the audio would work optimally for um for Zoom I know there are going to be some people who can't make the meeting that they'd like to listen in right so we'll see what we can do to set up some sort of a phone bank or a multi-line phone system for that so thank you for the the uh asking the question finally I uh mayor may I came in late so if I'm repeating myself I do apologize but as most people are aware over the weekend on Saturday um there was the wild cat fire did you talk a little bit about that already yeah well go ahead though so I just wanted to let you know initially it started off as 100 acres and a grew to 500 and now it's roughly 13,000 uh Acres um in the Bartle Lake uh Recreation Area um it's in the Tonto National Forest um there's no eminent danger uh to our own residents we did um open up our rodeo grounds for people that might be out of the area that needed to um bring their horses or livestock my understanding is um we had very few takers of that and and we eventually close that um around lunchtime today so uh that's all I have to report mayor thank you on the uh we had a presentation scheduled tonight by RJ Cardon of the meropa county parks that has been postponed uh is there a date yet or or is that g to we have a a tentative date I believe um was it the 17th yeah we're waiting for him to confirm the 17th of June very good thank you next on the agenda is the consent agenda we have two items proposed the consent agenda tonight Council discussion possible action to accept the 10 foot wide deed of gift or utility easement on assessors partiel 26-13 D 014a located at 7045 East AR Royal Road Cape Creek Arizona 85331 and the second one is Council discussion possible approval of resolution number r224 d05 a resolution of the mayor and Council the town of Cave Creek Arizona appointing the town of Cave Creek Town manager Grady E Miller as Chief Financial Officer of the town for the purpose of submitting the annual expenditure limitation report to the Arizona auditor general office for the fiscal year 2025 uh is there a motion to approve that consent agenta motion to approve consent agenda second all those in favor I opposed the eyes have it motions pass a 70 next is a council discussion possible adoption of the town of Cave Creek pistol year 2024-25 tentative budget in the amount of 57 m393 79 $7 um adoption of the Ted budget caps the total expenditures of the fiscal year 2024-25 budget presented by the town manager and finance director thank you mayor uh mayor and Council and for the public who are here tonight um we're pleased to present the tenative budget to the mayor and Council um the last time you saw this was um during a budget workshop on May 1st and May 2nd and the staff was taking copious notes during those workshops and so what you're going to see when we first get into the presentation are some of the changes and additions and edits as requested by the council and then we'll get into the rest of the um the budget so with that I'm going to go ahead and turn it over to uh uh Mitsy who will then go over um presentation in front of you and Mitsy do you want to kind of explain the um PowerPoints that are in front of them and how they correspond with the page number so they can follow if they wish to yes I will good evening mayor um and Council um what was left um in front of you tonight was um the 11 by 17 pages that are out of the um tenative budget book um they're the same pages that are in the budget book they're just printed up in a bigger size um for easier uh viewing um but they correlate to the um specific page numbers in the tentative budget book and then also um you'll see the page number I think to the tenative budget book on the left and on the right side is the um Council agenda packet page number that's referenced there and you'll also see those page numbers referenced um in the PowerPoint presentation that which is all was also left for you um as a hand out as to what we'll be viewing um on the PowerPoint presentation on the um screens here tonight any questions on that so far no so we're going to as Grady mentioned start with going through the budget changes that we had from our May 1st and May 2nd um Council meetings um for our budget workshops and the first change that we had um was we corrected the rodeo ground fee Revenue with an increase of $20,000 for fiscal year 24 estimated and 2,879 for the fiscal year 25 proposed budget those changes are reflected um on page 47 of your budget book and page 68 of 362 on your agenda packet the next um general fund change that we had was in uh the transfers in from spur cross um that results in an increase of 65,00 um for a total transfer in the general fund of the 550 which was due to the correction of the half cent sales tax in the spur cross uh revenues um that we had referenced when we had met um during the budget uh Workshop meetings that was a formula air that was in there and we had um corrected it but it resulted in um that change there in the uh transfers in we also um due to the same um um correction of the half cent sales tax and the Wastewater revenues um it resulted in a decrease in a trans in the transfers um out to um from the general fund to the uh utility funds and those were uh represented a decrease of 131,00 to the total transfers out of 2,636 298 um those changes are both referenced um on page 48 of the budget book and Page 69 of 362 of the agenda packet our next um general fund change that we made um we added um as a note indicating what the $27,000 in contracts and services uh was um it was for consulting services and the town manager budget for the uh Council Retreat strategic plan Etc that note can be um shown on page 50 of the budget book and Page 71 of 362 of the agenda packet also on that same page um in the town manager budget uh we reduced the life and medical expense to 25,000 or reduced it down 2,916 to coincide with uh the employment agreement then we also made a uh general fund change to the uh law enforcement budget we had a reduction of 13647 in the psprs retirement line that's shown on page 69 of the budget book and Page 90 of 362 of the uh agenda packet also on that same page you will see um we also had an increase in the law enforcement um f school year 25 proposed budget of 58,000 that 58,000 is an increase for uh $2,000 in nonprofessional services for increased traffic enforcement 10,000 in supplies for two new traffic flock devices and 28,000 in subscriptions for the new flock safety software and increases in the Maricopa County uh Wireless police and fire or I'm sorry police and Emergency Management radio usage fees the axom evidence management system and the Code Red emergency alert and notification system charges we also created um a new Department um that's entitled General government to include those expenditures that were related to townwide items in the budget um this new Department can be seen on page 74 of the budget book and page or page 95 of 362 of the agenda packet excuse mey if I may so um I honestly believe that this creates greater transparency a lot of these items you're going to see we're kind of buried in different areas of the budget and this just brings it all to the front and center so um again it's not that these items were inappropriate or inappropriately placed in different departments but these are this particular um uh Department we which we call General government Department it basically are those areas that doesn't really fit in any one particular department and it it's really um a catchall and it's really an appropriate place as an example our memberships and dues with um the league of Arizona cities and towns and also marov Association of governments that will be in this particular um Department budget rather than the mayor and Council budget or rather than the town manager's um budget another case and point is as you could see move the almost the $69,000 for recruitment retention pay we put that in general government rather than keeping it in the manager's office uh budget just doesn't make sense to be in my my particular Department budget with that I'll go ahead and turn it over to Mitsy to continue um with the listing here but this is really just for greater transparency and identifying a more appropriate location for these expenditures okay so um yes this was just a move between different departments into the uh General government department but like Grady said we moved the 69,1 149 for the recruitment retention pay for general fund employees from the town manager Department into the general government Department we also moved um the 1485 for general liability workman's comp Auto and property insurance from the administration department we moved um 30,000 for the Cave Creek Museum support of the local landmarks program from the administration department and we also um added a note um to that line indicating that that was for the uh local landmarks program we moved uh 9500 for the memberships in mag and the Arizona League of cities and towns from the Town Council um Department Department we moved um 7500 for Employee Appreciation from administration department and 10,000 for holiday celebration from the Town Council Department we added $10,000 to the fiscal year 25 proposed budget for um volunteer appreciation per council's request um but that's residing in the the general government department and lastly we moved 40,000 for Community grants from the Town Council Department moving on to the um next slide for finance we had corrected the one FTE from fiscal year 2024 from the management analyst positions in the authorized position table and that can be seen on page 77 of the budget book or page 98 of 362 of the agenda packet for um the public works department we move move the fleet division from the administration department to the public works department and that can be shown um on page 85 of the budget book and Page 106 of 362 of the agenda packet also in public works we um made the council requested increase of 300,000 for the cap Creek Road median enhancement project to uh for a total project cost um in the public work department of 500,000 so those um are the general fund changes that we um had made from our um budget Workshop sessions the net of the above changes that we just went through to the general fund for the fiscal year 25 proposed budget is a reduction of 13,960 um from the number that we had previously presented to you at the um workshops any questions on general fund changes okay so move forward to the changes that we made to the um special Revenue funds and it was actually just um One Fund and that was spur cross related to the um correction of that formula for the half cent sales tax um but that was an increase of 131,00 in uh sales tax revenues to that fund for a total um for total revenue shown for fiscal year 25 of the m 89430 and that aligns with the um 2% sales tax increase over the fiscal year 24 estimated amount those um that change into spur cross Revenue can be seen um on page 95 of your budget book or 116 of 362 of the agenda packet also on that page is the second um bullet Point here on the slide which is um because of the additional Revenue correction that we had corrected in the spur cross fund we um ended up with um extra Revenue in there which increases our transfers out of that fund uh 50% going to the general fund and 50% going to The Cave Creek Water infrastructure fund um so half of the 131 800 is 659 so that increase uh 659 went to the general fund and the other 659 to The Cave Creek Water infrastructure fund for total transfers out of spur cross to those funds each of 8295 and this next um slide um sounds a duplicate but this is the change that's made to um our Capital project fund which is the Cave Creek Water infrastructure fund this represents present the other side of the transfer that we just discussed but it increased the transfer into this fund from spur cross that 65900 to the 82 9550 and this change can be seen on page 101 of the budget book or page 122 of 362 of the agenda packet we're going to move forward to our um Enterprise fund changes we we just made one change um and that was to the Wastewater fund also related to the um correction of the uh formula for the half cent sales tax um we increase the revenue and the Wastewater fund the same amount the 131 800 to a, 89430 to align with that 2% sales tax increase over the fiscal year 24 estimated number this change can be seen on page 104 the budget book or page 125 of 362 of the agenda packet also on this same page you'll see um because of that additional 131 800 in Revenue reflected in the Wastewater fund that reduced the amount required um in as being transferred in from the general fund so it was reduction of that 130 the transfer was reduced by that 131 800 to a total of a million 35840 so this is all of the um budget changes that were requested from the um previous budget workshops um are there any questions on these changes or anything I might be able to help answer Mr Mayor um at our last meeting we had and I won't certainly repeat it this evening we had a lot of discussion on spr Cross Ranch and the fund and um and actually two funds and there was discussion about changing the name of funds and so forth but at the last meeting and there may not have been consensus but there was discussion regarding $100,000 being put into one of the funds and I see that's not contained in the budget um what can this council do at this point of the budget before final adoption to try to raise the stature in the importance of uh beginning to build funds not only for the category of open SP preservation but probably anticipating the state land's appraisal results and hopefully some peace meal or larger than peace M acquisition of State lands uh what can we do um for example uh can we get the council's consideration of an ordinance change in the current calendar year to restore the percentage that had been allocated prior to its transfer back in 201 14 by mayor Francia and we get that after some forthcoming study that the staff is doing and maybe consider a January 1st of 2025 date for restoring that original percentage rate for funds for open space and if we're going to have a dialogue maybe not this evening at this time but getting these regular postings for more monies on water to at some point have a discussion about capital formation being done by bonding which I think was a recommendation from the water committee years ago uh to try to free up money that I think we're going to need to demonstrate the town's intent with the state land Department going forward so I think I think we lost ground since the last meeting and actually I thought at the last meeting we had a good discussion and some progress had been made but I was corrected later that no nothing was really accomplished so um the $100,000 that really was show money because it disappeared by the time the meeting was over but can we get the council to consider doing something proactively going forward with the restoration of that percentage of the money that was originally established in the 0.5% sales tax I mean when we did it at the time and I plead guilty to signing it we made a commitment to the community that it'll be out of their pockets but it would be for a Spur across and Beyond and I think now that monies have been used to allev mediate other