Cave Creek advances Dark Sky Community certification zoning amendments after unanimous council vote

welcome to the town council meeting for Cave Creek March 3rd 2025 the meeting is now called to order have the pledge of lenion Mark would you lead us in the pledge all you got to do is say I here's the flages thank you Mark um public announcements we have any public announcements tonight from Council seeing none uh we're at call to the public I have no one wishing to speak to for call the public okay um itend no not this I'm sorry um Kathleen yep Kathleen B is your is your uh is your speaker on it's green in that's screen can you hear me yes now we can go little closer pull it closer okay uh good evening mayor Morris vice mayor Royer and council members I wanted to say thank you for the most recent editor tutorials that were in the sonor news from mayor Morris and from councilman Freedman in regards to the W wildfires and for the comments that you made so I appreciate putting the reminder out for people for the fires there was a fire recently a couple months ago up by us and it was pretty scary all the fires are scary and I'm glad that you're having that meeting coming up in a couple weeks to help us to understand what the protocol is if we see something who do we tell who do we call how is it managed there's a lot of I'm sorry I just rushed here from work there's a lot of um miscommunication out there and I like to know what the reality is so I know how to do things and I think that um the manager Grady you the one that instigated that meeting so I appreciate that I ask a question oh you can not you can oh okay and I wanted to thank councilman Freedman for his comment in regards to the 4,000 Acres um you had mention that you weren't here before time's running out the road always seems long but before you know it you're at the end so whatever you guys can do to look into that and see how we can secure it I'd appreciate it I'm sure many people in the area would be appreciate it your Comon about the dogs on the trails is a good one but I don't know if more regulation this is just my opinion more regulation for people who you would hope they're responsible dog owners because it's sad that people get hurt up there perhaps most of the people are from out of town and they don't understand the weather Dynamics here but to regulate more I'm not into all that part of it but maybe education versus regulation is my point so and if we could have an update on kahab Springs as a community that would be really good too so thank you so much I appreciate it thank you Abraham a b good evening good afternoon and I also want to thank you guys uh councilman Freedman your writing was very very excellent in regards to uh preserving the 4,000 Acres I appreciated that and I'm so grateful that you guys haven't just pushed that off and I'm hoping that we'll have a greater understanding of when we had the uh appraisal did it come back how did it come back is it favorable to us are we going to have a voice in this thing or is it just going to be behind doors SEC second thing is that I'm also grateful that thus far you guys have not pushed the dark sky thing under a rug and say let's forget about it but it's actually been good to have the residents the business people come and have an open Agenda and conversation so thank you to all thank you no additional speakers okay we're on the town man report thank you mayor U mayor and Council um as alluded to tonight um we are having two wild fire preparedness meetings coming up the first one is going to be um at 3:30 on March 13 at the fire station we'll have our second one held on um April 9th at 3:30 in the library um along those same lines we're having on March 15th the brush cleanup day on Saturday I believe it's um from uh 8: to noon and that will be over at the Water Ranch and then we'll also have the same thing going on on um April 19th so we're getting ready for the next Fire season which as you know we're all very concerned about and doing everything we can to encourage our residents to um have involvement in getting their properties ready and and prepared um their properties to be safe for the next Fire season along the same lines also um or a different information wanted to share with you um that this is the first council meeting that we have gone to a digital Council packet for the council public has had this for some time um but we've transitioned the council to get away from a 500 page packet um which is going to be a tremendous Savings of paper and labor um we did some cost estimating of savings last fiscal year and I don't have the numbers with me but I can just tell you the amount of paper save toner and wear and tear on the photocopier is amazing um plus it took staff uh manually to put together those packets so um we're hopeful that the um the iPads will really help um make everything a lot more streamlined and for the sake of the public everything the council gets on their digital packets um which is on their iPads it's the exact same packet that the public receives that when they go to the website so um and it's been that way for for many years it's just that they used to get paper now it's all digital mayor that's all I have for tonight thank you okay thank you we question Town manager yeah yeah the town manager just not the public so is there a reason why we can't share what the appraisal value came back at for the open land um I believe we can I I don't know if right now is the appropriate maybe we should discuss it and figure out how to approach coming back and sharing that with the public but I do think at some point we definitely need to if we're going to be seeking their consideration of of possibly a a a question to acquire the property so absolutely you can confirm though that there are definite plans can't you excuse me you can confirm that that there are there's nothing going there's been no there's been no acquisition there's been no acquisition efforts we we went through and did a um appraisal which we're required to under state law um we share that information with the state trust land we also shared it with the council in an e session but I do think we should be able to come back at a later date knowing that that numbers that we share with the public will likely have have to be um redone again at some point in the future but at least give them a ballpark number I just tonight's just not the appropriate time to do it but we will make sure we come back at a a future Council date to share that with the public okay thank you oh could I just add one last thing just for a point of information that the whole process with the state land has been underway for about 18 months is that correct that is correct because part of what we're doing is also looking at um having an extension of the existing I intergovernmental agreement which would be able to keep and preserve the state trust land that we have before possibly acquiring any state land which would be likely a question of the voters and that IGA technically expires in 2029 that is correct so there there's six main Parcels are they all appraising at a different rate or is it the same appraisal price for everything um I would just I I think we're getting way off topic here but I can tell you when we come back we can get into those level of details for the public okay uh there's a proclamation this evening for C Creek Rodeo days I'm going to read it it's it's short but it has some interesting information whereas Cave Creek is a community which celebrates Heritage and acknowledges the history and culture of our town has been significantly influenced by the Native Americans ranching and Mining and whereas the Cave Creek Rodeo has been bringing the community together for over 45 years to share in the pride and preserve our unique culture and whereas the Cave Creek Rodeo consists of a parade mutton busting Rodeo dances a cornhill tournament all Bulls all night and three action-packed PRCA rodo performances and more to round out a weekend week-long celebration of an Arizona's Town's Western Heritage and whereas the Cave Creek Rodeo supports the Cave Creek culture through charitable community support and whereas Cave Creek recognized the enormous contribution of the Cave Creek Rodeo committee president board and volunteers now therefore I Robert Morris mayor of Cave Creek Arizona do hereby Proclaim March 22nd through March 30th 2025 to be Cave Creek Rodeo days and Proclaim boots and cowboy hats as the official wear during the week we extend our best wishes for the safety of contestants in stock and we wish each contestant good times and high scores and witness thereof and so forth so the rodeo is coming and it's bigger and better and we announced uh last meeting and beinge before that that we have our eyes and we're working on bringing yet another high Prestige Rodeo to Cave Creek in the fall so that is the uh Proclamation which L uh issued and we're on to the consent agenda we have consent agenda items not tonight not tonight okay yeah it's on here so okay a general agenda we're going to change it up a little we're going to move the Dark Skies was last on the agenda we're going to move that uh to the first at the request of council member Maguire and so the dark sky presentation would proceed thank you uh mayor and Council um tonight the request before the council is is um coming before you and requesting Council consideration to move forward with um the process of um further vetting and going through the um dark sky Community um text amendment process um just to provide additional background you recall that Bruce Arland from The Cave Creek dark sky Association approached the council back in March of um had a book that um contained the model ordinance that was provided by the dark sky international organization and they presented that to the council and requested Council to consider um the town becoming certified as a dark sky Community um back in April um since that was not an agenda item that the council could either react to or respond to I placed an item on the agenda for the council to provide direction to the town manager um and my specific Direction was for the council to um direct the town manager to uh proceed with um going through the dark sky U Community certification process of what that would um entail that night um the the council um uh approved that motion and then after the motion was um uh completed I asked for clarification um actually the mayor asked for clarification and ask that um we come back to the council um before proceeding with this after we had done some initial um leg work on this um you recall probably the last um we have had three public meeting staff is contined to do research on this and working with dark skies um uh International and the three meetings that we had with the public we had two um meetings intended for residents and then we had one that was really primarily meant for the business Corps owners and um we received feedback but it came to my attention um afterwards that um I neglected to come back before you to get guidance and direction as to whether you wish to proceed or not so even though back in April I thought that's what the direction was and it was approved in that motion the the mayor had asked for clarification and ask specifically it probably would have been better to amend the motion but that's what happened and so out of respect to the mayor I'm here tonight seeking your direction as to whether we proceed or not proceed further with this um a lot of leg work has happened so far and um The Next Step if the council were to um approve moving forward with this is Staff um will work through the text amendment process with the Planning Commission and then it would come back to council for its consideration and then if Council were to approve um the text amendments which would be necessary in order to become a dark sky certified Community then the next step would be for the town to submit an application um and go through the application process with the Dark Skies International um so that is why we're here t tonight um if you're confused I understand it because um I thought we were going down a path that I had clear Direction but once it was brought to my attention that um I needed to come back I wanted to make sure that I was not getting crosswise with the direction of the council with that I'd be happy to answer any questions the mayor and Council may have at this time I I think I just ought to clarify that this is not approving Dark Skies no this is directing IT staff to take it to the Planning Commission for analysis with our with regard to our code and the only and then there would be another actual approval vote would be another council meeting sometime in the future when all that work is done so this is not an approval very good point mayor and for clarification too um our town attorney and staff and I have been working through some of the issues and I think there's some things that um that are still in in flux right now um but we have roughly uh six weeks or so that we're confident we can get this all figured out it's really just one text amendment that we're trying to get uh figured out right now um and I'm not really having an issue I believe that we're confident we'll be able to get this um worked out