Cave Creek approves Dark Skies certification study, advances state trust land acquisition strategy

Cave Creek Arizona Monday April 15 2024 meeting is now called to order may we have the roll call please council member Aon here council member bunch here council member ala here council member Maguire pres council member rhods here mayor Morris present and vice mayor Royer is out Scott danne would you lead us in the Pledge of Allegiance United States of America One Nation God indivisible with liy and justice for all uh public announcements I don't have any or does council have any public announcements i' like to bring forth seeing none um and seeing a full room I'm going to uh uh read a uh an opening statement that we read from time to time first of all welcome to the Cade Creek Town council meeting I'm Mayor Bob Morris before we begin our meeting I'd like to clarify how it's conducted in specifically the public comment portion of the meeting public comment is welcome there is one this is one of many ways to inform your local government representatives and staff of issues that are important to you or to suggest improvements in the way we conduct the town's business our goal is to have a welcoming and friendly atmosphere between our community members and local government speakers reminded in in advance to address their comments to the mayor and councel and not to the audience Arizona open meeting law governs these activities and greatly restricts how meetings are conducted and how council members communicate outside of the meeting there are two opportunities for the public to speak first it call to the public immediately following these remarks you will have an opportunity to speak to council staff and all those participating and watching via Zoom there can be no discussion by Council of items raised but we can direct staff to investigate Arizona law requires that all discussed items be on a published and advertised agenda so all parties have notice of potential action speakers must come to the podium and speak directly to the council speaking to the staff or to other audience members is not permitted please speak clearly into the microphone to begin state your name and address for the record you will have three minutes to speak on the relevant subject you will note a set of three lights on the podium green means you are you are within your three minutes it turns yellow as your time is about to expire and red when your time is expired at that point please expeditiously conclude your thoughts the second way to publicly communicate with us is during the public comment or public hearing section on an specific agenda item speaking is conducted the same way as called to the public at the microphone in limited three minutes if you wish to speak during either of these opportunities please take a form on the table near the door over here fill out your information please hand it to our town clerk Teresa Reza sitting to the left of the council members she will call your name when it's time for you to to participate thank you for attending our council meeting and taking the time to participate and and express yourselves this is democracy in action U with that we will have called the poy David Phelps good evening mayor and Council David Phelps Cape Creek resident so for the last five years I've been speaking to the councils uh regarding preservation funding within the town's budget during the budget cycle reviews and approvals first few years we've got very little response um third year we got when that things had changed in the formulation for funding preservation in the budget got the information to that wherein the budget was changed in 2017 to take money that was earmarked for preservation funding uh from the half cent spur across sales tax and it was um uh diverted to The Cave Creek uh water Improvement uh Capital fund last year we finally got to a momentous time wherein a number of council members after I had asked that the recension of the 2017 um diversion be discussed possibly rescinded so that we could continue uh funding preservation and uh then in in uh conversations this year so far it seems that we've taken a step backwards where we're not going to have that conversation and I think that we will find out tonight that the cause to do that is ever more present and the need is now so we don't really need months and months of delay we should have this uh conversation as soon as possible and in fact mayor and Council we need to know as voters where you stand on the Arizona state land plan for purchase prior to the early ballots being dropped we need to know this for clarity so if you're not absolute if you're not for open space preservation purchase let us know just tell us I'm not for it or I'm shaky on it I can't make up my mind on it any of those answers is acceptable as long as that's your answer because us trying to second guess where you're coming from during this pivotal time uh is not a benefit to you and it's not a benefit to us uh that's my comments for tonight thank you for allowing me to speak thank you Scott danne Scott danne 5924 East Mountain Reserve tribe uh mayor council members um I just wanted to uh come up here tonight I usually not up here but I'm up here to support uh my friend Bruce and I thought I'd bring this up and put on public record uh 15 years ago my neighborhood 16 homes did Aida gift and turned over some roads to the town of Cave Creek prior to that we spent $50,000 of our own money to bring these roads up to the required standards of Cave Creek since that time Cave Creek has done literally nothing to those roads you can get on Google Maps and it looks like a jigsaw puzzle up there we currently have a budget in this town that we're looking at that exceeds out of some small countries I would like to get our roads repaired sealed up and brought back to the standards that we were asked to put them to 15 years ago thank you thank you Janet Moore Janet Moore 7439 East Ridge Crest um this preservation has always been very dear to me it's something that I have wanted to see get done for many years I brought up times when the when the bond was low that we should buy it then because that was 3% and now inflation has caused the prices to go up which is no surprise because land is going to go up so now it's going to cost more and I think that the town needs to really pay back that money that we swept out of the preservation fund I I believe it's between three and $4 million do that we could use for preservation and I think we have to pay the back with interest um I think that's the only fair thing to do um and isn't it ironic that the money that was set aside for preservation actually helped our development so it's time to pay it back they that money saved us it's time to pay it back so that we can have that preservation and not have the property get sold off and and I know everyone thinks they're saved by the zoning but I don't I don't trust that I trust that any Governor that comes in there can change that zoning if they want to thank you thank you you no additional speakers okay name for a call to the public I have what was your name Kathy Jones you're on for for dark size which is the first item this is for Call of the P thank you and good evening Mark Hazelton 39617 North Schoolhouse Road it's been my privilege to live in Creek for 44 years before this Council came to be before the town was incorporated I was on something called the cap Creek Improvement Association since then I've also been involved with almost every conservation effort within the town I appreciate the fact that you're all volunteers just as many of us are volunteers so I hoping we can find some common ground David has uh mentioned some of uh some of the items that I would as well as Janet I'll try to keep within your three minute time limit uh where we may disagree is on priorities and funding I hope that you will support Mr arand and dark skies because that's another issue that will change immediately and in the long term if we have thousands of new homes built which will be the result if 5,500 Acres of state land is not preserved we'll lose our quality of life our Dark Skies we have tremendous pressure coming at us look at the Taiwan semi plant 10 miles away we have a rare opportunity however to choose our future this year's budget seems to show the same diversion that David mentioned I've heard from the mayor that he didn't think there was anything worth saving that was available I will point out that last week dickm dyk's original ranch with 80 acres on the creek just sold $2.8 million two 12 other Acres just closed at 72nd in Continental Mountain Road I'm sure you'll be hearing some