Municipal challenges involving Water and Sewer that as I said last time maybe we can try to rep prioritize uh you were on Facebook this weekend Mr Mayor talking about state land so I'm assuming that maybe there's Collective support here about doing state land preservation after the numbers come in but can we be more definitive in the upcoming budget uh with if not necessarily a commitment of monies and as I understand that we still have the 1.5 million that will be available July 1st that is yes and you'll see that when we run through the tenative budget highlights but that's in the open space acquisition fund okay so you are starting with that foundational balance again in July 1st of the new fiscal year but I know you've had it before but it's still there in other words that's not a loss why having trouble unpacking all those issues so let do one let's do one at a time what can we do to get the formula restored for the percentage that was in the spur cross original funding formula back for future open space preservation what would the council think is realistic or it would take a change in town code so we'd have to go through and it would take an amendment to the ordinance yeah that's correct can we get that on the June agenda for PR preliminary consideration and then aim for a January 1st implementation after there's more staff study what can we commit to this evening let's let's make a motion make a motion well I'm trying to get a sense of the group I don't want to but I'm I'm going to be against it I'll tell that right what would you what would you favor Mr Mayor because you did a lot of pros this weekend on state land acquisition because we don't know what it's going to cost when I when I take when are you going to start saving money for it on saying and I'll I'll give you an answer when I take 4,000 acres and multiply it by 20,000 bucks an acre which the number was given me by a real estate agent that's $80 million so it's going to take a a real plan to do this and we don't have that plan today and we are in the midst of developing information so I think it's premature to start planning for that until we have the numbers and can put it together Mr Barrett I don't want to debate your your observations on this I just want to highlight the fact that water and sewer have met their challenges for many many years by the use of this money and it would appear that we're coming to the culmination of those monies being used for that purpose and I'm not asking or suggesting to this group this evening for money today or tomorrow or July 1st I would like to get some policy uh consideration for a point certain in the future for restoring that percentage of the formula that the town had used for other purposes during this past several years if we don't accumulate enough money in the next two to three to five years as the state land consideration is done by Future councils there may not be the legitimacy of the town's position to even purchase portions of some of the 4,400 acres of land I mean it's already kind of being carved up I think informally like a cow for good States and ripack and so forth so we may not acquire the full portion but we have all this money on the books that we use for different purposes and now this year we're spending the money that was supposed to be savings or whatever term you want to use the 30 thou 30 million going down to 20 million but is not competing open space preservation as a as a town priority is not competing successfully at the rate we're spending on Water and Sewer so there's less money actually available for other investment purposes and then secondarily why are we not doing or why can't at a later point we talk about Capital development through bonding but the NeverEnding parade of requests from the staff for new water projects and upgrades is there nothing we can commit to with this council do going forward that would follow the Staffing advice to try to have some future point of those money is being restored well we're at a budget meeting now so the the thing we can do tonight is I I'm looking at at the Brain Trust here is if if if you want to propose taking money from one section to another and having a council vote on that we can do that but we can't we can't uh do anything on the agenda uh with code or or changes until we have it on agenda we could also and you'd know right then what the what the support was for that um so mayor if I may jump in I I know you're trying to finish a thought but I did want to let the council know that part of the rate model for utilities on the water side includes that money that is transferred in from um the spur cross into I'm not saying spur cross but that tax that generates money for spur cross does go into a transfer that goes to fund utility 30 which is the water fund Cave Creek Water so you know it's going to have to be if if money there is is um being used to start socking away for preservation then maybe this fall when I've mentioned before that we have to be looking at the uh Capital master plan that Sean is putting together for our water and wastewater operations that we need to look at uh you know impacts from what we've seen on cost escalations and having rates absorb anything that we do here that we're talking about tonight the rates would have to absorb the loss of $800,000 or so if if that's the council's direction so the net thing is utility rates go up to utility rates will go up to cover that money any money taken out if if the decisions to do that say prior to all the debt being paid off or which I think starts happening in in uh 28 27 27 yes so again we're we're we can entertain the idea it's just the the I mean if it's a concept right now and it's part of the motion to prove the adopt the the tenative budget and to to look at making a change to that we can certainly do that and bring something back at a later date but think um you know there needs to be some look at the impacts on that I'm not really I'm not I'm not prepared to do that tonight so so the the N effect is if you make that take that money out of the water you're going to have to incl it's going to come out of the pockets of people they're their utility bills are going to go up well conversely though you also have half the people subsidizing the other half people so that that uh tax that comes out of the sales tax you've got people who aren't on water or sewer and they're subsidizing people who are on Town Water and Sewer so it's a it's a kind of a null argument my personal feeling is water and sewers should pay for themselves if they can't pay for themselves maybe we ought to look at you know getting somebody else to do it for us well somebody's going to pay for it and the let me finish I'm saying the the rationale when that was done part of the rationale moving it over was that the people in the water company did not make these decisions the Town Council made the decisions that got us in the position on the Water Company where it was um such a financial burden and so the Town Council made the decision to ease that pain and if we reverse that that pain is going to go back in uh it was it was uh uh and and the Water Company benefits everybody uh we don't have have property values in this town because we don't have enough well water to supply everybody and uh the the water company is a huge factor in keeping property values High I I've got no problem with the what water company providing service to the customers nor the sewer company I just think that they ought to pay for themselves and yes that's part of it if you own a property that has a well and septic system you're essentially creating your own infrastructure so why should people who are on Wells and septic systems be subsidizing people who are on Town Water and Sewer it's it's a rhetorical question Bob I'm not saying we solve the problem today but over the next year or two that needs to be solved they need to pay for themselves okay well we're not in a position to make these kind of financial changes on the spur of the moment because there are real effects to to PE and we've got 20 years of History it just didn't start yesterday it started 20 years ago decisions of been made and it it's going to take it's going to take really frankly until those bonds start to pay out before we're in a position to really make a a dent in this and that starts in 2027 no I I think we should put it on the agenda and have a discussion put what on the agenda but the the whole um what are we going to do with that that uh sales tax I mean I think that's a a good topic for a future agenda after pass the budget well we can certainly put it on the agenda for a Cod change but I'm I think we've got we got two issues here one is we got a budget in front of us right that has it there and two it takes a code change to make that change understand but I think we ought to revisit that the code change well it it takes to I I I don't I'm not ready to do that until we have a plan on on the estate lands because I I think there's no sense doing some things ahead of time and then have to unring that Bell later if it turns out that's not the case so I think we need to have a comprehensive view of this thing and not just something that at the last minute in the budget frankly well Mr Mayor that's not a fair description this did not come up the very last minute we've had Dialogue on this for innumerable meetings including the last meeting I was hoping we could have some collaborative discussion and I I don't want to suggest a number that would be offensive to anybody in the council or might not be realistic what I'm really after is we lost $100,000 since our last meeting this it's going back or it's not forward I would publicly ask you though in the month of June to try to schedule an initial discussion on an ordinance Amendment for the purpose of restoring the percentage of the 05% okay back for open space that's that's one thing I would ask which I know it's noted agenda that we can do that we can do we can's let's let's put the agenda item with with the item would be to restore the the funding the way it was originally step here that loud and clear will do that just just one one point of clarification I'm not looking to change everything next year or the year after but we need to over the next two or three years particularly as the as we pay down those bonds we need to do that we need to make sure the water and silver pay for themselves Dusty that's been the policy for many years here and to say that that is just now starting now is absolutely inaccurate there were a number of there were many problems in that in the water companies um we were already decided to uh put together a bonding proposal uh to look to take the capital portions of the uh CIP there's it's a mixture of um maintenance items and capital but to take the capital items out because if you Bond a million dollars worth of capital you only have to pay about $70,000 a year carry that but this isn't a new issue there has been a tremendous amount of work done in doing exactly what you say including well before you got here no that's fine but we we're still now you've been doing this for 14 or since 2014 I have not been doing it well it's the council has the council's been doing it since well but hear me out the council's been doing it since 2014 so we've been admiring a problem for eight years time to fix it or 10 years let's let's fix the problem let's put it on the agenda in June and let's start talking about options I'm not saying that I don't think we have the funding to you know immediately turn it off and and do it the other way around but I think we ought to start putting money aside at an increasing volume over the next few years so that when the state land trust we can buy it we buy as much as we can well I don't either agree or disagree with you I think it's premature what we're doing the the appraisals now the approaches now and it's a ready fire aim proposal that's that's my take on it it it may be it may be that's the answer but why not wait until we do the analysis see what it says well I thought we were supposed to have that analysis back um shortly here the appraisal you're referring to Luke do you know when that is it's June or something the uh right uh mayor members of council uh councilman rhods the the town has uh selected CBRE um and we're negotiating the contract right now and they uh for their scope projected a six- week timeline to have that completed when would that be completed B okay so once this contract is signed so then maybe it's better sered that we do this in July when we have the appraisal number and we we can then talk about what the future looks like for the water and sewer it's of doing it in June yeah I well I I really think they're independent I mean the water and sewer is on a a path dealing with these uh the bonds that have been with us for 17 years now um it really is about the state land uh that that's the area that needs that needs the planning and uh we just don't have the number to do that today but Bob I I I hear you saying let's turn on your thank you again let's just have a plan to get that on the table I I appreciate your um bringing those details to light here in this conversation but we made a promise when we put that tax on that it was going to go in a certain direction and so that's I think that's what I'm hearing uh councilman Dusty say and if we can get agreement with our uh Town manager and and with our mayor to have that out there somewhere as a serious conversation I think that's great well that conversation would be an agenda item to to change it okay we well you've heard it we okay we've done that all right that's what you hear me say i' like to hear the other council members any else want to chime in here yeah you know we obviously we've subsidized the utilities for a very long time uh and I think uh as as the um loans are paid off that is the time to begin to put the money back that we actually have have taken from the half cense and and in all honesty the half cent sales tax when that was implemented to begin with for spur cross I don't think anybody ever foresaw the the number being somewhere around you know 1.8 million a year or or whatever the number is it Mitsy is that close it's a mil yeah for um fiscal year 25 it's a million 894 300 yeah you know we you know we were you know when that was instituted you were probably looking you know may maybe 400,000 a year uh Ju Just to cover the stuff and I think uh the Equitable thing to do is is um once we uh get the um the loans paid then we restore those funds at the at the uh numbers at at a reasonable rate that doesn't doesn't handicap us as far as the uh the um utilities also because we what we're doing is we're trying to build a reliable we built a reliable utility department that that that is there when you turn the tap on water comes out when you flush the toilet that goes away um those things are are are equally important in my mind so I think I think there's a path forward that that that restores and gets us back in back to where we were at that's about all I got to say about that creating spur cross was a seminal occurrence for the town of Cape Creek um I attended sessions recently at the uh Regional Park uh and there may have been other people here who did also and and there are ongoing efforts to try to