and it's not an issue at this point um so thank you for your Clarity question question yeah thank you mayor um gr at this point do you feel like you have adequate public input through the public meetings and the work with the consultant uh to move forward with those amendments with the Planning Commission I I do I I do think we're going to probably have some additional um public involvement obviously that will occur at the Planning Commission level and also at the um Council level um we have been requested by the business owners they like to have a checklist so that they can kind of see what they may have to do or what they would like what what would be um required or requested of them to do um so um we're going to be working on that in fact right now Steve has been working on what that checklist might be so basically um the public will still have involvement all the way through we did preliminary um public involvement the uh only criticism we had at that time um we did have John barentine who was the executive director of Dark Skies um who previously was the executive director but he was available to provide um feedback to the public with some of the questions or concerns that they raised and I thought that was very helpful because um he has helped a number of cities go through uh the dark sky um process and so um I thought it was very helpful to have him there so um I'm thinking we will probably still engage him once we get to the commission and Council level because I anticipate um we'll have public hearings where that would be very helpful to have somebody um as the staff and I we don't have the level expertise to be able to answer questions on how other cities have done this or or what what alternatives um maybe that people might be able to work out or businesses might be able to work out um and still be compliant with the dark sky so I think it's going to be helpful to have this person continue throughout the entire process he's not here tonight because this was a very more or less a simple question for the council council member roads how significant difference are we talking about how much the difference between the revised ordinances you guys are looking at versus what we had is there anything really Earth shaking no um there was housekeeping that we needed to do anyways um one was string lights we've heard a lot from both the public and and others that that um right now we um they have proliferated and we you know a lot of that has happened since the um the covid pandemic and it's not just here it's it's all around the country um you see people having what I call beastro lights or beastro Lighting in their backyards and then you also see restaurants doing that and so um a lot of city codes um don't really address that now so so there's some things like that that are a little bit different but again they following our existing uh lighting requirements of shielding and having them only be operating during certain Limited hours I think is really not too far off from what we our our current lighting code is thank you sure El never require can you clarify the role of the public and the protocols in the Planning Commission because in a recent Planning Commission meeting you know Mr bre clarified you can speak up before the meeting you can speak up at the end but he wasn't making comments during the uh processing of the agenda well text amendments by State Statute I believe has to go through a um yes so it there and and he's very familiar with that so um the matter you're talking about was a little it had to do with a site planning right process so that's a much different more or less an administrative type action that um uh and a lot of times it's handled at the staff level but it's completely different than this type of process Mr Mayor there is an issue I mean we will be charged with bringing back a code that we believe can help you successfully accomplish approval from the dark sky organiz organization having said that and there are some some members of the community who believe there could be tension between the non-conforming use statutes of your code and what the dark sky or requires I I agree with Grady I I have I think we have a solution that that that can work out but I I know some may be listening to this to we say it's not they'll say there's more than housekeeping I believe we can get this down to a housekeeping issue so that we can one have an application that successfully runs the gauntlet of the dark sky organization and two addresses the needs of some of your community who strongly believe in the importance of preserving non-conforming use rights I'm afraid so right now our lighting ordinance is complaint driven where if you have a problem with somebody and you can't work it out with your neighbor which hopefully you can we go to Marshall Stein we put a complaining with him down the road if let's just say this gets approved who is going to enforce this it it's really no different it's it's a code matter so it would' be a code compliance I don't think we're going to have a proliferation part of what we need to do as part of this as anything else else is education um so we're going to need to make sure that the public understands that Dark Skies doesn't mean you're not seeing lights that's not what it is we're still preserving property rights people still have the right to have their landscaping lights or um they Lighting on their homes but they have to be more or less in conformance with what we currently have which is you know you can have motion detector lights but you can't have them just stay on like all night um they have to be shielded they they need to also be you know a 2900 Kelvin 20 I'm sorry thank you 20 2700 Kelvin um color temperature so they're like the soft white incandescent color not you know the blue white type lighting so but back to your question I don't I I have concerns when I worked previously and found Hills I was very concerned initially about going going through a dark sky process because we had very limited staff there as well and we had like a one and a half people that were code enforcement and they were and and so I wanted to make sure I was not creating a big workload we only had and I'm not joking when I say this we only had about six complaints from the time that this went into effect that were resolved within a short period of time after receiving the complaints okay so thank you for that but for clarity's sake this was hypothetically approved approved right would people from Dark Skies International be descending on our town to tell us what to do no okay we still have local control okay these are our ordinances all we're doing is basically getting certified and joining a club of other cities and towns that are certified dark sky communities they provide the the Baseline for others we're we're light years ahead of other cities where we are right now versus those that desire to become dark sky and they have to really really have to do a lot of um reducing lighting and other things and most of the time it's the municipal lighting um you know a lot of times a lot of cities have street lights and they're not shielded or they're not the right color all that we don't have any of those issues here we also don't have Parks a lot of parks generate a lot of light um you know your ball fields your basketball courts your tennis courts um your uh security lighting around Parks we don't have any of those issues because we don't have Parks so we don't have a lot of what I would call um Town related lighting that is going to be problematic so staff is going to negotiate compromise with dark sky so that it's not the current um agenda that they have and um then it will go before the Planning Commission and eventually come before us yeah and I I would probably just say we're we're going to run by them which we've done already at at a couple different meetings with them some language that we're proposing for text amendments and they've been generally fine with what we've proposed um and the language is very similar to what we currently have on the books right now so I would say we're going to probably if if we were to if Council were to allow us to proceed with this I would tell you with the exception of the item that um uh our attorney was uh talking about um I would say we're probably like at 85 to 90% having similar language to what is on the books right now Tom um thank you Mr Mayor um I was pleased to hear what your proposed schedule is because the other challenge of dark sky is this dark chamber uh summer recess will be here in June and goes right up I think through September so uh I don't know what's going to get from Planning and Zoning to the council but we could conceivably be doing it in the fall or early winter so um that's a very good point uh council member so we have um sought the opinion of our town attorney to help do what we can to expedite this part of the challenge and we'll probably have to come back to council at a later date on amending our town code as it relates to our meeting notice requirements but we're going to be doubling up on right now our utility bills are used for helping meet our noticing requirements for um public hearings that go before the Planning Commission and the council and we are doubling up on that and letting them know like at the um I believe it's is it the March billing cycle we're putting in now we just have just one week where we have all utility bills go out and it's like one billing cycle um and it's going to be the end of the month noticing that um the Planning Commission will be hearing this matter at that time we're also doing a legal notice in the newspaper um but we're doubling up so we don't have to have the delay so we're thinking we're going to be able to stay on um On Target to get the second reading completed by the second meeting in June if everything works with without a hitch to your point if there is a hiccup along the way it could be that the the second reading may not occur until perhaps in say September but right now the schedule conceivably could be assuming it comes out of Planning and Zoning um it could be on target to come to council uh May June if I can do a followup when is it scheduled to be heard before Planning and Zoning the meeting and April okay first meeting second meting and and I'm one you know I'm an optimist I'm always the half the glasses half full so I've I've anticipated along the way that there would be a hiccup and initially the hiccup after we had this delay by coming tonight was the noticing requirement was going to be we wouldn't even be able to get it to the council until um for the first reading until the first meeting in June that's assuming no other hiccups with the the board um but we were able to find a solution on the noticing requirement on how to double up the notice about the subsequent meetings coming up um and it's possible procedurally that um say the Planning Commission um is not ready to take an action in April and I I fully understand that then they could continue that meeting until the meeting in in May which then of course delays coming before Council until June so to your point it could very will happen Okay I really appreciate all the detail at the state capital delay can be death and I just wanted to see that we didn't try to replicate that pattern up here right so thank you sure other comments from Council okay um my comments are I still see a lot of um education needed there will be no radical changes will will not be operating in the dark uh we're not going to cancel rodeos and concerts and things like that it restricts the color of Light which is the K and it it it turns lights on when they uh when they're not needed like in the middle of the night and although they can come on if we need to turn lights on to load horses or have rodeos or uh have businesses do things I think they'll I think uh there'll be very very little change in Practical terms to way the town is now and uh this vote tonight is just on weaing to to direct to take that to the next step which is to the um to the Planning Commission and uh to get some of the details worked out that our legal staff is concerned about so this is not an approval of Dark Skies that that this vote tonight is not that it's just to move to the next step to see to see the next card in the deck correct I have trouble with cards you have trouble yeah I thought you won that you lost you lost the draw yeah any um so at this point we take public comment on this uh the following people actually submitted uh comments online uh Mary rhods in support Kimberly pren in support Judy Freeman in support Tracy Davies in support and Miriam frell also in support and those will be added to the minutes okay I also have uh members in the audience wishing to speak starting with Larry binkovitz thank you for the opportunity I have one question and maybe it's more appropriate to go to the town manager is the lighting on this building within current code particularly the two lights on the North End by the Sheriff's Office that are on all night are unbelievably bright shine directly into our bedroom which is several hundred yards away up on the hill we have the the steel house with the glass windows that hang off the hill there we have to put something in front of the windows to