uh disputes over that coming zoning if the state lands aren't preserved thousands of new homes will be built we will need exponentially more infrastructure so I don't think it's an either or I understand you you put money into perhaps very much needed improvements I'm not an expert I can't say I can tell you when those additional homes are built you will need exponentially more infrastructure growth for its own sake is the philosophy of cancer I know of four Parcels in private hands right now that contain thousand year old petrog I think of this as a failure of my myself if you're not aware of some of these opportunities let's get together form a committee three concrete I hope constructive ways to to move forward actions you could take tomorrow establish a Citizens Advisory board on state lands with dedicated staff resources as was done for the water issue two work to reinstate growing smarter if you don't know that was a uh program with State money matching grants it would make your your life a lot easier when it comes time to uh to try to purchase State lands with 5050 Cent dollar and there is a movement now among some towns and organizations to uh to uh reinstate that Mr Hazelton you're your three minutes are up would you please last Point finally and most urgently let's do the right thing restore funding to conservation anybody agrees thank you I I want to address one thing that that's a mischaracterization of my remarks uh we've had one opportunity come up uh to buy land and we took that opportunity 30 Acres at Spur cross I have not said anything else about any other land out there because we have not had those opportunities next I do not have any other speakers for a call to public I do have speakers for others oh okay oh it's over here you like to Carol Perry like Carol once you speak your three minutes and then fill your your card out afterwards and I have a couple people who said if I go 30 seconds over I have their time first we we don't operate that way Carol Perry 4944 East Sawmill Circle in the town of limits of Cave Creek and the first thing I need to do is from the heart thank all of you for the grant that you just gave to the Sonoran Art League in order to print the map for the hidden in the Hills Studio tour in November we are so grateful I speak for everyone all 600 members in the board thank you thank you thank you okay so mark and a few other people know all the numbers and the facts and the statistics so I'm just here to sort of pull on your heartstrings a little the reason we're asking and asking and asking again is that we're determined to preserve as much of this breathtaking heart stopping Sonoran Desert sensitive land and reparan habitat as is humanly possible and most critical of all in record time you see while we've been expecting to save the 5500 ACR of state trest land within the town for the last 14 16 years others have been working much harder at an acre an hour over 140,000 Acres have gone under the blade to development in that same period in mopa county and the reason we want Cave Creek to acquire this land is it so that we can preserve and protect it in perpetuity forever the thing about the desert we love is that it is so sensitive that whatever we do with it now it quite probably is how it's going to be forever from now in the desert if you rip it out tear it out knock it down it won't grow back next week or next year or maybe even ever you know the saying you're not in Kansas anymore this soran desert is extremely fragile we all know that since for many of us it is hard to imagine what we can't see I'm going to paint a quick picture yes most of us are fortunate enough to drive through some open space nearly every day and therefore most of us have experienced the jolt of Discovery when some long-known open space is suddenly bladed flat followed quickly by graded Lots walls and development and rooftops now take a look at the hills around us everywhere we are this evening and imagine driving here one day and finding every piece of wild untouched natural desert with its Myriad wild flowers plants rabbits Havalina coyotes and bobcats covered with some form of man-made structure or Surface you can be certain what is not acquired for preservation will be acquired for development that's the natural time proven consequence and is there ever one person here tonight that doesn't know just how fast we are growing Phoenix is projecting to be double in size by 2050 double the size of Phoenix in 2050 and they're knocking on our door and how imminently at risk is our desert at this moment we have to take steps to protect it now because very soon the economics will make this land so valuable for development only unlimited funds will be able to save it we have a small very finite window in time to permanently acquire and preserve our peace of this glorious rare Sonoran Desert and while we can be proud of our accomplishments of the past 25 years if we continue at this pace we will have saved less than 1% of what remains available so when we ask you to help us in our efforts to acquire and preserve another piece of our Sonoran Desert ask yourself is there anything Cave Creek could possibly buy that will the same or greater pleasure for all in our community our future Generations every single year for the rest of their lives Carol your your time is up would you conclude please I'm concluding we all need to invest whatever we can to ensure the future of this desert we love so much many of us have given our time from Trail building to grant writing our attention letters and calls to legislator since the very beginning of the push to save spur cross and even our money most of us here wrote those $400 checks 15 years ago believing that our contribution that day was going to make a difference forever you your children and all of theirs will come to reap the forever benefits of a Sor and desert saved last sentence if you ever feel we are asking again too much be glad that we are focused on the mission fulltime be glad we ask too often rather than too seldom because all too soon will come the last sound you want to hear our silence when we stop asking it's because it's too late thank you that the last one okay um next on the agenda is the uh Town manager report thank you mayor mayor and Council um just a few items to report to um the council um wanted to let you know that last weekend on Saturday we had our drive-through brush yard disposal event we had about 100 participants this time you'll recall the previous month we had about 38 so it was good to see um a significant Improvement in the number um again this is where our residents are able to clear their yards try to um have fire breaks and try to um improve the um properties for fire safety so I I would consider that a success also I just wanted to remind the public who were here and um the council that we have an open house um that will be held on April 23rd from 5: to 7:00 in the council chamber right here um for the proposed Morning Star Trail so we're hoping to um have a number of people show up and um the way that this will work is we'll make some uh prepared remarks and then we'll have some stations around the room where um we'll be able to staff those up and be able to have um people go to the stations that are of interest to them as far as the um the specific answers that they want um we'll also have a part of that um answers to frequently asked questions that we'll share with people so they'll have handouts that they could take with them so we're looking forward to that the thing I just wanted to share with the council and and probably for the council and the public is that you probably notice a little bit of a different change to the format to the council agenda tonight um in the past um we used to have sometimes Department reports that sometimes would just kind of be part of my report and then you'd see somebody coming up been talking about something unrelated to what the manager was reporting so we just kind of formalized this um other cities I've worked in this is how they do that um and it's actually a little bit better the way we have it this way because it's agenda sized and you really get into thorough discussion um for those items now again the target audience for that is really the council and it's for staff to be able to um to do that um and it's probably the closest thing that you would see other than having a work session on a particular topic but I just want to let you know that that's what we've done um starting tonight and you're not going to see the number of Department reports you see tonight it's pretty unusual to have that number on we'll likely have try to keep it to no more than