find ways to uh expand the open space that we have I think we're all committed to those I think it is going to be important to look at this in a holistic approach the Strategic approach is going to be very important there's no question about the commitment but looking at it strategically is going to be the way that we need to go about it underlining the fact that we're all very committed to open space I just think that it's worthy of a discussion in the future and um we can discuss it more at length and in detail and you know with great Consciousness over what our U responsibilities are as a Town Council and in fiscal management not only do we have a water utility that requires a lot of investment but we have a fire company and we cannot forget how that is exponentially going to grow in the next year or two so we have to all keep that in mind um as much as we love open space we have priorities here too uh for Safety and Security of our community and it it takes a lot of money and uh we have to really be aware of how much and where it comes from and what's responsible frankly uh Tom you got an extra $200,000 for medians three it said three to 500 from three to five got two pardon me I just want to say it's actually worse than you think it's 500,000 total that's what I mean and to me if we want to be serious and not just symbolic about uh being in investment oriented towards uh preservation then that 200,000 should go to the open space fund not to medians in my book in my world $ 250,000 or whatever the increase was is a lot of money uh $300,000 dedicated to improving our medians per year is a is a good is a good number and uh so if you want to show how much you're willing to compromise I would suggest that we do that tonight let's do that I'll support the motion Mr Mayor I mean I I think you actually make a good point put your money where your mouth is if you really believe in the critical timing importance of open space preservation we have medians they are vegetated why put such a criticality of spending on those so if you want to make a motion at the appropriate time well I'm I'm happy with what it is I mean I think she makes a good well the medians in other words why would you prioritize medians in the commercial Corridor over the chance of saving the creek out there the Gans up on the state land well I I we're not they aren't at risk they are not at risk the idea that we're something we're going to do tonight is put them at risk is is is bogus we have we have we have the right uh to initiate that auction um and to and to make a bid but before we do those things we need to plan it's a lot of money and it it may take one of these spur cross type tax increases to do it but we need to to plan this this town and these water companies are a testament to this ad hoc horseback reasoning rather than doing things logically reasonably in good time when the numbers are available and I that's what I'm going to support I am not going to support um the kind of things that got us in this to start with and I I think that just at the last minute uh coming up with this and wanting to do this uh without rational rationally putting those numbers down I don't think it's right well Mr Mayor just in response uh and I don't want to light going on there Mr Mayor you have a couple options you have some time until the bonds are paid off that's what 20 627 the state land department has told Luke that they'll they'll abide by they're they're considering extending the current IGA to till till when 2029 well it's the 20-year period is good till 2029 they've expressed interest in extending those agreements beyond that so the point being under those agreements you're preserving the option that gives you time then to take a look at your options once the bonds are paid off but you don't have any urgency in terms of preserving the space because it's governed by this the current IGA which is 29 and could be longer and I don't know so the point is we have to we have to balance that though because land ain't getting cheaper around here we wait another five years that land's going to be worth a lot more than it is today I'm just saying there's time for you to consider that's all I'm saying so so I'm grateful for the time you allowed for this discussion Mr Mayor well because I just was trying to see if there was anything that could still but if if if you want if you want to to put uh on the agenda to put the put the money back the way it was is it really I'm I'm willing to do that okay I consider that a win uh we're not defining the timing we're just defining the conversation because that way we know at some point in the future down the road when everybody recommends professionally I'm not put on as a motion that we vote on what like with second motion but I mean that it may it may win it may lose I I don't I don't know you want to make a motion s I'll off you a second well it has to be an agenda it's not agend next time yeah it' be the next another meeting okay yeah to probably in July as we talked because we potentially could have the results let's let's find out how much it's going to cost before we start making decisions so I agree with with the mayor let's find out how much it's going to C what you know what the state land trust or what what the appraisal comes in at and then we can have the discussion about water sewer and the appraisal and all the other things at the same time in August that makes yeah when the numbers are available I'm I'm ready I mean the the appraisal was ordered by Council uh and if we hadn't done that we wouldn't be even this far along so we're just uh I think we're juste of ourselves a little bit I don't want to be lab this a moment longer um but uh the only thing I was attempting to try to elicit was either from yourself or someone else up here to try to get enough meaningful money in an account to where if things begin to move with the state land Department we would look like we could afford the time of the person who's going to be meeting with us we do have a 1.5 eight 1.58 no 1.8 n one point up to what's the actone number no we actually um I'm sorry Vice May or not to um be in a disagreement but we had money in a a different fund called open space which is not the spur cross fund and that's what we were appropriating there was a fund balance there we recommended appropriating the 1.5 for next fiscal year what you're suggesting is a correct amount or spur cross if the full amount were to be allocated for open space but I think it we need to be very careful that the we have it's zoned open space as we speak which is a very high hurdle for anybody to get over it would take a supernova explosion in state law to get past that the the second thing is we have time we've been told that there's no one interested in it at this point the third thing is we have the ability to to bid if that comes if that comes to pass and the fourth thing is we are getting appraisal so that we can prepare a plan to do that that's all a rational analysis it's it's a rational way to handle this we also have the ability to extend the agreement so everything that can be done has been done except putting the money in the bank because we don't have it uh we're going to have to find out where that money is going to come from and how much it is and today as we sit here we do not know that and no one knows that we won't know it until we get the the the numbers put together and do an analysis of do we fund it out of spur cross and sales tax or do we fund it uh with bonding uh that's all up in the air right now well again I really appreciate everybody's time up here to go through this minutia and I'm excited about this coming back this summer so we can discuss a future ex time for reactivating that percentage of the tax for that purpose so I take that as commitment by everyone up here to do okay and and we'll we'll see uh uh Luke is there a time when this appraisal is supposed to be finished in these negotiations or not uh mayor members of council the um the RFP closed uh 10 days ago and we just announced to CBR today that they were selected to move forward and be uh the contract Appraiser for this um we still need to get a contract signed and then they'll start uh they had stated about six weeks uh that might be delayed a little bit until I return uh from Australia they might get started and then um because I'm I'm really the only staff member that was here when those annexations were done and those agreements were put in uh they'll likely need to interface with me a little bit on their background and research for uh for the appraisal report so they had estimated about 6 weeks to do um I that's why I stated maybe August to come back um because they might not get started you know next week or the week after they may they may delay that a little bit number one for the contract to be signed and then number two for me to get back into town so I'd refer this to staff then uh we're by the time we have the if we schedule a vote on the um uh what the the what do you call spur cross half ta right then we will not have these numbers back by then and there's going to take some time to get the numbers back and then put it together with our bond with our bonding attorney to develop what the options are for funding that that that purchase sure and just for clarification you can certainly if if the council's desire was to possibly make a change to the ordinance it doesn't have to have an effective date of you know right then and there it could be July of next year or thereafter so or January 1st of next year that You' have once analysis has been done is what I'm trying to say on that so or three years out whatever it may be whatever the council's desires are okay so we I'll work with you Tom to set a date that makes sense for this to come be Council for for a vote thank you okay where are we now well this was this was good I know you know everyone has the passion for the open space and preservation it's just how we get there and and and when so it it was good for us to hear that and we will certainly come back at a later date working with the mayor and and Tom on bringing that back to the council for this further discussion with that I'll turn it back over to Mitsy to resume well MIT still here okay so we um have wrapped up then um the changes that we had from the uh budget Workshop so we're going to move forward to our tenative uh budget highlights oops and we're going to begin with um a summary of our uh revenues uh by fund which um is shown on page 44 of the budget book or page 65 of 362 of your agenda packet this uh Revenue table that's shown includes um also includes uh uses of uh unrestricted fund balance and for the general fund the revenues um in the tenative budget are 21,44 $445,500 for our special Revenue funds um the amount is 7,750 103 for our uh Capital project fund it is2 m978 198 and the total for Enterprise funds is $2,219 1856 um which leaves uh our total revenues um in the tenative budget for All funds of 57 m393 797 this uh next slide shows for our um fiscal year 2425 um this is a pictoral view of um the 2 proposed total expenditures by fund type um it reflects all operating and uh Capital expenditures and um showing of um in the general fund we've got uh expenditures of1 19 m738 892 uh our special Revenue funds total 5,991 um and $3 um that are made up from the funds shown below there of the grant fund the open space acquisition fund the highway user fund the spur Cross Ranch fund and the um our national opioid settlement fund for those amounts um shown um in yellow there on the slide and the uh total Enterprise funds total uh 31 milon 663 902 which are made up of um our Cave Creek Water uh fund or Desert Hills Water fund the Wastewater fund and um the amounts um proposed to be um drawn down from our with Loan Fund the next slide is um a table view um of the previous slide and represents um more detail of expenditures by Department um for the general fund but in total um again it's and highlighted in yellow are those totals uh for the general fund the special Revenue fund and the um Enterprise funds but our total um expenditures um proposed for fiscal year 25 in the tenative budget equal our revenues at the 57 m393 797 the next slide um is our general fund um summary and this is a presentation um for the general fund and breaks out our operating revenues and expenditures from our one-time um sources uses uh this first slide of the general fund summary shows um our fiscal year 25 proposed operating revenues for the general fund are $1 13,34 35 or I'm sorry 13, 34,35 are we've are proposing um estimated operating expenditures in the general fund of 11 million $284,990 um proposed transfers coming in from spur cross are 92955 um for a positive um net general fund operation um of 2,679 252 that's the bottom right hand um number bottom right hand corner number in green that number rolls forward here to the top of the next slide um where we start here um with that with that positive 2.6 million in um general fund operations from um the previous Slide the general fund one-time sources and uses um are showing our construction related revenue of a milion 456 759 we have general fund Capital expenditures proposed for fiscal year 25 of 7,295 1200 and our general fund transfers out to our utility funds of 2,636 298 and our contingency of a,1 159 359 for a net use of funds um proposed for fiscal year 25 of 9,634 098 this number reduces the um estimated beginning fund balance that the general fund is estimated to have of the 30,4 54792 and Le the proposed 25 general fund ending fund balance at 23, 499 946 from this ending um general fund balance the town um sets aside three months of operating expenditures in the operating Reserve uh leaving the general fund with an estimated fiscal year 25 unassigned fund balance of 20 million 678 863 it's the bottom number in the right in uh yellow our um the next slide here is a pie chart of our fiscal year 25 general fund uh Revenue sources which is just uh showing 68% of our Revenue coming from our uh local taxes 15% from State shared Revenue 9% from interest income 6% from local fees and 2% from U miscellaneous Revenue next slide um is our fiscal year 25 general fund expenditures by um Department uh this pie chart uh reflects both our operating and capital um expenditures for the general fund for each department the next slide um of the 7,295 20000 that we had um in capital outlay in the general fund from the general fund summary this slide um in front of you shows our um Capital initiatives that are proposed for fiscal year 25 with the uh biggest two being the um fire station renovation at um 2,899 th000 um and the our street Improvement projects at 2,9 93200 we're moving forward um for the tenative budget our into our special Revenue funds the first one being uh the national opioid settlement fund uh which can be found on page 90 of the budget book and Page 111 of 362 of the agenda packet uh this fund is estimated to have a beginning fund balance of $3,113 um it's estimated to take in um settlement proceeds and interest income revenue of 10,846 th000 and um we are estimating to appropriate uh 4,949 which is um all of the funds um as expenditures um leaving the um opioid settlement fund with a zero um ending fund balance the next special Revenue fund is the