block it out so my my understanding is there's a couple different Provisions that the dark sky International um allow one is for Public Safety and Public Safety facilities um but we've recognize that that is something that's going to have to change um I don't believe that the lighting um either the lumens or the color is supposed to be the correct ones and so that would be something that we would be um changing Stephen um we're one of our obligations is we have to inventory all the town lights and it's really easy because um we don't have Parks as I mentioned earlier um or street lights so all the lights on this campus will be inventoried and submitted and we have to give like a anticipated correction date on that as part of the process so but I um I I'm understanding if I'm not mistaken I'm GNA call Stephen parales up he's our planner who's been very involved Stephen is are those um would those be out of compliance withu I believe they may be brigh than what is currently code as far as any um for share facilities and such but had referred to that we would doing lighting inventory fac have to be brought into comp it give us up to 10 years but being that that's an annoyance for you we would obviously we would look at trying to get it and within the ordinances currently or propos does such lighting have to be shielded made to down lighting we are 100 feet above where the light ISR yeah we would be looking at trying to get it in compliance at the same time um as I mentioned Public Safety facilities are are some that are Exempted but we also want to be a good neighbor so we would try to do what we could to do to um not be impacting you me too and I'm all for safety for the sh and the Marshalls but is there a way I would find out from you what the disposition is once you've done your yeah so just to let you know we have to go through this whole process here and then this is part of the application process where we have to provide the inventory of all of our uh lighting the town's um facility lighting and provide that and um we have to have the measurements of what the lumens are and the color and whether they're shielded or unshielded and then we will get back from them as part of the recommendation um that that is for instance not a compliant light in and then that has to be um it's five years right on used to be 10 years but they've they've lowered it to five years but that would be something we wouldn't wait five years for him czo I thank you all I just learned about this last did you pull that microphone down little thank I just learned about this in the last week or so so my notes might be a little not correct but I'm just going to read what I wrote um so I know you guys were trying to make us a dark sky Community which I did not realize that I thought that's what this vot was tonight um and and in my opinion we have the right to quiet enjoyment on our properties the city officials I feel are crossing the boundaries by trying to take our rights away if someone doesn't want lights on they don't have to turn them on the current officials are I'm sorry uh what are the current officials thinking with endangering all of us by restricting our lights our elderly our children our grandchildren our spouses our pets our horses our animals Etc will all be in danger can you consider the consequences that we would endure if this new ordinance passed with this new ordinance who's going to be responsible for the new J dangers they are subjecting our community to and for the injuries that it could cause by our limited ability to see our on our own properties if my dog got attacked by a pack of coyotes and killed or maimed who's going to pay that bill if my spouse myself my child my grandchildren or an elderly family member or one of my guests get bitten by a rattlesnake sits on a scorpion gets attacked by a bobcat gets attacked by a Havalina Etc who's going to pay for the treatment and what happens if they pass away we have many dangerous and venomous creatures that are in abundance at night in Cave Creek will the town be responsible for the Medical Treatments and the issues because of the new ordinance I can honestly say if it affects it if it affects me in any way I will be looking to hold somebody responsible as the city is taking my rights away to protect myself my family and my pets I'm not sure if the town has spoken to their attorney about the possibility of the town's liabilities this is something that affects the entire community and should be put to a vote from the residents of Cape Creek and not decided by a handful of people issues to be considered our town is a tourist destination and if you take the lights away it will no longer have that twinkle attraction from tourist that it currently has we went to dinner last night and they have all the twinkle lights above us sitting outside and it's beautiful um will that hurt our economy will we lose Revenue will the residents have to make up for the Lost Revenue our elderly children grandchildren pets and all our residents will be in increased danger of being bitten by a rattlesnake or other dangerous venomous creatures that reside in our community it's hard to see them in the light even in the daytime so if you take our lights away we're going to be more susceptible to them we have natural Predators all over Cave Creek and with no lights they will be on the prowl does this have anything to do with the power supply or AI that may be needed in the future is that one of the reasons for dark sky I don't know so that's it thank you thank you um after the public comments over i g to ask Stephen to come up and address some of these issues that that uh maybe some education might might help here Sam czo um I have one question what is the reason for Dark Skies it makes absolutely no sense in my my mind what we're even talking about we do have properties here we have the rights to have quiet and enjoyment of our properties and what is the purpose of a dark sky if there were Dark Skies that means airplanes shouldn't have lights danger if there were Dark Skies that means you need to take out the sources in outer space that light up planets I don't understand what this is about you're doing this for what reason I ask anyone of us to possibly give me an answer it's logical to the question we're going to address these all at the end so stepen if you'll take notes on some of these things I appreciate and I who gonna answer from s and I feel the also we do have the right to enjoy AR property and whatever anybody wants to do on there should be their right unless they're harming the community some way I see no harm in lights we have lights on every Appliance you open your car door lights go on you open your glove compartment lights go on you get up in the middle of the night in a home you might have lived in for 30 years to go to the bathroom first thing you do is turn on a light so you could see you can't navigate in the bathroom after 30 years ask anybody if that's not the first thing they do lights are a necessity they're not a danger and they really aren't harming nobody other than infringing on your neighbor rights by removing your right to enjoy your property safely and securely and I think this is a ridiculous idea and it's I don't know why it's being suggested unless the new thing is to just put more and more controls on people and that's not what America's ever been about it should be a free country and when you work and pay for our property and you're not harming nobody putting on lights nobody should be involved in that like a gentleman prior who spoke the light goes in his room and it's okay direct it down but are people who spent thousands of dollars on outside of lighting are they grandfathered in if this thing pass cuz I for one I'm not removing lights off my house and they're not they all have covers on them and stuff or under Eaves but they're not going away in my backyard I have pets the lights I have two spotlights that I flip the switch look out my front patio door my back patio door my side window before I let my dog in the art if I can't see out there and I've encountered I've lived here 45 years probably 40 50 Bobcats on my property I've encountered hundreds of rattlesnakes including moveies that if you do get bit and survive your nervous system is shock for the rest of your life uh there's Havalina they come to my property and live in Black Mountain I don't have no big ranch or nothing but the bottom line is 8 n 10 havena at a time this year alone I probably had 10 12 30 40 year old plants pulled out of the ground on my property they don't seem to like to come around when they see lights well the havina yeah you do we understand the your your time's expired though that blinking red light there well I really don't understand why we're even here talking about this and I think it's very sad wasting the city's time and the community discussing something that we all need badly Lighting in Arizona thank you thank you for your comments Travis w um before you start tra I'm gonna remind everybody that you have three minutes for comments that that's not questions or things like that you're commenting on what we're doing and when that uh the light's green you can talk when it's yellow your time is getting the end when it's read please wrap up your paragraph and yeah and uh you're you're advising us on on what you would like us to do rather than informing yourself about the issue we'll have a lot of meetings and there have already been a number of meetings to educate and it looks like we're going to have to have more so go ahead Travis thank you yep uh so I just have a list of uh kind of questions not I don't expect you guys to answer them these are questions that are somewhat rhetorical um we've spent a lot of Staff time going back and forth we've spent uh a significant amount of time uh including all the residents here who've come to all of these meetings I know I've come to all of them that that have come up other than the ones that were the initial proposals for them um so I'm I'm curious about the amount of staff time that were making the town manager and Stephen go through all these hoops for something that I think is deeply unpopular um with your current residence right now you guys have stated you currently have 90% compliance with what Dark Skies would want to do um my opinion is that we should keep what we have and if we want to make small tweaks here and there let's make those small tweaks I don't see any benefit and so far no one can really tell me a benefit for being dark sky certified my issue is less with the pollution and it's more with the association with this Dark Skies International who if anybody would care to look up uh what they look like on the internet and their presence on the internet and what they've publicly stated things like light Justice um diversity equity and inclusion are all over there uh material I don't think that's consistent with cave Creek's values um we have an advocate for right Tom barentine um I don't think it's really fair that there's not an advocate against Dark Skies um there's been no info so we've asked several times for what the proposed code changes are I understand they're still in the works um but we've asked for those things month a month and a half ago um we still haven't had any of that information um provided to us uh um another issue it sounds like the staff is already kind of leaning towards pushing this proposal um again we're still at an early stage I think at this point the town the council everyone should be pretty in the middle about it and it just doesn't sound like that from the way that I'm hearing people speak about it um like I said we still have no demonstrated benefit um we made that very clear with being as close as we are to Phoenix that anything that we do for light pollution isn't really going to make our sky is darker dark sky J will admit that and has admitted that in several of the meetings um we're talking about a 10-year implementation uh I don't think that that is doing anything but kicking the can down the road so we can say oh you guys have 10 years to come into compliance with it but in 10 years we're still going to have the same problem that we have now which is we don't want to be in compliance with a law that is overly restrictive they talk about joining an exclusive Club um when we join the Dark Skies group um that club is Sedona Bisby Flagstaff Tucson uh maybe I'm way off but I don't think Cave Creek really is in the same vein or in the same view as still on a Bisby Flag Staff and Tucson would also bring up the rodeo grounds um the stadium lighting for DSI uh DSi Dark Skies International is pretty restrictive uh and then the last point is code complexity so I don't want to see the code go to such a complex level that we're forced to buy Dark Skies approved products and I hope that's not the case because then that point we're lining the pockets of a group that really doesn't align with Kate Creek values thanks for your time thank you Bruce Arin thank you Council for uh at staff very much uh Steven parales has worked very hard not too many hours I think uh Luke counsman uh Grady Miller others uh for having a what we would call a discussion so that we it goes to pnz to keep a discussion going we've worked very hard this is