one maybe two but because of this we've made these changes for tonight uh mayor and Council that's all I have for a report tonight thank you first on the agenda is the consent agenda um first is the approval of the January 4th 202 4 special council meeting minutes second is approval of the February 20th 24 2024 regular council meeting minutes third is the council discussion possible action to accept a 33 foot wide date of gift for the 54th Street rway through the McDonald's property located at 34680 North 54th Street Cave Creek Arizona 85331 is there a motion to accept the consent agenda so moved second all those in favor sign by saying I I opposed motion carries 60 next on the agenda is the council discussion possible direction to the town manager relating to the town's lighting ordinances that may result in Cave Creek becoming a dark sky Community presented by the town manager thank you mayor uh mayor and Council uh before you as a request as as the mayor read um for consideration of the town of Cave Creek to become a dark sky Community you recall two meetings ago on March 25th um resident by the name of Bruce Arland came up he is the head of Cave Creek uh dark sky and this is a nonprofit organization that advocates for um Dark Skies in our community and also um they're involved in doing a lot of public education um in our in our town and so he had presented to the council a a request for consideration of the council um approving some changes to our uh lighting ordinances so the council pretty much gave me the direction to come back at a future council meeting uh and which that's what I am doing tonight um due to the amount of staff time and effort that would be involved in this endeavor I wanted to make sure the council um provided some Direction on this before we' move forward um with that I'd like to kind of describe the um process that I've identified and then of course tonight it is your um prerogative to make adjustments or or um not go along with it you have obviously the options uh before you that you may make because it is for Council consideration so um basically the first is if you agree with this concept tonight the way that this process would work is that staff would review the proposed submitted revisions that we've received from The Cave Creek dark sky and we would look at our uh compare it to our current Town lighting ordinances um and the staff would do a review and they would also meet with the dark sky International um and try to verify where there might be some either discrepancies or not quite understanding um some things that they would like us to change then staff would then present the revised lighting ordinances to the Planning and Zoning commission for its review and possible recommended approval to the Town Council following that the Town Council would review and uh review the proposed changes to the lighting ordinances and consider taking action on the revised lighting ordinances finally the last step that I've identified would be that staff implements revised lighting um ordinances and works collaboratively with the Cave Creek dark sky organization in submitting an application to the dark sky International so that the town could uh receive the designation as a dark sky community that last piece just to make sure you understand it's not that we would be really collaborating but there are a couple pieces that um in my own experience how that has worked in another community and that is the um the local dark sky organization um in found Hills where I was when we became a dark sky Community um they were involved in the um what I would call the Outreach and public education and they did a lot of um uh activities that the town chose not to be involved in so that would be some aspect and that's why that application would be jointly worked on to make sure that the pieces that the town would not be involved in would be handled by the dark sky it's not relegating or delegating our Authority or um our uh responsibility for this it's really becoming a dark sky designated Community is really between the community or the town and the Dark Skies International Organization but there is a component that we probably would work with the local dark sky um organization to ensure that the application would have some of the pieces that relate to their organization um and that we would be involved more on the regulatory side and our ordinances and the enforcement with that I'd be happy to U answer any questions that the council may have regarding either the process or becoming a dark sky Community um thank you question from Council question what year was that gr out in Fountain Hills um it was about a 12 to 18mth process and the designation was received in I want to say January of 2018 just a just a comment um I I appreciate the approach and the outline that you've given us uh it's important to notice that we have asked to have some of our ordinance reviewed this fits perfectly with that part of our strategic planning so thank you I I agree with with council member El and I'd like to see maybe for the next few months we get more ordinances reviewed since we haven't reviewed a lot of them since we've been a town thank you I've I've noted that um excuse council member augeron said what I was originally going to say it's a process and I think we need to take a better look at this process we looked at it couple of years ago and there were some real problems with communication and I hope we can overcome those and I'd like to see us be a dark sky Community but it needs to be done in very carefully Ernie are you I got nothing to say um the one thing I think is missing here I uh we had this came before Council before and and was turned down I I voted for it for the becoming Dar guy uh being on that path and at the time the biggest complaint was the um the regulatory approach uh by dark sky and I I don't know what's in this I mean I that that's still the level of not and I suspect Council May the same way so what would you think of having uh between the when the staff reviews it and the staff presents it to the planning commission I really think that the council ought to understand what it's all about because right now I do not I I think that's a good idea and and uh I would be happy to direct staff to once they've done their research and they've looked at the ordinances and they have um the um the recommendations and what they would want to go forward with that we rather than going right to Planning and Zoning we come back to the council for you to check in with us and then we can then assuming council's okay then we would go with the process as I outlined so I I'm okay and I think that's a good suggestion okay um any more questions from Council see um we have a public comment on this so Bruce Arin thank you Bruce Arland Morning Star Road uh this is fascina fting it's been a long five years little over five years five years ago I brought before with Ernie Bunch who was mayor at the time an agenda item and it was called let us look at a nonbinding that's the key word in quotes non-binding resolution to investigate if we wanted to become a dark sky Town five years ago plus here we are five years ago it's not that it's not that complicated it's so simple the information has always been out there and now it's really out there here I am we turned in to Grady Miller and thank you very much Grady for champing bringing this to the uh to the agenda schedule and the mayor and everybody else here for consideration of a proposed rewrite of our current uh ordinances the lighting ordinances the documents that we turned into Grady Miller show the entire work product we've taken the town current Town lighting ordinances all right there right in black and white and with a work product in red blue and green you see every step of the way what we took the original current right now ordinance and what did we do we showed you everything everything for you to look at you can read it yourself we work with dark sky International who is the absolute Pinnacle of the world's dark sky lighting guidelines and and the 30 communities around the world who are already Certified Six here in Arizona which obviously we want to join Arizona is the uh is the is the top of the uh United States dark sky area I'm running out of time darn it let me just say very quickly I've gone too long as usual there are so vote Yes for the discussion which is all all this is to go ahead and do that research there are three letters that you have one is from the director of The L Observatory you have it in your hands I believe endorsing this vote tonight in our fiveyear effort to join the dark sky world that's Jeffrey Hall the director