highway user fund found on page 93 of the budget book and Page 114 of 362 of the agenda packet um the herf fund is um estimated to have a uh beginning fund balance uh starting at $23,800 taking in Highway user uh tax revenue and interest income of $48,530 and estimating a um Capital uh Street expenditures of 475,000 for fiscal year 25 with our small contingency set aside per a financial policy of 39359 leaving herf with an estimated um ending fund balance of 98,3 the next special revenue is our uh spur Cross Ranch Conservation fund found on page 95 of the budget book and Page 116 of 362 of the agenda packet um spur cross is um the fund that gets zeroed out each year so it's estimated um to have a beginning fund balance of of zero um and revenues um are estimated to be uh collected for fiscal year 25 um with the half cent sales tax um are loc some local fees and uh interest income for total revenues of a mil 97500 um expenditures of 216,000 um that's paid to Maricopa County parks for administration and operation of the um Park and uh a million 7 59100 in uh transfers out which represents the 100,000 that gets transferred out for um general fund trails and then the 8295 to the general fund and the same amount out to the uh Cave Creek Water infrastructure fund which leaves the ending fund balance in the spur Cross Ranch Conservation fund of zero for fisal year 25 the next special Revenue fund is our open space acquisition fund which is found on page 97 of the budget book and Page 118 of 362 of the agenda packet the estimated beginning fund balance in the open space acquisition fund is a million 482 695 we are estimating um proposed 25 um interest income Revenue um to come in of 72,000 and we have appropriated all of the um fund balance and earnings in the amount of a554 695 um in fiscal year 2 for expenditures um if needed leaving um the ending fund balance at zero if the um Appropriations are um all expended in 25 and our final special Revenue fund is the grant fund found on page nine stop you just a second I just want to point out there that the the open space acquisition fund shows a million and a half bucks in it and it's shown is all spent because if we don't show it spent if something comes up like we did at spurt cross with the uh 30 Acres we can't buy it right so that money unless there is a project and right now I know of no project to that so it's just there in case something comes up thank you thank you mix okay so the last special Revenue fund is our grant fund um found on page 99 of the budget book and page 120 of 362 of the agenda packet um this grant fund uh similar to the spur cross fund is a zero fund balance fund and what is estimated to be received in revenues in this fund is also appropriated for expenditures to be spent um so the beginning and ending fund balances is um are zero for the grant fund and we are estimating revenues and total um appropriated expenditures of 3 million 665 we're moving forward to our um only uh Capital project fund which is the Cave Creek Water infrastructure fund found on page 101 of the budget book and Page 122 of 362 of the agenda packet this um fund has an estimated beginning fund balance of 3,553 386 we're estimating um proposed uh fiscal year 25 interest income and earnings of 135,000 is revenue and we have um transfers in um appropriated or budgeted in from spur cross in the amount of the 829 550 and transfers out budgeted out of this fund um for 3 Milli 87,7 48 and that transfer out is to The Cave Creek uh water fund um for the Phoenix interconnect project that leaves the ending fund balance in the Cave Creek Water infrastructure estimated at the end of fiscal year 25 at $710,000 we're moving forward to um our last set of funds which are Enterprise funds and we're going to start with the uh Wastewater fund which is on page 107 of the budget book and Page 128 of 362 of the agenda packet the uh waste water fund is starting with a zero um fund balance and we are um estimating proposed 25 revenues fiscal year 25 revenues coming in of 3,559 832 operating expenses including Debt Service um of 3,592 972 um which leaves the um net operations uh for the Wastewater fund um estimated in the negative at $33,150 we have uh transfer um coming in um from the general fund of the million 35840 and a capital expenditures estimated to go out of the uh 1,325 1, 325,000 uh leaving um the net result for the Wastewater fund at zero question Mitsy about about the reserves um the whiffer loans are guaranteed by general fund revenues is that correct the general fund has um funded the wiffer reserves for the Enterprise fund yeah but but the loans themselves are guaranteed by the general fund not not by the uh constituent Enterprise funds the um the loans are guaranteed um based on the sources of income some of those bonds or loans are excise tax based and others are um uh the revenues of that applicable utility it depends on the the issuance but there there are none that are that are strictly to Desert Hills is that right um some yes Desert Hills has with a we we use the funds to construct in Desert Hills but the loans themselves are not guaranteed or or backed up by Desert Hills either revenues or the assets yes I'm going to confirm but I believe we do have um desert let's just go on the assumption that I'm right okay um I did I just want to make a point here yeah I um believe Desert Hills does have I just need to find the debt note here in the um financial statements you're not GNA believe shut the I mean it's really not important other than other than the the aspect is is that the wiff reserves need to be funded by wifa revenues and I just want to make sure there are no accounting uh especially since you know they have not generated enough uh operating income I'll call it uh to fund those those reserves they have not so so it is I want to make it and I I talked with Grady Au this today I'm uh absolutely convinced that we should not be putting general fund revenues over there someday somebody's going to forget about that uh the the rates in Desert Hills ought to cover their own whiff of reserves or their portion of the Cave the ones that are guaranteed by cap Creek assets that is correct okay yes thank you okay our next slide um shows our Wastewater Capital initiatives for um proposed fiscal year 25 um of the mil 325,000 um from the previous um slide uh made up of the um projects uh reflected here on um this slide um in front of you and our next Enterprise fund is the uh Cave Creek Water uh system fund fund and Cave Creek Water um is starts the um starts fiscal year 25 with a um beginning fund balance of a million 336 541 we have um proposed operating revenues of 6,837 37 um estimated operating expenses including Debt Service of 5,921 195 uh which leaves Cave Creek water with um positive net operations of 91684 um the next section of is the one-time sources and uses for Cave Creek Water we have transfers in of showing a 5, 85,681 158 is a transfer in from the general fund and 3, 80774 is the transfer into Cave Creek water from the water infrastructure fund we have Grant Pro proceeds reflected of the 2 million 250,000 which represents the 2 million from the um congressionally directed spending Grant um Senator Mark Kelly Grant and 250,000 from the water smart grants that the um town has received 140,000 in interest income and our Capital um expenditure uses of 8,392 748 um which leaves our um net one time in the negative 96,4 uh which leaves the net result uh for Cave Creek water at zero but with an ending fund balance of the million 136 541 which is the amount necessary um to be held in Cave Creek Water to cover the um witho reserves for that fund the next slide is the um represents the Cave Creek Water Capital initiatives that are proposed for fiscal year 25 um you'll see um the Phoenix interconnect um is listed on there twice on the first line and then on um the second to the last line there um with the an additional 7, 8877 1887 um coming from our with alone so those two lines together represent the total amount spent for Phoenix interconnect or proposed to be spent for Phoenix interconnect for fiscal year 25 um but the grand total of Cave Creek Water Capital with the our wifa um proceeds um being spent down is 16,280 535 and our last um Enterprise fund is our Desert Hills uh water system Desert Hills had a um beginning fiscal year 25 uh fund balance of $36,800 or estimating operating revenues coming in at 4,525 1200 um we have operating expenditures proposed at 3 million operating expenditures plus Debt Service proposed at 3,5 99,5 47 uh leaving Desert Hills um in the um in the positive 925,000 um as their net operations um the next section is the one-time um uses and uh sources section we have um a small amount of interest income shown of uh 20,000 um a little bit of a contingency in there for 12941 and capital expenditures of 712 um leaving net one time um negative 9 125,340 balance but with an ending fund balance um starting with what they had with the 36802 two which is not enough um to cover the 46659 that they have um set aside to cover for the whiffer reserve so it leaves the unassigned fund balance for Desert Hills water at a negative 42 9,789 the next slide shows the fiscal year 25 proposed um Capital initiative for the Desert Hills Water fund of uh the total capital of the 93272 made up of the um projects that are displayed there um on the slide the next slide is a um debt overview slide um for our uh utility uh funds which are the only funds that we um currently hold debt in um the First Column there shows our original alone loan amounts that were made when the debt was issued um for the three utility funds um the total is66 m772 th000 our um principal outstanding of those loan amounts um as of July 1st of 2024 um the total is the 6,719 127 so we've made great progress in paying our debt um down on these utility funds over the years the last column um shows the uh payoff dates um for each Utility Fund uh with the first being Desert Hills in um the last payment being made July 1st of 2028 Wastewater 29 and uh Cave Creek Water of 2030 um with a small uh note or a big note um asterisk there that the um amounts for Cave Creek Water that are reflected there do not include the um new 13,190 um in the wi alone for the Phoenix interconnect project as of this time because we've not spent any um proceeds down on that yet so we don't have those um those numbers to reflect in there so in front of you tonight is the um motion um to adopt um the tenative budget uh the first um bullet point on the on this slide um is a uh reminder that the tenative budget caps the total expenditures for the town for fiscal year 20 2425 so um what that means is after the tenative budget is adopted tonight the amount cannot be um increased it could be reduced and or switched between um buckets but um that amount cannot be increased once adopted um and the motion to adopt the tenative budget for the town of Cave Creek for fiscal year 2425 um is in the um proposed amount of m393 797 and the final slide is just the next step in our um fiscal year budget process and that is on Monday June 30th of I'm sorry on Monday June 3rd of 2024 um there will be a public hearing and Adoption of the fiscal year 2425 um final budget and um a um adoption of our um official auditor general budget forms by resolution and final slide is any questions T budget thank you I I'll put this into a question okay is it true that our budget means that's the maximum we can spend it's not what we will expend it just means we can go up to that point we cannot exceed that point but it is very likely based upon a pro the past practice we don't spend as much as we budget that is correct councilman Maguire thank you for um stating that and pointing that out other other questions from Council um I I just want to point one thing out is if you want to look at the bottom line number which is the general fund balance it is decreasing this year uh we have an excess of money we have a lot of money there and so the decisions were made as we went along to spend that on getting the roads up to speed there's three million of uh of Road expenses what spent 500,000 600,000 in the past and we got way behind so that's a catchup it's a one time so it's not to be repeated we'll we'll hopefully stay current after right the council I think said they want to do that over the next three years and do some catchup right uh the second thing is we have the fire department the fire building the the truck the the the startup cost the one-time startup cost we also made a decision to take that out of our reserves that is a non-recurring expense so uh uh that's what brings that down the important point there is we're not using our savings account to pay for any of uh ongoing expenses it's only being used for to purchase Capital expenses that are for the good of the Town correct yeah that is true and those two projects were shown on that uh general fund Capital initiative page but yes you are correct those are coming out of our um fund balance Reserve okay uh we have a public comment on this if there are no further questions mayor Jim grub my hooked up yes I am thank you very much um Jim grub 6501 East Loon Mountain Road North Cave Creek couple comments on this budget U some people seem to think that sales tax revenues are going to be a major factor in our present and future that's just not true uh 7 million plus in that budget comes from the uh general fund uh uh sales tax revenues that's about 133% of that budget what's it take to get much more uh in sales tax without increasing taxes well for every $100 million in increased commercial activity in our town core we get $3 million that's 5% of that $57 million so sales tax revenues just aren't going to be a major player they're important player but not a major player in our future we can't touch a hundred million worth of increased commercial activity in our town that would we can't do it it's Out Of Reach so uh another Point uh I'm looking at the uh the long-term capital Improvement program for water and wastewater well the number on that is around 39 million okay what's that going to do to our water rates we don't know because we can't know we can't know because we don't have any longterm financial planning for water and wastewater the way you do that is if you got a long-term fincial plan you can plug in your your capital investment numbers into that and that'll tell you what's going to happen to your water rates we don't have one of those and it would be really nice to do that to know how water rats are going to be affected before we spend the money okay uh the other point I want to want to hit on is the the spur cross um oh excuse me another I missed my point uh we subsidize water and waste water and we have all along I look back at the numbers from 201819 to uh 20 2223 how much did we really I had a hard time finding it because it's varied in the statements but at the end of the year audited statements we spent uh tax money uh subsidizing of $24.8 million for that 5year period we just keep subsidizing and subsidizing it just has never ended it's been in a history and a a way of life it seems like in K Creek to subsidize with large amounts of Stack funds we're that's what we're doing now um uh and no long-term plan to cut it out oh well so let's talk about the spur cross fund a little bit uh the numbers on the spur cross fund going back through 1819 through uh the current one uh about 10 10 plus million dollar have or will be coming into the spur cross fund 7 plus million will be taken out 85% this current budget takes out 89% of that fund as written in the budget we get about 1.9 million in there and we'll be taking about 1.7 million out again a lot of people really believe and I help them find out how the big numbers are that we shouldn't be doing this that that has gone against basic value of our community about preservation that we should get back to preservation we should get back to our fundamentals and restore that fund and use it as it was initially intended for preservation so my final comment on this this budget and the 56 million.