what what it's all about to talk about it uh to keep that going so I hope tonight in a very positive way you vote to move it to the next step to keep the discussion going and to dig down to every detail I was happy to see our town manager Grady Miller be very also very positive about this process as I am um I would like to correct one thing I heard tonight 90% of the people are not against it most people are actually in favor of it um but again it gets down to education we are in favor of Lights used properly it's not about turning lights uh off all lights off uh and not using lights we love light do light right happens to be uh a phrase that is used in cap Creek dark sky and uh so that's all I want to say thank you and uh I hope that you vote in favor of moving it to the next discussion level thank you very much thank you Janet Moore my foot fell asleep Janet Moore thank you for allowing me to speak um I'd also my husband wanted to be here and he couldn't so I'd like to take his three minutes also um you know this is kind of like what Ronald Reagan said hey I'm from the government I'm here to help um I all four Dark Skies the concept I'm okay with the lighting I just built a garage I bought dark sky certified lights they weren't in compliance with Cave Creek rules because Cave Creek already has such strict rules that my certified lights are not in compliance that's that's how tough your rules are um I just do not want an HOA type of government to control it we have a system now we do not need to have some sort of a government agency which is what it is it's somebody governing us they're they're it's an organization from another country they're profiting from it it's an LLC at 503c you're not getting any tax money from it so why are we doing this to ourselves um it was said that oh yes the people are educated enough but you know 5100 citizens live in the town of Cave Creek and I saw a handful of people at those meetings so I don't think the word is out and I do believe a lot of people do not want be governed if you drive down the streets in the town you're looking at neighborhoods that don't want an HOA people moved up here because they don't want an ho away so have your dark sky ordinances I'm all for that have have it dark but we do not need to be certified there's 5,000 acres to the north of us in between the town of Cave Creek and spur cross the people in the county can turn their lights on as bright as they want we have Phoenix to the South and then we have over 2,000 acres bordering to the West which I I can't remember if it's Phoenix or the county but they can have their lights as bright as they want too we it's just silly they even said at the meeting the dark sky gentleman said that they cannot guarantee that it's going to do any good being certified and they can't make it darker there's so it's it's just being a part of giving them their money or whatever it is their their Prestige or or whatever we don't need it as a town we do not want to be governed by by another government entity uh let's see if I have anything else in here it is taking our private property rights away when when you have somebody governing us that I can't vote in that's taking our private property rights away I believe you're I can't you're not voting in dark skies and I don't know who those people are going to be and the other thing too is the I hear a lot of people saying oh it's only because the town doesn't uh protect the ordinance es they're not enforcing the ordinances but at the same breath they're saying that the town's going to enforce these ordinances so again why do we need to have this layer of people one of the people in the llc's doesn't even live in the town of Cave Creek so she's going to enforce my lights by the way I keep my house very dark you you will not hear anybody complain about me for dark skies because and I guess I don't I don't need to use St three minutes right now I'm finished thank you you Cath a b hello again um thank you for this discussion can you hear hello again thank you for this discussion um some of the questions that I had um comments that I were going to make have been answered already I um Grady Miller did a good job explaining that and as well as the manager so and I really appreciate that you guys are asking all these questions I see it as a designation and I realize and understand that a lot of the ordinances that are already in place already are lower than what Dark Skies is mandating if you know that if we get that designation my understanding it's not a group of people that are going to come in and regulate you it's not a governmental regulation the cost out of pocket to the town other than maybe the building that needs to be resolved so he's not inconvenienced um is minimal it's just an annual fee I guess can probably clarify that but it's not like you're paying money out to an organization but I living in Cave Creek yes we have the county and they don't have regulation yes you have Phoenix they don't have regulation and all that's coming up here um where I am up in the northern part of Cave Creek on the other side of the the Seven Sisters you can see the glow it's over there coming but when I it's not into my view it's not in Cave Creek but you see it over there and the difference between that I used to live on that side of town the difference between that and where we are right now I go out at night let the dog out and I look up in the sky and it is crystal clear and that's what the people of dark sky the people that support this and there's a lot of people that live here that support it are looking for it's not about turning off all your lights and if you're going to have the rodeo well it's an event it's a public event it requires things to be safe you turn the lights on it's going to go off it'll 11:00 12:00 whatever that specific time is I believe it's 11: you turn your light off you don't have your overhead Barn light on or your overhead RV garage light on while you're working on whatever you're working on I just think I look at it as a designation and I look at it as positive and if we're already doing all these things why do we need it just to solidify it to keep the character of what this town is all about and just to keep it beautiful once once if you don't what you know the future hold you could be just as fearful what does the future hold you know will another uh Council or Planning and Zoning commission change it and everything's going to be bright once you open the door you're never going to be able to go back and that's for a lot of different things so thank you so much I appreciate it and I'm definitely in favor for this I appreciate thank you Cory cazo not here okay okay Lisa Greenman good evening Council Lisa Greenman and Morning Star first of all I want to say to the people in the back this is not about turning off lights it's not about not having lights um okay I know that's I just wanted to say that to clarify please please stop please stop I'm gonna I'm gonna I'm going to bring it to order the person at the podium is talking to the council don't talk to people people there don't talk back this is a a a political meeting a governmental meeting and the protocol is you're speaking to councel thank you and I am speaking to send it on to the next stage and the reason that I want to do that is because clearly there needs to be more uh public information that's of the correct variety it's not about turning off your lights um and it's not a government agency and it doesn't nobody's making money off of this so these are the kinds of things that keep needing to come up just besides what we also have to deal with in terms of the um ordinance which had to be relooked at anyway and the board of the dark Cave Creek dark sky did the initial work to make that happen and brought it in and then the town and Steve with all the work that he's been doing and Luke has has been doing um which was work that had to be done anyway it was already set on a Glide path by the board's work and by uh Valentine coming in and working too and so I think that at this point we're in a really good position to take it on to the next level and from there um clearly more education needs to be done which is kind of ironic because the whole point of dark sky International is education about lights so that you can see the night sky it has nothing to do do with turning off your lights not using your lights um not being protective of your children or your dogs or your pets or anything else it's that's not what it's about at all so um you know where I stand on this issue thank you I appreciate it thanks Lisa Cory calderazzo and Kathy calderazzo do not wish to speak but they are both opposed two opposed okay I and I have a a private I have a note here for Mark who appears to be opposed I put him in the opposition category um other comments public comments I do not have any additional uh BR I'll let you decide who somebody want to you know kind of yeah if up uh some of the issues that may not step Paralis or planner he's been the primary principal person on this do you want to come up to the maybe the table or the podium and address some of the concerns that are tonight certainly um I have more than three minutes right May for you it's two okay gotcha so uh mayor Morris vice mayor R um and council members uh pretty much just more of looking into this and um the previous meetings that we had as far as sorry people able to hear me um as far as why are we doing this it was initially directed um to the town manager to further have staff evaluate this see where we currently are um and gr you can correct me if I'm wrong in any shape or form um we were asked to consult with dark sky International uh to see where we our current ordinance currently is um after looking into it um we're fairly close it was just more of um tidying up some language to meet the requirements so um as far as looking at our ordinance and knowing not much would necessarily change um is just more of language clarifying items that would meet their certain requirements that's in essence as far as why we continue to move forward with this um uh the current status and any uh issues um from speaking with different people from dark sky International the current ordinance is is what they've said fair and and would meet their requirements as long as we update the language um within our current ordinance so it's more of updating housekeeping items as well um as grad referred to as far as the string lights um um landscape lighting making sure that everything is being utilized uh to within within Realms of private properties um and and as far as why the material hasn't been show uh shared is because it would be premature right now to do so if we're not at a publication state but I have offered those who have had concerns to come in and meet and go over any items that have been um of concerns and I haven't I've had a couple um individuals come to meet with me but none I can't share any items as far as uh what we are proposing I can only share as far as what I know at this moment and where we're headed to until uh we get further further legal advice as Bill had uh mentioned earlier there is a certain item a couple items in there that we need to get clarification on but um that may be a little bit of a potential I wouldn't say danger but it would it's something we need to be cautious on um and I know that I'm not going to speak for you mayor but I mean there are going to be more M opportunities there's going to be the plan commission there's going to be first reading of uh the town council meeting for public to come in and get further educated the we anticipate at the meeting for Planning Commission which I believe is going to be uh we're hoping for April 17th if you are to approve this motion today uh would April 17th or April 18th would be when we anticipate the Planning Commission meeting uh within that time we plan to publish the um the Amendments two weeks prior uh before the meeting so I'll give you public opportunity to review it assess it come with me uh come meet with me with any questions um there's there's going to be opportunities to further speak on this and meet with us and um and as far as as overall um are we going looking to be more restrictive than what we currently currently are and um the answer would be to that I I don't believe so because we wouldn't be going through this if we're going to make it more restricted we currently are that's where I am right now so let me ask you a question yes mayor from some of the commenters I heard that they think this is something new we already have extremely restrictive light ordinances is that not true that is correct so it wouldn't be anything new it'd be just more clar clarifying some items with different language it would be essentially the same language so you are correct it's nothing new and people can have lights on to to avoid uh hazardous conditions or animals or to take horses in and out of trailers safely get to to and from Cars Moving in public you can still have lights to do that is that not correct correct that that I mean that is there is no restriction you'll be able to um that was one thing that I did address with dark sky International is that we have a health safety concern um with the lighting or is that going to