you have a letter from the president of Fountain Hills dark sky Foundation they just did a groundbreaking ceremony on Jan uh April 8th for $25 million Observatory right in Fountain Hills big money coming in big visitation big benefits to the town uh Town business businesses and lastly dark sky International the world standard as I said before lighting guidelines education the endorsed us Cave Creek dark sky in this town with their letter tonight they explain the process they talk about what happened in these last five years so vote Yes and let's join the dark sky world and everybody benefits the town the real estate the businesses and actually our lifestyle thank you very much thank you Kathy Jones hi Kathy Jones the address 6042 East Hidden Valley Drive Cave Creek Arizona 85331 council members Mr Mayor Town manager it's nice to see you all tonight and yes I am very much concerned about the Dark Skies several years ago across the street from me a dwelling went in I don't really think it's a house it's more like a a greenhouse and um when when this project was all done one night I saw this glow out all my windows we need regulations the town approved 25 outside twinkling lights on this dwelling it was awful this kept going for several weeks until the mayor at that time Mr Bunch mayor Bunch came over and saw the mess you could see the glow from Cave Creek Road and I'm two blocks off of it okay now what I'm getting at around where I live which is the tamaras Grove that was just plowed up there's supposed to be maybe I think Eight houses going on those three small Lots I want to make sure the council can take a good look at the lighting that's going to go in there um if it's going to be anything like what was across the street for me it it's pretty scary um and for the animal sake for our beautiful Skies we need to have some ordinances on protecting the glow of the lights on other people's property thank you thank you Jeff Hill hi mayor and Council my name's Jeff Hill I live at uh 6638 East AER Hills up uh North Valley and I haven't been here as long as Mark or some of you guys but I have been here for 30 years when my wife and I escaped the big city south of here um I can't imagine living in any other place I get asked all the time where would I move and I can't think of any place else that I would rather live probably all the same reason that all of us are in this room um listening to the people talk here tonight I could really tell uh there's quite a um effort to preserve what we have and try to protect it and guys like me are dependent on you guys and the council and our city staff to protect our interests to try to keep Cate Creek um like it was as much as we can um I'd like to preserve um what we have here forever and for my grandchildren um I'm supporting Bruce and the dark sky initiative I think it's important for us to start with that and keep the lights out of the Skies um and we just really depend on you guys to look at the voices that are that come up to this Podium and discuss these things with you guys with the staff so I appreciate that thank you thank you Jody Powers Jody powers 4192 North Old Stage Road I also were in support of Bruce in the program from where I am on Old Stage Road and you look South you can see the whole that you know you can see the valley and the lights that are there but you can look up and you can see the stars I have a friend that lived in Carefree she sold her house to a um man who is he studies the stars I don't I can't think of what he's called so our sky here is very rich with stars and we need to keep it so that you anyone can look up and see them so I appreciate Bruce and all the work that he and his group have done and I appreciate the time that you'll put into looking at what's the right thing to do thank you thank you Scot Dan Scott tane 592 for East Mountain Reserve Drive Cave Creek first of all timing is everything is last week Bruce asked me to come up here and support the effort and I do support Dark Skies I have as long as I've lived up here in Cave Creek now the official Dark Skies I support we had some friends came over for dinner on Saturday night he and I went to high school together he moved from Baltimore out here a few years ago they live in Tatum Ranch yeah we all know where Tatum Ranch is just down the road I used to live there myself as they were ready to leave about 9:00 at night they went out in our driveway and we also sit slightly up and we can see all the way out across Cape Greek and he went to get in the car and his wife walked behind the car with Natalie and looked up at the stars and four or five minutes later her husband's still saying get in the car we need to go because from Tatum Ranch she can't see those stars all she sees is the lights of Phoenix perfect now I knew what I was going to say up here tonight we need to keep that we need to keep the Dark Skies we built our current home back in 20072 2008 we moved in I sat up there and I looked over towards Adam 54 Street was that house right sitting up there with spotlights coming all the way across the valley that we could see and it was uh the owners of it were in town out of town didn't live there it took months and months and months before Adam finally contacted them to get something done with those lights okay we see all kinds of Lights from our house so over the years it's gotten better okay again I'm fully in favor of Dark Skies but if we move to Dark Skies our current ordinances are good if they're followed and if they're enforced we work on this complaint driven system when Dark Skies put in place I don't know what the regulations are for enforcement but in addition to the uh zoning regulations that will go ahead and change we also need to deal with the enforcement to make sure that Dark Skies didn't just a piece of paper that sits in an archive somewhere in Cave Creek that it's a real and living thing that's enforced and we're truly Dark Skies thank you thank you L goldammer Julie goldammer 3422 North 52nd Street um I am going to try to make this as brief as possible I am totally for Dark Skies I think the whole idea of conservation and preservation of the state land trust is the Apex where this all starts we have all of that preserve land which I'm also in favor of it just goes without saying that we have this beautiful Valley where we can all look up and see the the sky the night sky um this town has been growing off of volunteers and people who feel passionate about a bunch of different projects I will go back to there's state land people that have worked really hard on conservation there's several of them sitting in this room right now tonight we have people who are sitting in this room tonight that do the rodeo really well and that's based on volunteer work we have people that do uh the museum efforts all of the the mining the gold mining experience and we have of course our Cave Creek Dark Skies representation here right now that's what makes up this town that's what we can do to be better and different and special um as uh one of the other speakers just mentioned timing is everything this is a unique selling proposition if we do this right and we do this with all of the communication that is necessary to build and bring everybody on board um there is absolutely no reason why we shouldn't do this it's easy when you have folks who've already done the volunteer work to put these ordinances together it's helping support the staff we do not want to overburden the staff with extra busy work but I think this is kind of a no-brainer um there are so many benefits and I'm not going to sit here because Dark Skies I'm sure put in their letter what some of those benefits are but we could have some additional community events that would bring in and drive in tons of Tourism and visitors um in enable growth in the community um it would enable more nighttime foot traffic which would help our local establishments and bars and we could come up with a creative and kind of a compromising way to either support create some sort of a rebate or some sort of an incentive to businesses and um home homeowners to be more um compliant with the Dark Skies so I am 100% in favor of this please vote Yes for it thank you Abraham I apologize I don't mean to put your last name by bye Abraham aay 42620 North kava Ranch Road when we started out this meeting tonight everybody stood up for one reason and it was in unity everybody had their hands on their chest one nation under God this is the unity that we have under God the scripture is so powerful it says the heavens declared the glory of God so everyone that has come up to speak tonight what have they said they said these stars