five last year is sustainable but I see in the future as an economist and a and a and a financial advisor what's ahead down the road it's going to be a while some mix of significant water rate increases significant Wastewater rate increases potential tax increases and certainly uh government fee increases that's what I see ahead and I'll be making my case to the uh to the voters to uh we can have both A reduced budget and better uh and and the use of this fund with a much more effective financial management than I am seeing right now so that's my case thank you very much thank you no further requests mayor okay we have no request so we're ready for a motion on the uh on the budget anybody want to make it I will make it Council discussion possible adoption uh excuse me a motion to adopt the town of Cate Creek fiscal year 2024 d225 tenative budget in the amount of 57,59 3,797 second okay I I had the uh I had the motion hernie you take it yeah since I'm not going I'm short Tim U you know the reason that we have a tremendous amount of money in the bank is because the budgets over the years for the last since we came out of the Great Recession have been very conservative uh as far as the uh expenditures that we looked at uh we've got a tremendous amount of money in the bank um I've always said that if we wanted a 737 although I don't think we should get a Max we could put it in the budget with no intention of buying it but the money would be there in case in case it came in and we needed to spend it for some reason or another um in order to to see how we came up with the the savings that we currently have you go back and look through the caers over the years and we have spent substantially less and uh that put us in a position to be able to afford the the upgrades that we're that we're making U to the roads and everything else that we're doing in this budget I wholeheartly support it um I'll give my comments as the motion maker and that is this is a responsible budget uh the same comments last year with the $56 million budget this is a $57 million budget and we've increased spending on fire we've increased it on on roads and we're building a water interconnect project with which this town needs to even survive so uh we're solving problems with this budget it's not being frittered into the sky it it's being used to make this a better place to live and to be able to afford things like open space so uh I'm I'm certainly going to support it other comments from the left yeah um and my goodies on here we're good to go um what what pleases me about this budget is that um you can actually follow our our planning follow our spending back through our strategic plan and to the issues in our general plan and I I know the staff worked on that and I really appreciate it it makes sense thank you anyone else down here Tom M there there is a process that we go through that's very important it starts out with a lot of discussions listening to the people in the community discussions among ourselves we don't always agree with one another and hopefully that allows us to come to a point that the citizens get something better than they would have had otherwise but I think the way that the council has worked we' listened to the citizens this has been very successful I also see a lot of expertise with me on this Council I've been on the council for quite a number of years and I've seen the way that the council operations have changed they have matured and that's something I think Ernie has seen also and so I think that's reflected in the way that we're moving forward we're making very valid planning and I'm really pleased with it um I just wanted to say that in addition to all the huge items that are in this budget fire related water related roads related we have money that we haven't had in the past for people and I think that that is a significant thing to mention um and I'm so glad that we've created this new general fund because it's easy to find where we're investing in people um first of all we have our 40,000 in Community grants we did not increase that we did not I did not think that that was necessary I think we wisely our new committee for um approving grants was very conservative but yet we reached 12 different organizations this year and we're very proud of of that program and it will continue in that amount we added $10,000 for volunteer recognition because this town really relies on volunteers at the tourism Bureau on all of our commissions and committees um and it's time that we recognize all the people who give their time freely to this community we're finally going to have some money associated with holiday celebrations which we've never had other cities go to Great Lengths to celebrate the holidays Fourth of July Halloween Christmas Hanukah whatever it may be we're finally um allocating some resources to um enjoy the holidays with each other in this community um we have $7,500 for Employee Appreciation thankfully we can recognize our employees on our town staff in a in a very valuable way um hopefully a nice luncheon with some recognition for all their hard work so my point is you know it gets buried in the big number but we've targeted some money to really appreciate people because that's who does all this work and so thank you for supporting this budget it's really important to us all El so I think I think the uh the entire budget process year this year was much much smoother than last year and I support this budget not because I like everything in it and I don't think there's anybody up here that likes everything in it but we followed the process we saw the totality we saw the individual pieces we can tie it back to a a oent strategic plan and probably for the first time in history we have budgeting software that allows us to see that end to end picture so I want to thank Mitzy for doing that because that's a herculian task and I just think that that uh this is a light years's improvement over previous year's budget so I want to thank you for that uh with that this is seeing no further comments one last one I forgot I didn't get to mention that for the first time we have funds allocated to The Cave Creek Museum and uh welld deserved for taking over the local landmarks program and other things that they do on behalf of this town congratulations and before we vote I want to add bsy you're about to say something I just wanted to um also recognize thank you for the um comments council member rhods but I also wanted recognize Bridget she um has been here in my absence and um has done a ton of work with regard to the budget so thank you bridg thank you thank you bridg um I'd like to recognize all staff because this this was a really a a tough year for the budget with the changes in budgeting software uh the it it it it was a it was a real Challenge and I think this the entire staff all the numbers of course roll up and then they all that stuff lands in the finance department to make sense out of so uh congratulations to everybody for all your hard work and the success I think we're going to get a vote here we'll see so with that let's have a roll call please council member augeron hi council member Bunch yes council member Ela yes council member Maguire yes council member Rose I vice mayor Roy yes mayor Morris I motion passes 70 so we have a maximum expenditure limit um the next on the agenda is a council discussion approval of an agreement with Baker Tilly us LLP for the uh fiscal year 2024 audit for an amount up to $49,000 with options to renew for two fiscal years presented by the town manager and finance director thank you mayor mayor council um the item before you as you mentioned is for um auditing Services current firm right now is Baker Tilly um the under our interim Finance directory solicited um uh proposals from three different firms and Baker Tilly came in the lowest again this is a professional service it does not require us to go and do a competitive um process however I thought it was important to do so we can get the lowest price um we're recommending um that the council approve the audit services with Baker Tilly for next fiscal year it is a multi-year so we don't have to come back to the council um for three years so this actually saves a lot of time and effort going off and kind of doing um soliciting for um proposals with that I'd be happy to answered in questions the mayor and Council may have oh one other point I wanted to make sure that the council knew this is not changing anything that we are doing with our current uh Council audit committee so the um the firm will be working with the audit committee um before coming back and doing their their actual services for the town so thank you uh questions uh there is public comment no request to speak mayor okay we're looking for a motion oh make it motion to approve an agreement with Baker Tilly us LLP for the FY 2024 audit for an amount up to $49,000 with options to renew for two fiscal years second um you had the Motion makes sense and I'm glad they're doing it for three years I I second that others other comments okay uh this is fiscal council member Bunch yes council member elus yes council member McGuire yes council member Rose I council member augeron I vice mayor Roy yes mayor Morris I motion passes 70 and next on here is a oh this is one I've been looking forward to council consideration of first reading of ordinance number um 0224 d03 an ordinance of the mayor and Council of the town of cap Creek Maricopa County Arizona amending the town of Cave Creek Z ordinance chapter 12 entitled site plans section 12.2 entitled procedures subsection a with either option a council directed consideration or option b recommended by Planning Commission presented by senior planner and there they are thank you mayor members of council um I senior planner is on there he he will be presenting uh should Council Pro proceed with this uh first reading this evening he'll be presenting second reading as as I will be in Australia so uh that's he'll be here next time um we good hands at any yeah you are here um at any rate uh this was born out of a uh site plan case that when before the Planning Commission earlier this year uh the chairman did not uh allow for public comment at that meeting uh there was concern mentioned to the council when the site plan case came before the council um that that uh they would have liked the opportunity to address the Planning Commission um in March the town manager um brought forward a um a request to get Council direction to proceed with an ordinance text Amendment uh staff did that in April uh last month the Planning Commission recommended denial of the text Amendment which would require a uh public open house be taken prior to a case proceeding to the Planning Commission uh in lie of that the Planning Commission uh did recommend that uh the chapter 12 of the zoning ordinance be amended to require that the Planning Commission uh take public comment for site plan cases so that was the the text Amendment they proposed as option b what you have in front of you is option A as I stated um and is in your packet on page uh 251 of 362 is the option where an open house would be required and then just after that option b is on 253 of three 62 uh which is what the commission recommended that would um permit the public comment for the Planning Commission in in lie of the other text amendment that would require the open house uh with that I may defer to legal councel but if if Council has any questions at this time I'd be happy to answer questions I thought we were gave pretty specific guidance on option A I didn't think we asked for option b and I'm trying to figure out why we even have an option b here the uh Planning Commission is an advising um body to the town and they are able to propose and make recommendations hunting a problem that they refused to accept now they want to accept it I think we need to go with the other with the option A I agree not necessarily for that reason I actually think that they had right to offer an option and um we have a right not to accept it I think that um some of their arguments were that it takes U more staff time could delay the approval process and while that may be true uh the voice of the people is more important than all of that and so I think that we should have an open house and I think our town manager was the one who frankly was the one who suggested it I may be wrong but I know he's in favor of it despite the fact that it may require more staff to so I I like optioning and I hope that we go along this is questions rather than discussion uh yeah we're we're really in the question Yeah question I agree with you Mr SS how many the the uh municipalities that you represent actually go through this let's first answer the procedural question it is it is not inappropriate for the body charged with making recommendations regarding his zoning ordinance to have a recommendation so the fact that the commission made a recommendation is not inappropriate but the vice mayor said it correctly it's your decision and this is your decision this is a policy decision I for for the risk poool we have 77 cities I do land use you would be the only one I know that do this but you are a very unique Community but I just want to caution You by going down this path you're going to have to make sure that whatever notices that would occur at the commission occur at the at the open meeting level otherwise you'll deny due process secondly this is a an administrative act once an applicant satisfies the administrative requirements you have a duty to approve now that doesn't mean you shouldn't have and vice mayor you asked me a question about six months ago that doesn't mean that you either you or the commission whomever makes this decision doesn't have the opportunity to be guided by public input that's what this would occur I think we're here because the the Planning Commission unwisely denied public comment and you all reacted you have the right to do this but it will require two sets of notices and it doesn't change the administrative requirements as this as this is applied you have the right as legislators in terms of passing the the zoning ordinance to impose requirements which which then create the administrative standards that are measured that's where you have the right to do almost anything as long as it's not completely arbitrary and capricious here when you're enforcing an administrative requirement you have to follow the rules this will be three steps it'll be at the at the at the