deprive of this and they've said no and within this ordinance amendments we're looking to clearly spell out as far as how um lighting is to be addressed to handle the lightf safety matter for this so to answer your question sorry it was pretty long but no restrictions um life health safety is still going to be looked into um we wouldn't make anything that would cause harm to the we wouldn't enforce anything or insert anything that would cause harm to the public and what role will uh Dark Skies International have in enforcing and monitoring and uh will it be another layer of government or any kind of control will they have any kind of authorities any kind of responsibilities over this mayor they would have no uh control whatsoever as far as enforcing and overseeing further um how to control our town this just more of certifying the that were dark sky certified and that's what it would um come down to May if I may just for clarification to your last question um the town will be obligated to submit an annual report that just shows our um progress um you know inventory of our current lighting here and progress and it's not a very it's typically a couple page document that we submit the worst case scenario is um that they could if they felt like we weren't um making suitable efforts let's say on maybe the town its own lighting here on this campus they could revoke the certification but that's not going to affect us it doesn't there's no fine there's nothing just means we don't get to say we are a certified dark sky community so that's the worst case after going through a process and assuming Council approves um you know lighting ordinances that are compliant that's the worst possible thing that could happen to the town I think they also said it never happened before they haven't ever revoked because all the communities really are in support of maintaining that status Dusty so I actually went to the airport to pick somebody up a few days ago or to meet them there at the airport and notice there's a lot of advertising for communities including Fountain Hills that says come see Fountain Hills in our Dark Skies um I know it sounds crazy but when people come to visit Arizona they expect to see things like rodeos stuff that happens at the chip I mean the bull riding they they expect these kinds of things I that's kind of the Western Heritage the other thing about Western Heritage is having those open Skies going out at night looking up and say oh my that solid band of light is the Milky Way you can't see that if you ever go to the east coast so I I mean it's a tourist draw I know that Sedona advertises heavily for it Cottonwood um Fountain Hills just recently I also know that Flagstaff has an extensive advertising campaign and there's a lot of people that come and do that one of the things that that this will do is talking about a benefit to the town is it will provide a certain amount of Interest by people who live in a Phoenix area to come out to Cave Creek we're not going to be a destination like Sedona ever right and we're just not we don't have the hotels we don't have the you know off-road adventures all that other crazy stuff that they do what we do have though are people that come up and make day trips well if we can turn the day trips also into spending a little bit more time that's not going to do nothing but help our businesses just my thought other uh com yeah I want to take a little exception to where we're going and that is we are I think a lot of the discussion is pro and con Dark Skies it's all good information that's not Where We Are Tonight Tonight is should we go forward and investigate and that will reveal the responses to what the public has had to say that a lot of this is just premature I think all of this is good information but tonight all we're talking about is will we proceed with the process my second comment is that if staff is taking a position regarding Pro or con that should not happen and my experience has been that staff has generally not done that I think there's a perception sometimes that they're in the pocket of the builders or whatever if that's the case they're out of line but if they're gathering information and acting on behalf of moving forward and the ordinances then they are in line but you know my experience has been that that staff I I think our staff is very good and I I think I I want to compliment staff for taking a neutral position but again I want we're getting way ahead of where we should be discussing tonight so my comments real quickly are um Parks were discuss briefly if let's just say in the future Cave Creek gets a park there um is this going to affect the possibility of having a park at night and I also want to say regardless of how I end up voting tonight doesn't reflect on how I would vote if this came back across us I think that this is a catch 22 good bad it's kind of teetering right now you know so that's all I have to say did you want to take the park comment or I could do that as well um I'll I'll chime in on that uh so that's a that's a portion that we had to look into clarifying um right now we just have outdoor recreational facilities listed in the current zoning ordinance that's something that will fall into that category on how they are to be regulated and so on but the lights wouldn't um be um regulated restrictive on that end if we were to have a park um and and so on so the lighting would be all shielded and and would have hoods on them so that they wouldn't um leak into say neighborhoods or um and they would be timed they would not be on past say 11 o'clock at night or or the use if there isn't like a ball fields that they're not being used there's no need for the lights to be on so but we may have parking lights may be on up until like 11 o'clock at night or something like that just for security purposes thank you for that comments down here question Tom thank you Mr Mayor um how about a historical review because I know you love them um for those of you who are here in the 90s we had the horse issue how many horses can you have on an acre of land but it wasn't just the horse it was the cattle the chickens the goats and so forth and like most laws in most societies they're not really designed for the majority they're designed for the minority that don't want to make decisions based on reasonable behavior in relation to their neighbors but the horse issue in the early 90s it went on for an extended period of time it got very bitter and the thing that I learned back then which I keep remembering now is C Creek is not Phoenix and the reason everybody lives here is because we're not Phoenix so the incorporation in ' 86 was to protect us from an imminent inclusion into the city of Phoenix and their values look at the failure of New River new River's been here as longer longer than us they have less Plumbing but they had been fellow travelers from the old days the horse issue in the old days in the 90s became a controversy because so many people had moved here from Scottsdale and they had horses for 30 and 40 years and the city changed the values changed the elected officials change and Scottdale went for being a horse community and They too had horses downtown in Oldtown for the par Del Soul they had that lifestyle back in Scottsdale that were still maintaining pretty well up here so the people behind the protected rights on their property for horses were people that had been left alone forever and then finally they were refugees like probably everybody in this room is an urban Refugee at some point in some time uh we had Tree City USA for a while I can't resist mentioning that as a personal lobbying opportunity brri City USA was kind of a designation like this and it was designed to try to get us to actually agree to a quota of tree replacement and so forth and it's Fallen by the wayside but I would certainly entertain an opportunity to talk about that with staff at some point in the future but if you accept the premise that Cave Creek is not Phoenix a lot of the things that we still have up here that we take for granted Wells septic underground electric utilities all of these have been decided by codes and governing officials and so forth so today probably the most important remnant of early Cave Creek is that we have cottage industries everybody here can do activities on their property that you would never see in Scottsdale Phoenix or Fountain Hills and there's definitions in the code of what a cottage business is and we have a lot of interesting interpretations of what Cottage businesses are up here whether it's a bed and breakfast or a repair or things in between so Cave Creek is eccentric and eclectic like it's always been described because it is the antithesis of what was where everybody came from so we have this Remnant dark sky up here and yes we're losing it to the light bleeding over the top of Black Mountain for me as someone involved in the town over the years dark sky didn't mean an esoteric certificate from an international organization it's kind of intriguing but our lighting code was boosted many years ago and one of the things that I love best that I think is effective without trampling the right of people to make an honest commercial living with tourism is no interior lit lights and we had that recently with Dairy Queen who's been here along as than probably I have but they installed a new light which was interior lit and the lighting coat of several that's been corrected the lighting coded several years ago you would drive through Cave Creek at night and it would look like movies about the 1930s all the lights were overhead shining down and I came to the meetings with the dark sky reps and you know you think you understand the concept of what's being discussed here not so much from a public policy standpoint but from a quality of life standpoint I'll wrap this up it just indulge me for a second uh Bruce Arland and David Phelps who were in the room this evening worked with the Cave Creek Library and they went up there with their own design and Fabrication kind of as an experiment or demonstration and they shielded all the lights in the library parking lot and if you remember what it was before and what it is now it's a pretty traumatic difference the explanations that we had the those Community meetings where they talk about the lights going down that illumination is downward but sufficient the other thing is this Council was in favor of Illumination because they've installed three crosswalk sets of lights not only blinking on the ground but also street lights which come on when activated by the user and then go off afterwards this Council and probably the prior have put in more street lights than in recent years in cap Creek and when we get around to talking about streetscaping again I think everybody up here historically and currently would like to live long enough to see street lights not traffic lights street lights from one end of the commercial Corridor to the other and I bug the town manager all the time that if we make modifications here we can get some Street elimination along the walking path out there so um I know a lot of times how these things are perceived but the the core that the blood that runs through the veins of people that live in this town is not everywhere else and that includes this maybe it's naive but this hope and wish to try to save what's left of the dark sky if you go up to the annual celebration of spur Cross Ranch you have no idea how dark the town still is until they have the astronomers with their laser lights showing different planets and things so it may be Fool's erand with the semiconductor plant and 177,000 houses being built and all that Urban infrastructure but cave Creek's best draw is where not everybody else they come up here in the weekend to have a burger they could have had in the valley because of the Mystique the Western culture what's left of the small town and so forth so I think there's an opportunity with dark sky to be examined in comparison to what the existing lighting code is in like Tree City USA to look to see if we can do what we're doing better to keep what it is people think they're coming up here for if we don't stay true to what we came up here for why is somebody going to come all the way up in the sky airport with their family for a dinner with sawdust on the floor or FL Royal steaks or whatever if they can't walk the town if they can't experience what they think is the authentic experience so in our future I think is street lights which is more lighting but the kind of lighting where we need it the most which is to enhance and protect The Pedestrian experience so thank you for the time as we I I want to respond to what uh councilman augers had to say uh with regard to where we are now uh we looked at Dark Skies a number of years ago the council and as a result of the actions that were taken then I borrowed a meter from Dark Skies I went around to approximately a dozen places in town we have a Baseline and that's a part of the information that will go to uh the committee so you know we we know where we were it was about 5 years ago and so we can look at that and see where we've gone but again that's something that goes to the committee if we approve going forward with the uh process of looking at it I'd like