are just amazing but why because it declares the glory of God so Nations Mankind from the beginning has squandered this beautiful planet that God gave us po stewardship so here we are at a time that we can actually step out and say Lord we will do thy bidding because what did he say he says I lay before you blessings and cursing life and death choose blessings choose life so when we look upon these words that are Everlasting words and he wants us to look up to heaven to see what he has created as a beauty that it may be left for generations and generations so what does that mean about Dark Skies why is it important to become part of this organization because we will all pass away but the heavens will remain and the organizations that will help to endure the these things will always be help to a town to a city to a people so that they can preserve these things that are set before us to preserve so I encourage you please vote Yes preserve the SKU preserve Cave Creek because this is our blessing thank you thank you Mariam frell good evening Miriam peral 41404 no North Old Stage Road so many of these folks have been so eloquent tonight in their appeal and I'm going to be very brief and just say that I love living in Cave Creek because I love and appreciate the privilege of being able to look up from my backyard at any night and see the Dark Skies so I believe that that the Dark Skies initiative is something that would go hand inand with all of the preservation efforts that that most of our Town's people would like to undertake it's something that we can leave as a legacy for the future generations to come so I encourage you to vote Yes and take this to the next step and eventually I would love to see K Creek become a dark sky Community thank you thank you Tracy Davies Tracy Davies good evening thank you for uh allowing us to speak this evening my name is Tracy Davies and I live at 41777 North Old Stage Road and uh my husband and I have been out here for 25 years and we moved here because of the Dark Skies and um so we are very much in favor of continuing that we love it out here I love to go to my neighbors with a flashlight and swim in the pool come home and look at the fabulous Moon and so we are very much in favor of the dark sky movement I think it is the right thing to do and certainly goes hand inand with preserving what we have in our community and uh tourism as well so thank you thank you fck Lisa Greenman good evening Council and thank you Town manager for bringing this um up and I want to say I think this is such a win-win I mean we elect our Council as our representatives and then we have our Council tell our staff what how we should move forward and here we have a situation where you knew that the ordinances needed to be looked at um they're good but they're not enforced all the time and they're not quite up to Snuff and here you had citizens who work all volunteer they went through all of the ordinances and they also worked with dark sky International which is the they're the ones that know how to make a dark sky town and and they've got it all highlighted you can go through it you can read it you can see what was taken in what was put out what was you know I mean it's really wonderful now we have the Synergy of our town staff and we also have those that worked on it through dark sky and in Cave Creek and dark sky International um I have to say that for us to become a dark sky town is so important at this point in time everybody stood up here tonight talking about preservation and how important it was and how it was our Legacy that we were going to leave behind in Cave Creek we have an opportunity here to almost be like a necklace that goes from Fountain Hills across Rio ver and into Cave Creek and there's a town past us that's also a dark sky town we have the opportunity to start to say no the glow is we can turn it down if you go to Flagstaff you go to suona dark sky towns you can see how getting rid of the glare of light actually makes businesses easier to see it actually makes it safer in the town at night so all I can say is I hope that you will vote Yes tonight so that we can start to move forward um five years ago it was not a no to dark sky International it was a no to a nonbinding resolution to explore this opportunity so let's take that time now to vote and say yes let's go ahead and let's look at how dark sky can be part of the preservation and conservation effort that we as people living in Cave Creek all of us we're all here we can go on forever about an open space the dark sky the sky and just you know knowing that how many times have you driven home you're coming up the hill from Phoenix or from Scot still and suddenly you're sort of like oh I'm here I'm in Cave Creek it's great let's make it that way let's keep it that way and let's use this opportunity really really really use it I just want to say that it's it's really somebody previously said about timing this is the time this is the time to say yes and you won't if you have fears about it everybody's here to answer your questions so thank you thank you Boren van winko notice she's in favor like to speak oh David Phelps David Phelps cap Creek thank you again for the opportunity to speak uh was part of the I was a part of the rewrite of the ordinance um Cave Creek dark sky is ready to discuss the new lighting standards uh to be implemented over the next 10 years in Cave Creek uh unfortunately over the five years that it took to get us to this point tonight you've seen a proliferation of cheap string lights Holiday Lights as they're probably called when the enforcement gets to their uh business and spotlights that are just illegally pointed at the flag so they get an exemption forever uh our methodology for enforcement is education and we are offering in the ordinance to go to somebody's house when it's dark when they're complaining take a light measure and confirm or deny that you have a violation potential here then it would get turned over to the town for enforcement we will act as a witness for somebody who is experiencing an issue and um help them get through because you can lay uh on your couch and see a light coming through your living room window and wonder is that legal can that be legal and today's code because of um interpretation and because of just a little bit of looseness uh it may be legal but it's blinding so uh over 10 years what we would like to do is educate and uh through example get people to come along with us so that we can uh change change our lighting levels so so that you can see see the stars as long as you want to be here because I definitely think it's something that attracts people to come here and the longer we wait to to get going uh the the higher Hill we'll have to climb to get it back to where it should be uh I would like the council to know that if you could encourage pnz to hear this before they take a summer break if they were scheduled to take a summer break that would be helpful because the sooner we can get that slotted uh the more the longer duration the public notice can be out there and we think it's to our advantage to have a long public notice time we have this available on our website you guys have an electronic copy that anybody should be able to call you and get we have nothing to hide we think that the transparency is our strength so thank you thank you I have no additional speakers okay um so at this point uh we're at the point now of U motion and so I'll make it okay motion to direct the town manager to have staff review the town's lighting ordinances that may result in Cave Creek becoming a dark sky Community second okay there's no Financial so we'll have a Voice vote on this is there discussion oh excuse me excuse me you had the motion yeah so truth and advertising um I've worked with Bruce on this a little bit and given some advice periodically along the way the biggest change that I see in anything to do with this ordinance is going to be with string lights right now you can go down to Costco Walmart um Home Depot or Lowe's and you can get the big black string of string lights that that have a little bulb down the end of them probably about this big for you to become dark sky compliant you're paying about 15 bucks a string as I recall seeing it in C in Costco today um I'm sorry you're you're paying about 30 bucks this string for an additional $23 you can buy opaque Shades from Amazon that snap right on and you are now dark sky compliant I think that is going to be the biggest change and the biggest impact cost-wise for anybody around here here I mean the other thing is it doesn't preclude you from putting street lights out Walmart has a I don't