open house and there has to be all the same notices as at the commission at the commission and if need be if you disagree with the commission at at this Council but as I said I'm the town attorney for nine towns you are the most unique and you do bend over backwards to for public input that's what you're doing because none of my other 77 do this 77 there's only what 90 towns in Arizona and you that's more honestly the larger Juris the larger jurisdictions um actually delegated to staff because they they want staff to make the decision and because it is Administrative and they want the they want the person's most first in the administrative requirements to make the decision the larger jurisdictions don't do this they they delegate it to staff uh Council uh does is is the Planning Commission do we need to tell them to um option b do we need to tell them to have public comment or can they do that on their own that's required by doing this you would prevent what happened this this says they have to provide it they took the position wrongly I believe not allowing which is why we're here um so the option b is public comment will be allowed fact I would probably strike that to be shall be allowed but but but honestly we don't get to make that you get to decide we don't I'm just giving you the context yeah yeah but but they could have done it on their own that that's what I'm trying to see yes sir it they chose the option of not having public comment we wouldn't be here if they had chosen the object to have public comment is that what I'm hearing correct um I we have I I I I want to defend Mr breckner and the Planning Commission because I think they listened to us they listened that this is generally an administrative procedure you don't have to listen to the public and so I think he was trying to take direction from us that he didn't have to listen to the public and it wasn't a good interpretation of what we had said maybe it was what we said but I think he really was trying to conform to what other communities are doing and to what made the most sense and unfortunately he inherited the wind uh other other questions other after you get done I Cynthia is in the room and she was in for that I'd like to have her come up at some point but go ahead with your question well my question is our request was um to include a new item where an informal open house meeting shall be held by the town staff okay that was our request for this work to be done and I don't think that there's any intent on any of us to to circumvent the ordinance it's a good ordinance it it asks applicants to pay attention and there are boxes to be checked to make sure that that happens um but in Cave Creek people love to be heard and it's part of what we do here and our promise in both the general plan and our strategic language is we're going to make a great effort to listen and communicate this is an opportunity to do that that so I really liked option A Cynthia would you approach the deis and and give us the uh the flavor of what's going on mayor Morris and council members thank you Cynthia Driscoll uh Vice chair of the Planning Commission this topic had robust discussion at our last commission meeting uh all of the same items that were been brought up in discussion today um across the board the commission felt that the site review plan is Administrative in nature and reinforce that opinion and felt that it could be something that's handled at the staff level as opposed to um to the current ordinance uh however there was a split vote across the board on both option A and option b I think was the full commission supported um we understand that the issue did come to council uh because the chair had opted not to have public comment on a site review plan um and that's what put this uh ball in motion uh we feel like uh to correct that uh the option would be to State clearly in the ordinance going forward that the Planning Commission will allow public comment on site review plans as long as that site review plan remains under the purview of the Planning Commission I have a question so the applicant would be at this plan commission meeting where the questions would be taken uh they have at most of them but um they are not required I think to be there so that begs the question how would um a resident's question of the applicant be appropriately answered if the applicant wasn't in the room uh those questions would most likely be directed towards staff right so there's a gap there as far as I can see well corre correct me if I'm wrong uh Mr Sims but in the course of a meeting it's Robert's Rules of Order so there really isn't a dialogue uh between an applicant and the public uh generally any dialogue would be during an applicant's presentation to the board or body it's presenting to um but generally speaking if if neighbors or residents that obtain notice and notification of of upcoming development and site plan review cases it's it's really I can't stress enough staffs and in most cases the applicants contact information information is Laden throughout those uh those notices that go out so there is a ample informality to contact staff or an applicant and have a conversation about um what they intend to develop on their property other questions I I think uh there's a misconception among some people in town that Luke or our staff is working for the developer that is not true those people our staff is working for us when people come in and they talk to Luke Luke will represent the interests of the town in working with these people he is an important intermediary to allow the developer to make the best development that satisfies his needs and the needs of the community but Luke does not work for the developers he works for the people and it's people better understand that maybe they would be more willing to come in and ask of Staff questions that needed to be asked that's where it can be dealt with most readily and uh I'm very conscious of what council Mr Sims has cautioned us that if we go for option A we may be looking at some really difficult issues I think we we got caught in the middle of trying to move towards something that truly was an administrative function is in other towns and we can do that and still have people be able to express their opinions we can encourage their opinions and make it work work much more smoothly so I think adding the extra steps in here I'm afraid that can get us into trouble you something else yeah thank you Cynthia uh other other comments okay so we are ready for a no public comment I guess no comment okay uh so we're ready for a motion so I'll make the motion because I was the one that I believe Katherine and I were the two that that commented on it uh motion to approve first reading ordinance 02243 an ordinance of the mayor and Council of the town of Cave Creek marup County Arizona amending the town of Cave Creek zoning ordinance chapter 12 and entitled site plan section 12.2 entitled procedure subsection a by including a new item wherein it informal openhouse meeting shall be made or shall be held by the town staff with the applicant in attendance prior to going before the Planning Commission establishing an effective date and providing for repeal and severability second Dusty you had the motion so your comment the Gap exists with option b uh even if they allow that the person who's doing the development isn't going to doesn't have to attend the meeting with option A the developer needs to show up to the meeting and I I think that's the only legitimate way we're going to get that dialogue between our citizens and the developers and I do believe that that is what most of the people in the town are in favor of and yes it will be an administrative burden the second I just think um it's really important for us to project um our our faith and trust in the public process um and we have not done that sufficiently and that's why we're here and so we what we need to do is correct that perception that we don't think the voices of our residents are important enough and and I think that we do at this level perhaps um but the plan commission is all business and I respect that they're here to do a job and to check the boxes and especially with the site plan because there's not a lot of wiggle room there and so we we will absolutely need to make clear that uh of the parameters of this openhouse uh what we can do and what we can't do and that can be done because people are not stupid um and so I'm in favor of having a one meeting with uh FaceTime with the applicant and the residents who are interested in his new or her new business I don't think that hurts anything we may be one of 90 but we're proud of that and u and maybe they'll follow our path in the future when they see how well it works other I sort of had a question more than a comment so tell me if if I'm interpreting this correctly under option A there is the openhouse and then it goes on to PNC but the PNC is still required to have a public hearing yes and then under B it's the public hearing so the only and they are required to hold the public hearing still okay so the only substantial difference is it's an open house if an applicant wants to appear with the community and more of the informal setting and so forth the only reason I asked a question I want to make sure what I'm voting on is that some people have felt this was to replace the requirement by the planning ofon to have a meeting and they thought they were being shuffled off to Buffalo basically for the open house so really the only difference is an additional opportunity if the applicant and or the neighborhood chooses to available itself and then nobody can argue that the planning cons zoning hasn't already been amended by this motion right did I get that right I think so okay okay I'm just I you know just want make sure okay thank you Mr Mayor we're good Tom any comments um no I I think I made the comment that I did man we're going to have to call for a roll call on this one I can guarantee you um my concern is those who ignore history are doomed to repeat it and what this does is is by allowing the public to be involved in this it sets unreal unrealistic expectations of our ability to stray from our existing ordinances and Zoning um elected officials are maybe not elected officials politicians have a have a predisposition to bending to the will of the people even though it's not in the best interest of the overall organ organization I think that this is ill advised from from my perspective it should be administrative it should be sitting at the level of the staff um if it's allowed in the zoning and the ordinances then there's nothing that we can do I I can go back to to your history Mr augeron uh councilman um when councilman augeron was was mayor of the town of cave Creek and he did not participate in the meeting based on the records that I've seen he and the vice mayor did not show up the council had a meeting with five people took it upon themselves to to uh approve a site plan that they had drawn up themselves and at the end of that proc procedure the um uh Superior Court said will the defendant please rise which was someone from the town of Cave Creek who uh we ultimately got to write a check for $1.2 million we're setting ourselves up for failure and for and for losses I've worked really hard in trying to keep us out of court courtrooms since I've been on this Council been one of my major goals and I think that this is an ill-advised move so I I'm vly opposed to this this action um these are my comments first of all the legislature is going to solve this for us they we came within a veto of having this Jam down our neck where you have to Boom throw it out along with many many many other uh uh brutal changes to to our ability to Zone and to plan the town um we're probably going to have a new legislature maybe a veto proof legislature and um uh we're headed the wrong direction here on a couple of issues one is extending the time there is I mean now we've got three meetings to deal with um and the the Planning Commission discussion which I read and reread and reread and reread and I'm still not sure understand everything uh was they were trying to to solve this and I think they saw it they saw the the multiple meetings I mean now we're going to have three meetings when you can't do anything at any of them so the the overall inefficiency I'm just struck by how inefficient is I don't like either of these proposals when I look at the cost that you put out there we get 25 2,000 bucks maybe and it's costing us $5,000 in staff time and things I don't think any of these uh work um I put down the sort of things that I would want to see in this uh code for me to support it one is uh it's administrative so lower the town cost so we didn't the town staff didn't support three different meetings with all the agenda items and admin go with that a faster approval and like I say the legislature is probably going to take that uh away from us frankly uh at some point I don't know when but um uh so I we do need public comment we absolutely have to have public comment but I think that ought to be directed towards ID identifying um site plan issues that need to be changed because there is no other productive use of that other than oh G whiz we've got a problem here with the way we're doing site plans so we need to change the code I mean I I think that's where that'll go but I uh I I just see all these problems with this and the oall inefficiency brought out by the Planning Commission minutes so I have changed my mind and I will be against either option when they when they come up the B is a better of the two because it's more efficient in my view and it getss public it but uh I'm I'm going to vote against both of them and is there a way that we could come back with option C I'm serious I mean can somebody be creative and try and resolve this that that that we can all approve follow the other 76 communities and let staff do it right well staff staff it's our do it but the commission didn't allow it and so that's why here it's it's our ordinances that they're that they're U maintaining the Fidelity to when they deal with these people so if we got a problem with our ordinances then we ought ought to fix those if there's an issue so Mr may there's a motion on the floor yeah so yeah you're calling the vote and that's that's completely appropriate so uh we have a motion on the floor it's option A and uh I think we should do a roll call just to start council member elama let me hear the motion again was option a option a option A to have an extra meeting then I'm going to vote Yes we need to hear the people council member Maguire I agree we need to hear the people but I'm voting no council member rhs I council member augeron I council member Bunch no vice mayor Roy believe it or not I'm going to vote no because I think that we can do better I think that we can come up with another option C that we could all live with mayor Morris no so motion fails and uh the town manager just had a melt [Laughter] down I can try to be of help but is there more discussion or is that a final vote or that's the final vote yeah but if you have some I'm sure they're G be looking for ideas right now it's we're um someone can still bring a motion back to try to do a third option with the failure of a is