to make a motion we vote on this right now okay I'm gonna make I'm gonna make uh any else Stephen that you heard uh otherwise thank you much thank you mayor thank you vice mayor thank for all your hard work on this okay I'm gonna make the motion uh I move that the that the town manager be directed to proceed with the zoning text amendments related to The Outdoor Lighting Provisions to enable the town of Cave Creek to become a dark sky Community second okay uh as the proposer I get the first comments and uh it's obvious that that we need more meetings and uh more education because a lot of things that we hear tonight from the people and I'm not on you are where you are but I'd really urge everyone in the audience to attend in the meetings we've had a number of them already and there are more coming up especially at the Planning Commission to learn what exactly it is and when the when the text comes out which I presume will be at for the planning uh commission is to take a look at that and see what it says it's not it's not as dire as I have heard tonight it's it's nowhere near as dire um I voted to do this same thing what four five years ago and I intend to do that again tonight uh I think it's harmless um basically I don't think there will be much of a change I think it's harmless and it's a something that can be on the town and uh will it protect our skies as councilman council member augen said we got Phoenix just over Black Mountain it's going to be kind of tough but I can still see not the Milky Way but I can still see the dippers council member you're up I look I I think the more public opinion that we get better I mean I love the first amendment I love when people speak I'm glad that we had a whole I'm glad we had a whole bunch of people well I suppose if I turn it on it'd be better uh I like the first amendment the Constitution I like people speaking I like the fact that we have uh people speaking on both sides of the issue I mean you you can't come to a good conclusion on something unless you have an honest debate and I think this is great and I think we ought to move forward there's going to be more opportunity uh to debate at the Planning Commission and then uh if it gets past the Planning Commission comes to us there'll be at least two readings where we have another opportunity for that so I mean I I just think this is a this is a good way of running things and at the end of the day people either will either vote for it or they won't but that's part of our Democratic process and I think it's all good other comments from Council thank you mayor uh just a comment that I think this is the right step in the process to Shar information about dark skies and what's important in our lining ordinances uh we need cooperation between neighbors and cooperation between businesses and residents but we also need a safe community that people feel like they can use their property uh in a safe and preferred way uh but I think uh moving forward with the Planning Commission review uh and looking at our ordinances in detail first just the lighting ordinance but there are other ordinances too that need our attention to keep us as a cooperative Community thank you others okay this uh we'll have a Voice vote on this all in favor of the motion signify by saying I I I opposed motion carries 70 we're on to we're on to agenda item number one is Council discussion possible ratification additional costs of $5,000 for annual Financial audit services good evening mayor vice mayor council so um we're here asking for ratification of an additional $5,000 for our annual Financial audit um in the last meeting to council we had the presentation of the the final audit report the annual comprehensive financial report and there were some things that we discussed at that time about some changes and how things were presented and part of the thing was that the Auditors assumed that it would just be status quo um not really knowing that I was going to be coming on board and looking at things um with the the years of experience that I have and so they underestimated how much the audit would cost and so um they asked us to split that difference with them a 50/50 for the additional 5,000 so we're asking you to ratify that questions from Council um is public comment uh I have no one wishing to speak on this um want to make a motion I approv we ratified the additional uh cost of 5 ,000 for the annual Financial uh audit Services second okay this is financial so we're require roll call vote council member fredman yes council member Maguire yes council member rhs I council member Alberton I council member Driscoll yes Vice May Royer yes mayor Morris I motion to carry 70 We R number two ratification of the action of the Town manager authorized Gonzalez asphalt to construct two pedestrian Crossings of Cave Creek Road for a total of $4,371 189 mayor and Council uh thank you for hearing this we wanted to move ahead with the uh three pedestrian Crossings the one was already in uh we required some concrete work to be done in preparation uh hopefully by the end of this week those two other C uh two other cross will be activated uh you've probably noticed The Pedestrian uh Crossings the concrete work has been put in and uh we'd like to uh rather than make it two separate projects we chose to make it one project which then uh requires the ratification of the action questions public comment mayor I'm sir it's all about safety okay have no public comment on this it okay so all right Joe you get to make the motion then um CH staff recommends that the council okay uh staff recommends that The Count Council moves to ratify the action of the Town manager in approving the work performed by Gonzalez asphalt related to pedestrian safety just add totally $ 4,372 189 totaling 4,372 189 second uh second to Cynthia disco comment pretty simple I mean the town and the city and Maricopa County are growing people are coming up here it's been discussed all night I know there's been some accidents um that have happened with between people walking across to the bars and stuff we need to do this cythia I'm just completing the project is uh what's important at this time additional comments we had two Alternatives three Alternatives that came from your how when we looked at this before one of the Alternatives was not doing anything and I think probably we we agree we need to do something a second alternative was to install the lights and which we passed and which we're doing now the third alternative was to put in what are called table bumps they're quite different than the kinds of uh speed bumps that we're used to I have driven over the table bumps and and maybe we'll need to discuss that some point in the future but today what we're we're looking at is this specific uh project and and I hope it works correct we've already purchased we' already purchased the lights and the flashing beacons uh they will be erected um we have the gentleman scheduled to come out either Wednesday or Thursday of this week to um do the programming and erect them so they should be operational by this weekend and again they they will light up when you when a pedestrian presses the button they will light up the crosswalk and then they go off after the cross after when they're no longer needed there questions uh public comment no comment on this item okay so uh I have one last question uh H will this be accomplished before bike week uh hopefully it'll be accomplished before this weekend Oh the contract the concrete is already in place you're ratifying the action of the Town manager to go forward with it so the concrete has been put in the crosswalks have been obled and the new ones have been installed and so all we're waiting on currently uh we have to wait 30 days before Gonzalez can put the thermop plastic on the crosswalks they're temporary painted but um we're just waiting on the uh solar uh contractor to come in and install the lights which will happen this week okay good other comments okay this is financial council member Maguire yes council member rhods hi council member auberon council member joll yes council member Freedman yes vice mayor Royer yes mayor Morris I motion carries 70 and we are on to uh item number three Council discussion first reading of ordinance number 02025 d01 aming the town code title 3 Administration chapter 37 revenue and finance sub chapter purchasing section 37.2 procedure generally addressing expenditure thresholds for the town manager and procedures for change orders good evening again so um we just had two items on the agenda that directly relate to um these changes that we're recommending for the town code for purchasing practices um it's been um almost 10 years ago since the threshold for what needs to come to council for Approved was increased from 10,000 to 25,000 and based on today's standards that's really pretty low um I went through did some research and looked at the cities and towns that had population I went all the way up to even 40,000 on on my research that I did that was 64 of the 91 cities and towns um that meet that threshold so um I sent out uh an email asking for information um some responded a lot of times that's how it is you get a few responses I went through and researched and looked at the uh Municipal codes of each one of of those that did not respond um some of them so of those 64 there was not information available um in 18 of those in their codes some of them what they do is they just simply refer to a purchasing policy that is a separate document um so that was not available U for me to look at those the threshold so I saw thresholds of 100,000 or more um as what was going to council from six of those municipalities I have them listed there in your staff report um those include tolison paig Sedona Paradise Valley Douglas and no Gallas there was one municipality that had a threshold of 75,000 that was um Clarkdale and then there were 14 that had thresholds of 50,000 or more um and those um ranged from as small as Jerome and as large as Kingman um for those when I did send out the email asking for the information for the municipalities I got multiple um request of I'd like to know what happens and what you information you get because they are wanting to consider increases in theirs as well so um the amount that you just appr approved for um Gonzalez asphalt for the uh crosswalks if we rais this that would not have needed to come to council at all it there wouldn't need to be a ratification it could have just simply been an approval by the town manager um the other aspect of what is U proposed in the change to the town code is related to change orders so right now the code is silent to change orders um some of those when I did the research I could not find anything related to what their change order policy was the ones that I did find something it it um typically was 10,000 or sorry 10% um with caps from as low as 10,000 that was Miami up to 100,000 which was tallison so the uh agenda item just before when I asked for ratification of the additional cost for the audit that could have fallen within this as well um with the proposed changes so what we're proposing um with the changes and if Council wants to change anything it's completely up to you but um I put in there the 100,000 for the town manager approval and on the change orders so internally um any change orders that would need to be done up to that threshold of the Town manager's approval of the 100,000 um would be covered um administratively and then anything over that 100,000 um we would look at the accumulative amount of what the original contract amount was and the lesser of either 10% or 100,000 so basically that would cover all the way up to a contract say if we had something for a million dollars then the 10% would be the 100,000 which would be that cap if it was a contract for a million5 then um It could only go up to that 100,000 anything above that would have to come um to council so it can vary and um as it we just asked for approval of a change order of $5,000 um I can't remember it was the last meeting or meeting before that um asked asked Council to approve um a ratification of expenditure of 11,000 for the fire engine that there was some modifications that Jim had talked about um when he did his visit um um and so that was another very minor amount that we had come to council for so um if there's any questions about anything so I don't have any problem with the 100,000 okay I think that's smart business I would like um I don't know if we put it in the code or not but I would like that anytime the town manager has to do this he comes back we get a notification somehow that I had to spend more money money I mean I'm not concerned about the dollar amount sure but I just think I don't want to see you driving a Tesla plaid I can assure you I wouldn't be driving a Tesla plaid um good point and I I want to just let the council know just before the meeting um uh the mayor and I were doing our um agenda review and um he had questions it wasn't concerns it was more questions like what you're bringing up and so what I'd like for your consideration tonight is just to address the city manager or the town manager threshold what I have the authority to expend and then the change order contract Amendment part it's the second