know if anybody's been there at night they have great street lights they light up their parking lot like it's no tomorrow those lights are about 12 feet tall they're perfectly shaded and everything is pointed down there's no reason we can't do similar kinds of things in the town core which would reduce the need for string lights so I mean there's a lot of creative things that we can do as a town we need to take a look at it explore it with that I'm done okay you the second Tom yeah I'd like to note that Bruce and the volunteers have done some programs at Spur cross I've I've gone up there I have not been a volunteer there are hundreds of people that are coming to Cave Creek to honor the Dark Skies that we have now and uh I think that's helped to define the community and I'm hoping that staff councel the Dark Skies people can come together to find the best way to preserve what we've got but I do want to note the contribution that's already been made and there are other projects that a couple of you worked on that I really appreciate uh I have had discussions with staff I'm not totally satisfied with what came out but I think we can bring this forward and uh do a better job you sure no your choice let's have a little history lesson here when the town of Cave Creek was formed a couple of ladies went down to Tucson un by the univers University of Arizona and discussed lighting with some people with a fledgling organization that ended up becoming Dark Skies so our initial light ordinances in the town of Creek reason we have what we have now is because that those people did the did the homework in the very beginning and that and I got this story from Martha so I know it's true um that that is is why we have the Dark Skies that we have now um when several years ago my recollection is we went through after this started and we we addressed the lighting ordinance and and as I recall we changed the Kelvin numbers way down lower uh if there's if there is is folks out there who um with these string lights like Dusty was mentioning but they can they can make them and get that k down then that'd be a great thing I uh am all for going forward with this my issue is actually having some organization looking over our shoulder I believe in smaller government I believe in less oversight and I have a problem down the road I don't have a problem fixing our ordinances I have a problem having somebody looking over our shoulder in the future my comments have been about preservation and this piece um about Dark Skies fits right in with why I ran for this office so I'm all about it thank you Tom um Mr Mayor I don't know if anybody has noticed the project that was done at the library I guess about six or eight months ago and I didn't notice it for the reason you would think I drove down the street one night and it was dark and I called Bruce arand at home I said uh are you guys doing something with the library and he goes well they're cooperating and they're maybe going to take the string lights down but they have a fabrication now around the street lights in the parking lot and our monkey wrencher to use the term is David phelon hat who apparently went home with one of his leftover Cub Scout sets and actually fabricated just a simple piece of metal and he and Bruce went up there and got the library board of directors cooperation and um for the next couple of nights when I was going down Schoolhouse Road I kept noticing how dark it was because it had not been like that up to Prior so I called him and as I'm prone to effusive to Long remarks as you know you bear with it um I called him but I wasn't excited about the restoration of dark sky in that one little spot I was excited about something that I saw as a quality of life restoration yeah the whole spectrum of benefits with doing more with the skies but I thought my gosh we can do something like this with dark skies maybe there's some other issues in the community that are part of growth and progress that we could look at maybe a different way such as Tree City USA please bring it back and there's other things I just think we can do so I'm I've always been a supporter of this since the very beginning when I bumped into Bruce coming out of the red truck five years ago and he wondered who he was and heard about the issue but I'm more excited about the receptivity of the council and the staff on this project so we can maybe move with more dispatch in the next few years on other issues where there's consensus in the community and I don't want to presuppose by giving examples but um everybody would have me to their own list but I I'm jazzed on the volunteerism and the Gathering more than the specific issue itself and take the test at the library drive down Schoolhouse one night and there's something different you won't know what it is but it's noticeable for folks who have been here since before the library so thank you Mr May okay uh I guess my comments are uh I I swore this the first time around uh five years ago voted favor of it and I expect to do so this time so uh we're gonna have a tough time because uh all three major roads coming this way out of Phoenix have either Improvement widening projects or they're studying improving widening projects so uh it it's going to be a tough fight to keep the skies in uh in Cape as dark as they are now with that glow from the South but I I plan to vote in favor of this yes I just want to just want to make sure that there's clarification on this so the motion um that was made by council member rhs and seconded was the original motion which was to have um staff review the submitted ordinance changes and then take it through the Planning and Zoning process and come back to council earlier in the discussion on this item I heard the mayor suggests that we come back first so I just want to make sure if we either need to amend the um motion or I fully understand that that's what the mayor was suggesting well bring it back to us just bring it back to us give us an educational session section on what it is I'll leave you to the timing of it we will do that then okay if I need to amend the motion I'm happy to do that you okay you got Direction I got Direction that's good enough then your your plan is not in the motion so I think can be super stretched over that yeah um so this is not Financial so uh let's we'll have a Voice vote all those in favor of moving this forward signify by saying I I okay we had a no so let's take a a roll call please Teresa I thought you oh you did excuse me excuse me Teresa cancel that anybody else hear me say [Laughter] no I'm the closest to it well dust is a little close so the motion carries 6-0 you're on your way next on the agenda are Department reports continued from uh April Fools Day utilities department update on the January 17th 2024 8in Force main collapse in Creek Road and Carefree Highway G May and Council um let me get myself situated with this new arangement here okay um sorry I had to continue this from last meeting um but I just want to give Council an update on the uh the Force main which um collapsed that we had it was almost three years a or three months ago that it actually occurred uh so it's a call I did not like to receive but our staff dealt with it very very professionally and in a great manner so it was the Force main the 8 inch Force main that we have that actually ties into our gravity sewer system at the intersection of Carefree Highway and um Cape Greek road that collaps the last 40 ft of the line basically deteriorated and what we're left with which it was originally an 8in duct iron pipe and as you can see on the the right hand side of this slide there was wasn't much pipe left so we were able to get in there do an emergency repair and get that fixed and and bring the Force main back into operation during that time we actually had to this is actually uh transm this Force main uh collects and transmits about 90% of the flow for the town it comes from the Rancher Mi list station so uh during that time we actually had the set bypass operation we actually had the Vault and truck our Wastewater flows around the brake location um we used uh BNF construction to do the immediate repairs and one of the reasons we wanted to do this update tonight was um U BNF actually has a Cooperative purchase agreement with the town uh we were piggybacking on another uh contract they have with another municipality in August of 2023 Council approved that um Cooperative purchasing agreement and Council gave us the ability to do up to $650,000 of sewer repair work over two years uh we didn't anticipate spending all this in this this time but that's the Contracting mechanism that we used um to