that correct I'm sorry if the motion failed can a subse motion or successive yeah yeah yeah it's on the agenda so you can do that okay well let's just try that for a second um here's the problem we're the problem because we're the council that approved the people on the planning and sing commission I was a no vote on the chair he had enough votes to get back on so we own the people that have been appointed with the Planning and Zoning commission the problem is not with the ordinance the problem is with the appointments and we have an arrogant Planning and Zoning commissioner who decided not to take that would be one I'm gonna ask you okay that would be one opinion yeah I we need to keep this personated by the council except for the original appointments that we made so to go back to a third option which the vice chair suggested maybe worthy of looking and now you have to because it failed but the problem was at theing commission by the way the public was treated so this is overkill which some have said it is at least there's a request to do something new that would make sense to still provide the inability for the Planning and Zoning commission chair or any vote by that committee commission to say no we're not going to hear from the public so let's put the blame where it belongs which is on us unfortunately we as a body approved that individual to come back and he was reappointed as the chair so either we can do better on appointments or we can do better on communicating with the commission to tell them the ethic of what the public is expecting so I would like to respond I I truly think that uh you know with I appreciate what you have to say councilman alerton that we all have different styles of working with things but I think that Mr Breer was looking at our idea that you know this should be administrative his interpretation was let's make it more administrative in so doing people feel felt that they'd been cut off I that's really very unfortunate but I think he was really working on discussion from us so I I I I feel he really was trying to do the right thing and it just didn't work out why would an option b why couldn't we go back for a vote on well we we can't but somebody needs to make a motion here is is there I guess we can have discussion but is there a motion that you'd like to make well Mr Mayor if you're asking for a motion to go with option b and if we have the certainty that the requirement by the Planning and Zoning commission is going to require a hearing whether or not the chair wants to do so which is has it's always been or restoring it back to0 zero and if there's no support for option A I would move option b yeah are you moving option yes I'd like to if you're gonna do that change it from uh by allowing to shall yes have public comment which which page is that on Dusty it's on the bottom option b where it says section 12.2 Fifth Line down entitled procedures subsection a by allowing public comment instead of saying by allowing public comment shall have public comment shall allow allow comment yes I don't understand what that in other words line it would mean that in the the Planning Commission would have to listen to what people have to say which is what they were doing for many years council member Aug do do you accept that motion you do okay so is there a second to the amended motion motion any discussion well you had it uh did you either you two want to make a statement on your motion no sir okay anyone else want to say anything I I I want to say something and I just want to reinforce the people when I hope that the public will go to those who can help them the most and our staff are people who can give them the greatest service help them the most they are our experts they can also come to us at the end of the process but the services the expertise we've got on staff I hope that more people will go to them and understand how they can have a greater influence by dealing through staff and that staff works for them they don't work for the device comments can I ask a question of the yeah sure go ahead Mr Sims what are the other the other municipalities that you represent do in the with it's administra do they have a a methodology for informing the public more about what's going on or is or is they just of of my nine generally small they none delegate administratively we all do it at the commission and but large I think but Luke Luke has done lots of research and it's roughly 5050 between some who do administrative and some who don't I've been with you guys for years I I I don't see you as being ones who would delegated to staff um I was careful on what I said I said it's your call but I do know that my other jurisdictions the law is Title Nine that's why you have a Planning and Zoning commission to do just this and there's this precise rules concerning the notice they give and the public has the right and Luke read a good point it doesn't it doesn't invite a spat between the applicant and and and and the constituents it has to go through Robert's Rules so that the so that the board so that the commission can can can decide it I agree with council member augeron I can sorry council member McGuire I can see why the the commission chair did what he did he was of the view this is Administrative therefore we shouldn't we we shouldn't take any input and I can remember this happened the vice mayor asked me and I said the reason input might be a good idea is to inform you as you're measuring whether or not theyve met the objective criteria and that actually that actually has a strong Democratic component but it's leavened by the point that the the council member Ernie talked about is the more you sort of suggest to the public they have the right to reject an objective standard the more you invite litigation and I know the on you're talking about because I was the RIS pool we paid two million bucks and for you guys because you made you you tried to impose something that should have been administrative this has been an encouraging conversation what I'm hearing is you understand the need for public comment I I I I think your staff was I think recommending it should be administrative you have the right to say no I think to have a third a third element does is that it is unique and I was honest when I told you of my nine or eight you are the most unique and if anybody were to do it you'd be the ones but it does create cost it does create the tension between having to tell the public what the standards are one benefit of having the staff do it is they're the bad guys you create the standards legislatively you create the objective criteria they measure it and they tell the they tell the community it's not you the community says to you then change the rules back that's how this could be done but tonight what I'm hearing is you may go with option b option b will will invite conver discussion but it won't be discussion between the applicant and and and the constituents the conion will be the discussion will be leavened by Robert's Rules but much like the mayor does here and it'll Force the discussion to go through the chair if you decide to go with option b okay uh the last last comment I um we may disagree on we we may have been on opposite sides on appointing uh the particular commission and and that's Democratic process but I I I just want to say that the people on the Planning Commission put in a tremendous amount of time effort and energy volunteers as many of us in this room are and uh uh I I have uh respect and support for the chair and uh as as all all the Commissioners I think we've got a Great Commission myself so I I I just don't want to leave the meeting here with uh without recognizing that we have differences of opinion on that and those that I want to speak up to express my support so so we have a motion for so let's uh let's uh we have a motion then on the table and all the comments have been here and the word um will is uh struck and the word shall uh for option b shall allow shall allow and subsection a it's line six subsection a shall allow public comment okay you want me to read the whole thing actually if I may because and on page 278 uh of your packet is the actual uh text from chapter 12 um number seven would be amended it's in blue line here it says public comment will be allowed um strike the will and put in shall would be the substitute that would come back to you for second reading if this were adopted but the motion still has to say instead of by allowing would say shall allow right so let me go ahead and read it motion to approve first reading of ordinance 0224 d03 an ordinance of the mayor and the Council of the town of Cave Creek Mar Maricopa County Arizona amending the town of Cave Creek zoning ordinance chapter 12 entitled site plan section 12.2 entitled procedures subsection subsection a shall allow public comment for site plan cases establishing an effective date and providing for repeal and severability second excellent any any further comment I think we're all talked out yly I think we need to reiterate that we're going to need to communicate very well with the people in the audience what what they're allowed what what the whole point is of this exercise and what we can and we cannot do with their their words should I try this passes we're missing opportunity to streamline and make smaller government well we we can still do that but at least we get let go we stop the bleeding maybe way to think of it you still need a roll call yeah let's have a roll call then council member Maguire yes council member rhs hi council member augeron hi council member Bunch no council member ala yes Council vice mayor Roy yes mayor Morris I motion passes six to one we're my first time and we're on to number four Council discussion acceptance of a deed of gift from Scott Wells for a non-motorized trail easement on APM 26-14 Z6 located 7 730 East Lone Mountain Road Cave Creek Arizona presented by development services director Mr Mayor yes sir before we start um I'd like to I won't but I'd like to make a motion to table this into another meeting we've got the committee the trails committee appointed and about to begin work and um we're going to be hopefully getting a map of current uh dedications in the community and this is the one we talked about at a meeting a couple of times back where it looks routine but empties into a wash although let me ask a question I guess but uh why would we do this before the trails committee it's not a part of their assignment they're they they have one very narrow assignment and that correct me I'm wrong but that's Morning Star well it's to look at Morning Star and then other alternatives to Morning Star this is this is no I I I know I'm just giving you your answer that you asked yeah yeah um I I'd like to get the the business done tonight if we can so uh can we answer those questions uh mayor so this this was continued from uh February 20th agenda I believe uh the it was on the consent agenda the uh Council pulled it um after a series of questions um Direction was given to staff to provide a map if you on page 286 of of your packet 362 um we've got the map of adjacent dedications that tie into this one uh the subject property is 7030 East loone Mountain um really this was dedicated back in 2006 unfortunately the the trail easement itself was the West 10 ft of the property line the trail itself Falls outside of that so this is just a restatement of a of an already dedicated easen um and it does connect to adjacent properties on either side of it um we actually contacted the the property owner to see if they would be available tonight uh to answer any questions they were under the impression that this was already done um and the the surveyor is here um I to right that slightly A step above a developer the uh the scorge you know each other uh so this is this is really in its Essence a a housekeeping item it's not a it's not a new Trail easement it's not a new Trail there's nothing involved uh budgetarily moving forward this is just taking um where the easement describes the trail should be and putting it where the trail is can I just ask a question you can or you can make a motion you can make I didn't want uh so my only question is is this a dedicated Trail it is not the pece connecting that no the wash is currently not dedicated well last meeting we had a question just about if the trail dedication is accepted by the town what happens from that point onward it's already been accepted by the town this is just moving it to where the the trail is the trail is what do people do when they come to the end of the easement and they approach this wash the trail the trail doesn't continue pass that point is that correct it it continues past this property okay that's what I'm trying to figure out I had problem last time as you'll recall with the map on the wall is this all dedicated um please go to this page like I said two right the word say connect which is right here this is the subject property this is the trail okay where does this where does this go to there that's that's where it ends okay is this dedicated I'm sorry to be beli this I'm trying to figure out the wash is dedicated because if it's not it's a dead a dead end Trail currently yes it is depending on which way you're going it it is not a legally dedicated the other way so it's connecting to a wash which is not part of the public trail system in the community and we're adding this last little piece right here before I come yeah yes I understand that all right I'll let it go but you see the point this is not we haven't communicated anymore since the last meeting this issue was been up we're taking a public dedication and we're continuing it up to other people's private property into a wash which is not publicly dedicated if that seems reasonable to others here then I definitely will stand out can can we haven't solved anything can I say something sure go ahead you came listen to all the other stuff for just a second Jim Lis mayor and coun members um I I this all came up because of me so um I was doing a site plan back in October of and I've noticed that the warranty deed was incorrect because it it actually accepted out the the actual uh easement so it actually as if the town owns that property so when we did our deed uh they it accepted out the well at the East bent which means the town owns that strip so I was just trying to clean it up as my duty just uh to the owner because it was like it was not part of his property anymore so when they created when that first deed was created they they were trying to make it an easement and they actual deed the land over to that entity I'm sorry I didn't I kind of explained that to Bambi and I think I explained that to you so that's the main reason why this is even done does the owner want this done to to clean up his his property well no because there's a strip going through the owner's property that was not was that the town owned I mean just by feet so we were just trying and but I think it was an accident when it happened I don't think that was the intention when the de was created it should have been just an easement because we do these all the time so that's what I was trying to basically just clean up so Jim wouldn't we have to abandon that piece of property correct so why don't we put the abandon the