part of this tonight we can come back because I think um the mayor has some ideas I've heard from you and if anybody else between now and then probably two Council meetings from now will come back with a proposal that flushes it out a little bit more with either some controls or communication on how that would work and if you want to have a cap like you want maybe it's 50% of the manager approval right now or you know what the the new threshold would be I have no problem with the threshold okay okay I just want to make sure that when you exercise that that you'll let the council know right not a big deal okay other questions well actually actually I think it is a big deal I I think that if we're going to give him approval and escalate his amount of approval level then let him do his job I think that you know we're we're trying to avoid becoming too bureaucratic here um getting out of being an overwhelming bureaucracy and so I think that we should let him do his job give him the additional approval and let him do his job other other questions just comment mayor thank you um I would just like to make sure the reporting back uh transparency uh it comes to Council on a regular basis uh we have the overview of budget budget items uh where we expect to see items spent uh but giving the town manager The Authority for the change orders as well as um the higher purchasing level uh seems prudent given our C our current budget I'm in agreement with Cynthia Tom's want to join in questions I don't think so I expand it from this previous explanation so who is a purchasing agent why why is that language used rather than a town title so that is in the code that way and it is defined as the town manager or the town man manager design okay thank you um I I have a I think one of the biggest opportunities the town has is in construction management cost control and time I I'm I'm uh that's uh one of my major issues going forward um our projects are going way over budget way over time they take too long to get going too long to engineer too long to construct and uh uh they're a lot higher than we expect that's not exactly what's in here and we talked about that today um but uh I I think we can do things smarter I'm not I'm generally in favor of this with the reporting I think the reporting is important that that's a standard in business was when you deviate from something you report it up and that takes care of the internal control audit situation um but um we have a lot of projects maintenance projects that this makes sense you go out something's broken underground you can't see it you go out and start digging and you don't know what it's going to cost you but we have these approvals these lumpsum approvals and uh then we have all this paperwork trying to clean it up because you can't predict the scope unlike a construction project you can Define the scope so you have scope projects and projects that you cannot scope and I agree with this on the projects that you cannot scope but uh change order control is one of the critical elements in construction management and I I'm not going to prove it for this so I'm going to work in the meantime after this first reading to make this to where we can uh make progress on construction management cost and budg and schedule control but um I'm going to vote Yes on the first reading here um with the idea that we' tune this up after we mayor second I I think um we we appreciate increase in the threshold and also trying to help us with contract amendments and contract um change orders um and so I think what we'll do is we'll work internally on a process of trying to communicate when those you know occasions occur I I really don't think it's something you want to really see if they're you know very small dollar amount so I think we'd probably want to say you know know for say 10,000 and more that's to me would be something you'd want to know about and I think we'll work on a process whether that be a consent agenda item or it's some other so we can keep the transparency up so um to me this is a very significant change tonight that really helps my staff and I move things along not have to wait and schedule things for Council meetings um but we're not giving away the farm I'm still going to keep making sure that we're getting best deals and and trying to um stay within um our procurement code which has very specific um regulations in it on how to procure services and goods so um and it contracts for construction great I have a question to that effect um have we thought about hiring a procurement officer you're so funny I'm sorry for laughing because tonight our finance director I did request one through her through the budget process for next year and she was going to bring that up as part of her presentation I said let's not complicate things by bringing that up so she was right I was wrong but yes we have a request for next fiscal year and you'll get a full vetting of that when we go through the budget process for your due consideration good because I think that would alleviate some of the concerns that that the mayor has um in terms of being able to better manage all of our purchasing that goes along with all our right now it's it's very challenging because each Department's doing their own and then Finance has their role which is kind of the um regulatory arm to make sure that the money is budgeted they'll still have that responsibility but with a procurement person they're going to make sure that we're not splitting purchases we're we're abiding by state law running things through the attorney um so I I think it does make it a lot more efficient and um it's probably about six or seven years ago where I came from previously that I had asked for the position and made a difference night and day and with the software that they have now um it really you're you're getting almost like two or three people for one person because it automates a lot of that um uh operating procedures okay good great okay um ready for motion uh do have public comment public comment Kathleen Bay oh okay welcome Kathleen sorry you just had good stuff on the agenda today um thank you again I had concerns about it um I understand that things are more expensive in today's day and age you don't know how expensive something is until you have to go take care of something and I do I do know that emergencies come up and you can't wait two weeks to have approval from the council um and I'm concerned about oversight and I'm concerned about budgeting it's not really a trust issue so don't take it that way but it's just I and to your point things do go over overrun and they do take longer um and your budget can get thrown out of wax so fast if you don't pay attention to it and you know the worst use of your own money is having somebody else spend it so maybe a 100 in my thought 100 might might have seemed a little bit too high if 10 years ago we went from 10 to 25 that's 150% now you're you're asking for 400% you want to go from 25 to 100 um I think that's a big step and for the change orders you gave an example of if it's a million dollar project and you have a 10% change order that's 100 Grand that's another 100 grand out of the budget I don't know how many million dollar projects we have out there right now but um it can just throw your budget and I'm concerned about that budget I'm real big on budgeting I do it in my own personal life I don't understand the government why they have a hard time with it you can't spend more than you have you know so I that's just that would be what my thoughts were and when I heard that everybody was okay with this I was like H we have to here and stand here and say something in in opposition so I appreciate that you had said what you had said because things things can get out of hand real fast and the other thing when you went out and petitioned for information from the other towns to see how they handled it did you get feedback from them how it went for them you know did it at the end of the year they had their budget these changes came up these issues came up what did the budget look like at the end of the year was it an overrun did they manage it how was it managed those are just my thoughts thank you you Mr Mayor if I could comment whenever an expenditure item comes before you there are three elements you need to consider one is Authority two is budget and third is procurement this only deals with authority this doesn't amend the budget process or the procurement process so some of the concerns you had about instruction that's going to be automatically protected because title 34 will rigorously apply this doesn't amend the budget he can only he only has the authority up to the budget Authority so this this is just one of three that you're approving okay um anybody want to make the motion yeah I'll make the motion um this is a motion in support of ordinance number Z2 Z you want to start with I move to approve yeah that's I didn't support of move I move okay I move to approve ordinance number 02025 d01 amending the town code title three Administration chapter 37 revenue and finance sub chapter purchasing section 37.2 procedure generally addressing expenditures thresholds for the town uh for the town manager and procedures for change orders second and go ahead Tom uh yeah I I I I think if it gets abused the town manager is in trouble he needs to make judgments we need to give him some Freedom th this is just the first reading so that there will probably be some I've got some changes to it in in the meantime that I want to uh make motions on next time uh but this is just the first reading we'll have another shot at this at the second reading and the second reading is is the is the approval meeting so um other comments from Council yeah I think that $100,000 is a large amount the problem that I've seen with Cave Creek ever since I moved here is everything costs more we seem to get the Cave Creek discount which is 20% higher than Phoenix or Scottdale or any you know even over an Anthem for whatever reason people don't want to come up and work here and it's it's we're out of the way so it's going to cost more we're a small town so it's going to cost more and unfortunately that's just kind of the way it is um things cost more here because we can't get the economies to scale that other people can so from my perspective I don't like having to approve that amount but on the other hand I don't see any other real way around it because we do pay more for just about everything and it's not by choice I mean it's just we're kind of out at the edge of Maricopa County and people don't want to have to come up here for the small projects relatively small projects that we do so it it costs more and whenever there's a problem that costs more too so it's it's it's we're kind of in a chicken and egg situation here not happy about it but it's necessary the comments joke so if this doesn't work out we could always nip it in the butt or future councils can too so I think this is Voice vote there's no money Changing Hands U so with that um all those in favor say I I I opposed motion carries 70 and we are on to item number four Council discussion possible approval of the first reading of ordinance O 225-233 Town Council addressing regular council meeting days regular meeting times and Council agenda item voting procedures good evening mayor and Council uh this item coming before you um is again as you said just the first reading um so this does uh come to you um because it's part of the Strategic plan and a little bit of background so our meetings currently are held on the first and third Mondays of each month um beginning at 6 PM uh they may start earlier if there's executive session or if uh there are other needs uh of councel if the day happens to be a holiday which many of our holidays do fall on Mondays then the meeting is automatically moved to the next day at the same time um at this time our town attorney um has limited availability when those meetings do fall on Tuesdays um recently we had a council Retreat where discussions on proposed changes did come up and um the discussion to change the dates uh to Tuesdays and the times of regular meetings um was discussed and the um idea was to also have more efficient meeting so council did direct staff to uh bring forward these items for additional review and consideration and possible adoption so proposed changes are changing the current time of the meeting from 6: pm to a start time of 4:30 if this goes forward with the first and second reading that proposed U meeting time would start uh change would start in may the change in meeting days from the 1 and third Mondays of each month to the 1 and third Tuesdays would begin um in September uh additionally um to also work on efficiency of our Council meetings currently uh roll call votes are required for any ordinance and for any item that has a financial consideration uh this proposed change would still require at the minimum of Voice vote um but if requested a roll call vote at the direction of the mayor can be had this would allow ow items uh to be placed on consent agenda for example the ratification items um or anything that is uh regular business potentially could be placed on consent agenda um mayor and Council would still have the opportunity to pull