get this done so we didn't actually have to come back to council for emergency Authority we used the existing contractual Authority that we have the total cost of repair uh that was spent was $264,000 so we're within the capacity that we had but to make that payment occur we actually had to move a few things around in the in the capital program uh so we pushed out another project uh the repair on endur Hills wash which we'll do next fiscal year so that'll be refunded and we had to move around a few other things so we're not asking to go into Reserve contingency we're doing within the current capital budget and getting the work and completing the work and paying for it this year um after the break obviously we're very concerned about the overall condition of the of the line itself it's 2.8 miles of an 8 in force man it's uh was constructed in 2010 uh it with it's it's cement morline ductal iron so ductal iron itself is very strong material um but then the cement M lining is that's more of a a water pipe so that was what was chosen at the time when this went in and uh what happens is the C mottar actually doesn't give you much protection against the sewer gases so where you have high spots in the line where sewer gases collect or what actually the failure we saw was at the end of the line that's that the line is always open to the atmosphere you're always getting sewer gases this meant more eats away very quickly and then you're into the ductal iron pipe and the ductal iron pipe corrodes very quickly so it's less than uh 14 years since installation and we lost the uh the end of that pipe um not to say it's a good good thing but talking with other municipalities and seeing this uh in other locations this is a common failure um the the air release valve there's eight or seven high spots what we call high spots along the line because it doesn't follow a constant profile there's Air Relief owls those are actually Pockets where air can collect so that became our next concern is do we have air pockets and deterioration occurring at all those locations so we actually engaged with black and Beach to help us do an assessment um it was sort of a paper assessment and some field work assessment to give us next Direction Where Do We need to go next with this Force such a piece of critical infrastructure for the town's Wastewater system so their recommendations are that um uh well physically we tried to enter into the into the force B we actually had a while the bypass was going on we went into four of the locations where we have air Leaf vals we removed the air Le vals and we actually try to get camera into the pipe to see if we can assess the condition of the pipe at three of the locations the pipe was still full of water it was still holding water so we couldn't see the pipe the one location we could see the pipe we didn't see significant deterioration we did see high water line and some other other deterioration but there was no real conclusive results um since I've been with the town now um we've actually had two opportunities to cut into this Force man one at the wrench man on a list station it looked uh completely intact in one um another location uh where we actually had a broken um plug valve that we had to remove and we actually did a video camera inspection about 200 ft we didn't see any deterioration that's not to say there's no deterioration because we've only seen a small sh snapshot of two and a half miles a pipeline but from uh the physical inspection that black and Beach could complete we couldn't getting conclusive results their recommendation is we do what's called a smart ball and it's just it's just that a 3-inch diameter pole that we'd actually put in the force man at Ranch of minana and actually use the pumps to push it up and it would actually has sensors in it and actually look for the wall thicknesses of the pipe um and give us some other information about it so that might help us locate where there's air pockets which allow us to go and do more further investigation and potentially highlight if there's some um loss of pipe um the estimate for that about $45,000 to do that so that's something and we'd put in the Force main it would follow its way through we'd catch it at the back end of it then we'd gather all the data we can out of it so it's something that's used um as a a Inu Place pipeline inspection assessment so that's what the recommendation we move forward with either that or we're actually having to make entries into this Pipeline and do bypasses to to get into it um the air Lea vs themselves there are seven locations in 2020 we actually replaced them all um black of each's uh recommendation is that we were actually on about a year program we actually got extended out because of Staffing Resources they're recommended every six months we go in to make sure that they are maintained properly um they also recommended that we do some H2S uh sewer gas monitoring at the Force main discharge manhole right now it's very difficult the access of that manhole because of its location um because of the traffic control setup so so we're going to look into some see if there's some technologies that allow us to do some monitoring there um uh real-time monitoring Andor something that we can get into and it might be required us to do after our staffing to get into those get in and out of those locations the other thing they recommended was that we refine the trans Emergency Operations plan we learned a lot and our staff really responded well and so did our consultants and contractors to help us through this situation and we want to actually get that institutional knowledge and memorialize it in our emergency action plan so in the future we don't have to rethink about this what size of pumps did we use the holding tanks and the setups Etc and even the routes of the trucks that was actually because we actually had to go around we actually created a tra traffic blockage so we actually had to Route our trucks through local streets to get around the blockage um another thing that we want to wrap up is and and with this uh fiscal year is actually the repairs of the manhole so we actually did uh uh with the repair work we were able to get into the first two manholes um in the intersection and get some repairs done but there's additional work that's needed um you're seeing the picture there is actually the the discharge where the force Bane ties in so the the light gray at the bottom is the new repair we did and you can see there sort of a stripe up the wall that uh we had severe damage of the concrete we were able to get that coated um there's indications there's been probably three at least three different repairs done at this manhole over its lifetime because there's three different types of Coating in there the recommendation uh is to go in and actually remove that but it requires physical physically doing an entry into it and ship shipping it all off and then recoding it so we like to get that done this year and we' like to do this manhole in the next three down which would get us to 53rd Avenue and then we could get out of there so it's going to be disruptive to traffic but we want to do it once and be done with it and get out so we're planning to do that before the end of June with this current fiscal year and then with the assessment we'd like to do that next fiscal year and get that that work done the $45,000 assessment work with the smart ball and with that I can answer any questions um about the the breaks or our um proposal or recommendations for moving forward with this yeah what are we doing differently well how we GNA this is something that should have been prevented not due to you I'm to because that that's part of my history lesson here because uh in my probably the second or third year on the water advisory committee the water advisory discovered that the town had um turned the town code uh inside out they had no monitoring program had no oil in grease program uh there were no inspections and that's one of the things that we uh got fixed very early on in with heavy um opposition from some parts of town leadership um the thing is oil and gas oil and grease in these lines created at Acid gases hydrogen sulfide which are extraordinarily um damaging to both concrete and steel and that's why we're repairing all the concrete Parts in the system they were eaten up in no time in addition we had um H2S and smells down the sewer plant all the time the neighbors down there when we finally got an inspection and a monitoring program in every quarter I think we have one of your SK schedu pretty soon there's couple graphs in there and there also inspection reports that has been