previous piece of property in with this was it legal you're abandoning an easement you're not aband AB you're AB you need to abandon the property that we took correct so it need it needs to change to do that isn't that what you're doing yes that's exactly what we're doing yes yeah that's exactly what you're doing page 281 the fourth gr third oh I see yeah Luke don't we have other washes that end other trails that just end and people turn around and go back the other way or I mean this is only dead end Trail we have throughout town is it no it is not so so let let me ask a question to councel so it says release of the 2006 easement um does that encount that gives the deed back to the owner correct it transfers the town's interest in what is an incorrectly described e back to the that back to the owner and the owner then grants you a new easement to align with the existing trail that you've already constructed all we're doing is matching what's on the earth with an easement that you now will hold and they abandon the easement that was formerly there that was incorrect I'm not you say fee it's not fee it's an easement it's not so you look on page 281 this has the effect of causing the existing trail that exists on the ground today to match an easement so that they're lying right now you have an easement it's different from a trail and that's what you say goes through the owner that's not what I heard Jim lofa say we own that piece of property we need to give it back you have you've been granted an e no we on the deed it says we own it yeah this is this is bad public this this was their be and well the well be and and it accepts out this land that was conveyed by that East so you just said it conveyed by that East I no I get that but that's but for me for me as a surveyor though except out experim we're trying to fix it fix the trail that exists now to be accepted yes we are trying to do that too we're trying to do a couple things it's it's not a new easement it's just correcting a problem it's win-win yeah it's a correction and it's it's not a new EAS one no let's talk for the question okay yeah let's let's call the question um and uh we can vote and if it doesn't pass that it doesn't pass I'll make the motion you got public comment on this public comment Cynthia did you want to come in I didn't turn in a slip but I've ridden this Trail for 40 years oh uh so I know exactly uh the issue you're talking about uh the past owners of the property always have welcomed horseback Riders yes it does empty into the wash where there's no specific easement but neighbors again welcome horseback Riders there are areas in uh and around uh our private road 70th Street which are not dedicated to the town but again horseback Riders use them so there's a neighborly component to uh correct ement use of easements throughout the town and that's been the history of the Town um when people put up a no trespass sign because they're new to the area or maybe they just don't like coures uh Riders respect that they create a new Trail a lot of these Trails were game Trails that's why they're called Wildcat Trails they were just game Trails coyotes Havalina whatever Deer uh and Riders pick up on them and explore uh so it it's part of cave Creek's history uh and certainly I think uh we should respect the private property owners and get the easement correct on the record uh so that going forward with uh purchase and sell of properties it's no longer an issue thank you okay we've had public comment um I'll make the motion motion to accept the deed of gift from Scott Wells for non-motorized Trail easement on APN 26-14 006 located at 7030 East Lone Mountain Road gab Creek Arizona second um I'm in favor of it this this this is how a trail system gets built I mean we're we're going back and fixing one but if it's we're brand new we do it one parcel at a time and eventually they connect up when when new people move or people are whatever they they give us the give us the ease so this is not anything I'm glad to go back and fix one that we made his mistake in 2006 because I must have voted for it then other comments from Council Tom too okay uh should we try a Voice vote all those in favor say I I opposed motion passes seven okay so we are on there just one comment as we leave this one I'll hurry and that is we just witnessed a voice from the community talked to us about an issue that's really important and it made a difference absolutely Cynthia yes Cynthia she's a she's with us she's planning commissioner she's she's also the voice she's the voice we need to listen to We cutting her a check later thank you Cynthia count discussion approval uh of a Construction contract to Larson Excavating to install a new 6in water line on kahua that that close Place between Sunset Trail and arbuscula drive for amount up to$ 27,578 St mayor and Council um this is a project we have a program in our Capital uh Improvement budget for the Cape Creek Water both Cape Creek Water and Desert Hills Waters to um improve the water system so so in this case uh there's an existing 2-in line on this stretcher Road uh that actually has 10 residents tied off it's actually a dead end 2-in line at this point it's actually not tied in at the uh the western side so it's something that uh since I've been here I've known about it and something we actually want to get out of the system so now that Nick Larson was able to join the town as the deputy director I actually tasked Nick with getting this project done we're towards the end of this fiscal year this is the project that we set aside the money for the $150,000 that was in the CIP um we reached out once the design was done we um reached out to four firms to get bids on this we didn't publicly advertise it State Statute we could actually reach out to firms because of the value of the contract and not do that uh we're a little um we wish we would have got more competitiveness but we actually do believe that that's why we're moving forward with the the bid that we we did receive from Larson excavation which was the only one that received an actual Financial bid we do believe is actually acceptable um for the amount of work involved next slide Brian so um what we're doing is we're placing again a galvanized 2-inch line and if you've been in my office you're sitting behind the desk behind me on the on top of my filing cabinet so I was going to bring it in tonight but the section of this pipe is actually in my office we've had so many brakes on it over the years since I've been here uh it was installed in 1962 it's the recers that we can see and there's again to 10 highlighted properties you can see actually are fed from this line directly so we're looking to add the 6in line uh that would link the system together allow us to get rid of the 6inch line add a fire hydrant to the area and it helps to Loop the water system um so why do we think the bid's acceptable it's just the we're about 850 ft of pipeline that we have to install uh we actually have of the 10 water services uh six of them are what we call longside services where they actually cross the the width of the street um so we have to actually do slurry back fill on those and then uh uh the typical standard for Cave Creek when we actually do a um transverse Crossing is we're supposed to do the the width of the trench which is usually 2 feet and 5T on either side so we'd have six locations where we'd have a a 12T pavement rep patch on this we've actually worked with Al and he's he's agreed to allow us to do more of a typical um what's called a T-top lesser uh extension of that but we're actually at the end of the day we're actually going to do a slurry seal over the entire Road oo so it' be an improvement to the roadway out there as well as a substantial Improvement for the uh customers um and again when we looked at the bids that we uh did receive or the one bid that we did receive we do think it is uh acceptable and respon that's why we're we're coming forward we're not looking to read vertise this project we'd like to do it within this year's Capital uh year because that's actually what we have funding set aside for next year the program monies is actually set aside for a coordination project with um the Tallyho and tandem project we realize there's we uh in the last couple months we actually found there's a section of um 2in waterline on tandem that needs to be replaced so we're coordinating with halin on that project so as he bids that project that that's where our bunnies will go next year so either if we don't do it this year um we to put the money back in fund balance and then we can re-budget for it the following year but i' like council's approval to move forward with this project uh within the bid uh which was $27,000 uh we're asking just to make sure we can complete this work is a a 5% contingency just a little bit of money set aside so that we can make sure in case something does happen we can complete this project so uh talk talking with larsson's excavations they believe they've committed that they can get this done for the uh before the end of our fiscal year June 30th so with that I can answer any question questions Council may have I I don't know if you speak Apache and I assume that's where these names came from but could you please pronounce for us both of those names I'm uncomfortable being up here as a council member and I can't even know how to say the names of my streets well no Sunset actually how about is the other one is Al Abu abusua sorry you're asking the wrong name wrong person to do a pronunciation I just lost my seat other other questions okay uh there is public comment on this no input received mayor okay so we're looking for a motion uh here I'll do it all right fin need something positive from you tonight don't you motion to approve construction a Construction contract to Larson Excavating to install a new 6-in water line on kowana Place between Sunset Trail and arbuscula drive for an amount up to $ 27,578 second okay you had the comment I like I like the fact that it does the looping and I've seen them I've seen the pipe that's in his office it's it's only got about half an inch in a 2-inch pipe about half an inch inside the rust so this is definitely going to make some people happy in that neighborhood and while Larson was the only bidder I'm happy that it's them because they're a local contractor own yeah I think they have I think they have a history in the community just a little good stuff other comments okay um there is public comment to I asked that already no yeah final Financial okay well voice quote then we'll have a roll call thank Ernie council member Roes hi council member augeron hi council member Bunch yes council member elama yes council member Maguire yes vice mayor Roy yes mayor Morris I motion passes 70 on to the last item which is the council discussion approval use of a Cooperative purchase agreement for Maricopa County contract serial number uh 225-a signal polls and components with solar traffic controls LLC for an amount up to $ 56,7 presented by the UT Engineers good evening mayor and Council I will try and make this quick this is based on our um trap or pedestrian safety study the three Crossings the rapid flashing beacons at the three crosswalks and uh we will we are ordering these they are solar powered uh they will also when somebody hopefully the Dark Skies people won't kill me but when we when somebody pushes the button a a streetl will actually light up the crosswalk and let people have a fighting chance to get across Cape Creek Road and then when they're across it will go out and so we'll have a rapid flashing Beacon and we will have a uh traffic signal above the or traffic light excuse me a a street light above the cross walk as long as you have a shade on top pushing the light downward you're you are dark sky compliant and they do they have they have a shade that meets the um dark sky so we are uh I recommend approval and if you have any questions question from K just a quick question um any possibility you would consider doing one installation and looking for reaction before you do all of them in terms of um this the effect in the community in the commercial Corridor I mean it's um very mag likee very Downtown Phoenix near the freeway ramp like and I I guess we have to have something but is this the best we can do it has no small western town charm and I just wonder if you want to do a trial balloon of one of them they the the issue that we have is the three locations that were chosen were one on the West End one on the east end and one over by K by the kuas marketplace in the center and it was to um we're not doing every crosswalk we're doing the three again because those were areas where we where The Pedestrian safety was uh deemed most necessary and it comes down to a question of pedestrian safety which um I know that for about the last three or four years before we had The Pedestrian safety studies done uh we were looking it maybe having a a stack of flags um on each end where somebody could pass the flag back and forth so that they had a chance to uh I mean it was a good idea um but it was something that we that we looked at something that would be a little bit more technologically uh recognized and so um I would prefer to follow the governance of or the recommendations from the uh mag pedestrian safety studies and put in those three flashing be beacons and then we can decide how well they're working but I I think we need to have the full uh application be of them be to see how they affect us and you sliping a traffic like there for Schoolhouse as well it's not on the agenda it's not on the agenda right back from the record uh there is public comment can I ask a question oh I'm sorry sorry how you said a flashing flashing light is it fast or is it slow flashing it's a rectangular rapid flashing Beacon and I'm not sure how fast they flash but they are they are at a set Pace to direct the attention I believe they're a fairly rapid flashing Beacon are we concerned that if councilman rhs is bringing his horse trailer through there at night time and and somebody pushes that button that the strobing will cause his horse in the trailer to have an epileptic seizure I I never mind he he he he bees him never mind okay other questions real Qui um public comment no input for this item mayor okay we're looking for a motion I will make it motion to approve the use of Cooperative purchase agreement for Maricopa County contract serial number 225-a signal poles and components with solar traffic controls LLC for an amount up to $567 Second um I I'm in favor we have a we have a traffic safety study that says we got a problem and this is a solution so even if we did find somebody didn't like them I'd still put it in because we had public safety's at risk so I'd like you to come back to us in three years and tell us how many people we didn't kill who who had the second I did okay that that was your say okay Tom did you do you want to join no no but if we could get a flashing traffic light in the future that would be great thank anybody else uh this is financial council member augeron hi council member Bunch yes council member elund yes council member Maguire yes council member Rose I vice mayor Roy yes mayor moris I motion passes 70 with no further business we are a jerk