items off consent agenda as well so staff recommends approval of this first reading and uh second reading if this passage passes would um come forward on the 17th of March do you have any questions questions so why why are we not having a roll call vote for financial items so the roll call vote um it would be right now it's a roll call vote is required for every uh Financial item but this language changes it a Voice vote is still required um and we can do roll call votes if needed or as requested I would prefer to have a roll call vote if we set a dollar threshold well I think what would happen is if if you let's say that we had a six to one someone said I I I and then someone said No at that point you'd go to a roll call vote correct if it's not unanimous then it automatically I would have to call for unanimous is the only thing you can any other questions question is that in writing somewhere change the open meeting law currently the open meeting law was drafted to say you had to take a roll call on everything and so what I've advised my clerks that in the event of unanimity her notes will say there was unanimous vote and you don't need to have a roll call so whenever you have less than unanimity you need a roll call the AG the legislation drafted to require a roll call it became meaningless when it was all unanimous and so what I've told my clerks is the minute say this that any all unanimous votes were all votes by unanimous uh anything less than unanimity required a roll call I believe it's is also state law that when the fact a couple years ago yeah is is this out of the norm for cities or do most other people what do other towns do most do uh put the majority of items on consent agenda there are certain items that um are hot buttons for the coun um and those items are typically IND done as individual items and many times roll call for those items yeah um and and actually a lot of communities are doing what's called electronic voting so you go ahead the the mayor calls for the vote you put your yes yay nay and it either lights up on a board or on the televisions um and so it's recording your vote that way that's that's actually pretty common in a lot of different cities and so they're they're not even doing the voice votes now procedurally a lot of times Mayors will sometimes on maybe hot button issues want to get the record out there even though electronic voting still could take place just for the people the council members to to be on record on the recording and in the minutes very clearly what their record of their vote was even though electronic voting does the same thing so then but um this is actually more the norm what we're proposing tonight we're kind of I I have never seen it anywhere else except for here on all financial matters requiring a roll call vote that is pretty unusual from what I've seen other questions okay uh public comment there is run run to your other by the way you're not limping you're walking very well Kathleen B hello again um so I needed clarification if you move the time to 4:30 if you have an executive session does that mean that's at 3:30 and then the meeting's at 4:30 so because we have some council members who work and they also have some other commitments um we had talked about having the executive session following the meeting since we're starting so much earlier it's it's challenging and then the mayor and I for instance we always always have our one-on-one meetings just prior to council it throws that all off when there's e sessions so I would suggest and I think what we talked about at the um Council Retreat is that we would have the E sessions following the meeting okay so that means I I guess I was thinking that you would have your executive at 4:30 and then the meeting would be at 5:30 versus 6 because for those of us who work and those of us who are concerned citizens and love this town I like coming here as much as I can to hear what's going on that's the only way you know what going on with your town and 4:30 does present a challenge I know for me to rush to get here um and also I don't know who else it would be but just I'm just putting it out there I don't have a problem with the Tuesdays there's only a couple of Monday holidays but I don't have a problem with the Tuesdays we need to work forward and and be cooperative and everything but I just the earlier time does present challenges for myself and I don't know how many other people so and the consent item is just for finan ual things to put them on a consent agenda um so what the council discussed just previously um to you coming up was when we have like a an award of a contract um right now our town code requires the council to do a roll call vote so each council member is called on and for them to give their individual vote um what's pretty common is in others communities that Award of a contract council member makes a motion a second uh makes a second motion and then it's up for the um vote and it's all yay or there might be one or two that might say no or nay what the town attorney just said is under the state law when that happens then the clerk has to um have them all by roll call um give their their vote and so it's it's clear for the record who voted yes and who voted no so that's what we're talking about so it's different than the consent agenda like going back and I hate to bring up a sore topic I suppose um when the trails were agreed upon it was to be like a consent agenda where the public didn't have any input on it I was wondering if it was in along the same lines if there's some sort of a purchase that might come up and it would be good to hear public comment yeah so that's that doesn't apply in this case here it was different and fact since I become manager and that was my very person Council night um we had that and I've instructed staff we will not have any more Trail dedications set are on consent as long as I'm here yeah and I appreciate you explaining that thank you very much and that's I'm done for tonight so you guys have a good evening okay we are ready for Tom yeah I have a question this is for the town manager possibly councel um sometimes do we have executive sessions that are pertinent to something that's on the agenda and that the executive session would help us inform us as to how to vote on an agenda item if that happens what we so we've changed our practices on that and we will not place an item on the agenda um for an executive session discussion and then for an action that same night we typically have that at the next meeting that way you're not feeling pressured or you know it gives you ample time to prepare yourself now under state law you are able to any item that's on the agenda our agendas have a a statement that the council can convene an e session on any of the items that are already on the agenda so that is a possibility um if the council chose to do that thank you mayor I'm prepared to make a motion just I'm sorry um I just wanted to ask rhetorically to the council we 30 sounds like a peculiar time it's not on the hour would 5:00 p.m.

just not be as acceptable as 4:30 I'm sorry I was asking the town manager um because to be here at 4:30 you have to allow travel time I mean I guess I'm the only person up that works N9 to5 but 430 is kind of odd because it's half all you know it's I mean would five be too much to request so we're we're open to it this is your business meeting and so at the exe I'm sorry at the uh Council um Retreat there were times being thrown out and I heard even much earlier and then um I might be mistaken but I thought the finance director said something about you know when when she was in sodona and I might be even mistaken on that but I thought she said that they started like at 4:30 and so then it no one really said too much more after that so we kind of settled on 4:30 it again it's up to the council so if your choice the majority wants to change it to a different time it's it is your business meeting well I'm I'm probably in the minority and I don't want to impose my standards on others it's just that the town hall is open from what 8 to six yeah seven to six so um oh seven to six well the I'm sorry I was just corrected there's a lot of is that are there till six but the counter staff and the key staff are there till five well it's a 4-day work week right so how does the hour how do the hours spread over four days the the key is the door that's not in compliance with fsla he said in parentheses but I too loud um I just saw 4:30 well well you know it's not because people have tried that at the state capital so we have to man yeah okay um again I'll drop it if nobody agrees with this it's just five is after work for most people who have conventional hours and it would provide travel time availability to get here by 5: but I'm not holding myself up as a victim I certainly could be here by 4:30 we have about a third of the town that works and they're working age people and it will Prov it it could potentially inconvenience them I think 5:00 might be a better start time I don't think it really a half hour isn't going to impend on us about anything I think that just might be a better SP start time the 4:30 time would limit the availability of people who are productive helping out Society thank you uh to to get here so I think in terms of getting the best council members I like the five o'clock hours of compromise um okay well um we'll have to uh want to make a motion you can make the motion putting any time in there you want to so whoever gets to make the motion who would like to make it I think C was make the motion as is and then it can be amended okay make but you don't have to yeah on here that's good procedure mayor Travis would like to make a comment sorry would like oh okay I'm sorry we did com sorry they've already called for the question procedurally they're they're in we're not oblig are we obligated no Okay C proceed thank you Mr Mayor uh I move to approve first reading of ordinance number 0 202-02 amending town code title 3 Administration Chapter 30 Town Council okay is there a second or is there a motion to amend I move to amend from 4:30 to 5m call for your second I'm sorry is there a second on this second okay I move to amend from 4:30 to 5: PM okay is it necessary to read the whole uh the whole amend uh motion because we we didn't have the whole motion so it seems to me you have to have the whole motion and then do you could just say so moved as okay in the agenda yeah okay and we have a motion to amend well we've got to approve the motion to amend needs a second okay is there I'll second it okay so we're gonna have a vote on the motion to amend and uh okay all right that makes sense so we'll have vote on the original motion with the motion to amend and um if that fails then we'll we'll go back so all those in favor of the motion at 5 o' signify we saying I I oppos motion carries so it's 5 o' you okay with that Cynthia yes but we didn't discuss the amendment oh oh I'm sorry okay well would you well we have to reconsider yeah that's fine for the first reading yeah okay okay okay uh so we are on to uh item five yep Council discussion possible approval of extension of the intergovernmental agreement between the town of Cave Creek and Maricopa County Sheriff's Office through the end of the fiscal year yes mayor council um before you is just a request at the request of Maricopa County Sheriff's Office we're very close to finalizing the details on the latest IGA um but they would like the formalities since we've only done this verbally um for the extension of the current um well for the uh intergovernmental agreement that we have with meropa County for um the sheriff's Services um they would like for us to do this prior to us coming back and I anticipate we'd be back in April with the final IG that would be a multi-year um agreement so um there's really nothing that this is doing we've already received our um our forecast or the bees for next year and our law enforcement services with the same level services that we currently have um are going down by 100,000 which is mostly due to the um reduction that the county has received on its um Public Safety Retirement System contributions so we're benefiting from that because the county has financed and paid down um what their unfunded liability is so we're benefiting that indirectly for what our costs are for next year but this is really only before you just to do an extension that is through June 30th of 2025 okay U I'll make do we questions and then we have then we have public comment we miss that this time any questions about this to uh to man okay public comment no one wishing to speak I move that we extend the current IG through 30 June 2025 for the Marico County Sheriff's Office second okay kind of a no brainer we've only got one bid that's right that's right okay other the comments from Council just one the June 30 date was not in the motion so it's if you by you approving the agreement it's actually an agreement okay didn't want to limit ourselves in case it goes beyond that you don't see that as an issue okay any other comments okay all those in favor signify by saying I I opposed motion carries 70 we have no staff department reports tonight so our our uh is is finished and without objection we will journ the meeting