around uh did you start those uh Sean or was it before you were here may councel no I did not start that that the the the um we call it the pre-treatment program and that started before me I can't take credit for that we've been working and my staff have actually done a really great job of of bringing that up to the next level uh and making sure that we have enforcement we have a we actually now have an online system that they input the data said it used to be managed by a spreadsheet now we have a database that we can monitor um the performance make sure the people are the the the pre-treatment pro program as mayor indicated keeps the anything detrimental to the collection system and or the plant out of the system so anybody who has a a grease Interceptor a grease trap or a sand oil Interceptor is part of that program they have to show that they're monitoring it and then uh we'll we go out and do um Quality Control test on that we used to spend a lot of Staff time on doing it but really they provid us information what they call the Manifest and we it's been a more effective program but part of that is identifying all the devices that we have and making sure everybody was was following the rules so and staff have done a lot of time make sure that that was being implemented so that that program is really cheap compared to going in and fixing all the manholes and spending $264,000 and all the odor complaints and who knows what else damage is out there I highly urge you to find out what else we're dealing with uh so I I think the prevention is always cheaper than reaction what we have here is reaction to mistakes were made decade and a half ago and uh there's I'm I'm convinced there's more damage in there so um I I I support it this whole program of monitoring and and checking the lines it was really good for us when we had the opportunity to check the uh the cap line we cut out those those coupons and sent them off for testing found that cap the cap line was in really good shape because there were some questions on that so uh well done on your reports I look at them every time they come out so thank you was that a question I I'm not sure other questions okay no we will um before we obviously do the work of the manholes because that requires a pretty invasive traffic control setup we will give advanced notice we won't be doing it the night of uh what we had to do during the break so gives a few weeks notice when we're going to do that right now we're looking at we think about a week's worth of work in the manholes we're going to talk to the contractor about trying to do that work at night um uh but we'll have to factor in safety and other things but physically we actually have to get them person into the manholes and chip off the old Coatings and do repair work and recat them so it's it's it's slowo but it's necessary to make sure we avoid a collapse of that intersection of a manhole at this point we can save those manholes if we do this work now thank you Sean uh next on the list is the uh elections 2024 by Deputy Town manager and town clerk mayor and Council you may be aware we have a election coming up on July 30th uh this year uh our election will be for a mayor six council members and then voters will have um an opportunity to consider changing the current two-year terms um for mayor to fouryear terms with term limits as well as changing the current two-year terms for Council to fouryear stagger terms with term limits um in the in addition the home rule option the alternate alternate expenditure limitation item will be up for voting as well uh some of the important dates uh they are on our website but for procon statements uh or arguments for the the home rule option as well as for the consideration of the term changes are due by May 1st um and then the last day of register to vote uh is July 1st so all this information if anything else changes is on our website as well as Maricopa County elections website and we'll be updated accordingly if anything changes so any questions for me thank you Teresa uh next on the agenda is a staff report on Bike Week 2024 thank you Mr Mayor members of council Marshall Stein bless you made bike week this year we survived Town's still here we're grateful for that um good there were no arrests there no major injuries no major scuffles um it was a wildly popular event um I would say we had probably near record crowds um so it was busy um I I appreciate the support that the town and the council gave me on the flashing beacons um my thought and goal to synchronize the crosswalks failed take responsibility for that um the lack of line of sight and the sheer volume of pedestrians and vehicular traffic made it virtually impossible to operate the arms that would come down remotely that being said the barriers were left in the up right position um we did utilize the traffic monitoring cameras that were on them so that was a plus and we did utilize the flashing yellow Beacon odly enough we got very positive feedback on the flashing yellow Beacon who would have thought that a beacon was so popular but it said it did bring awareness to the crosswalk so I was appreciative of that so again the synchronization of the crosswalks to Arms come down and let people cross simultaneously said each um each crosswalk was a failure and I apologize for that I tried my hardest um it was new technology we tried it and it it didn't work um the way we wanted it to work the device worked it just I guess I had a bad idea but technically was kind of good because flashing lights and the the cameras anyway um there were extensive delays going through town on most days traffic like I said was an all-time very very very popular event um just to give some numbers some brief numbers I don't have a ton uh Friday the 29th we saw approximately 11,000 vehicles coming into uh Town um of those approximately 11,000 you're looking at uh approximately 5,500 plus uh heading Eastbound and approximately 5100 plus heading in the westbound Direction um Saturday the 30th we saw approximately 6,800 Vehicles Sunday day another 3,400 vehicles um Monday Tuesday Wednesday there were no traffic control plans so uh no restrictions Thursday restrictions went into effect again um Friday super busy uh the excuse me Friday the 5th of April saw approximately 6200 plus cars um Saturday the 6th um again super busy approximately 5600 Vehicles Sunday approximately another 5600 Vehicles the event's popular um it's loud it generates a lot of traffic vehicular and pedestrian um we did the best we could to manage it I think the sheriffs did a fantastic job with having a rapid response force in case Gods would did we had any problems uh Manpower wise I feel like we had more than enough manpower on site um a to manage the traffic and B to respond to any emergencies Daisy Mountain set up their um command post did an excellent job we worked very well with them couple of medical emergencies um any time you have a large crowd like that you're going to have you know chips and Falls you're going to have um heat related I think we had two two heat related she yeah um which isn't something we commonly see at by week but it happens um I I had the privilege I suppose of um attending the Waste Management Open as a Marshall and I saw a lot of people drinking in public I saw a lot of people urinating in public public I saw a lot of disorderly conduct and I'm going to tell you as your Marshall and as you my counsel we didn't have that in Cave Creek turn bike week right The Hooligans no offense um for bike week we didn't have that we didn't have fighting we didn't have urinating in public we didn't have disorderly conduct we didn't have all these things that you know you normally think would happen at a a crowd this big and I'm proud of that I think that that a lot of that has to do with the man of the event um from the Hideway and from uh the participating Partners In The Roadhouse no offense um and it a lot has to do with the the tone that we as a town set that we're not going to have those Shenanigans in our town and uh I'm proud of that I think like I said the event grows and uh I I I think someone once said if you build it they will come they're coming and it's managed in a safe and efficient way but it does generate traffic pedestrian traffic vehicular traffic and we manag as best we can again the synchronized crosswalks seem like a really good idea you guys were all supportive as well and it just didn't work out um sometimes I come up with really good ideas sometimes not the best ideas but that one is not the best but I tried it and uh again I take responsibility that that did not work out as it did in my mind it seem like such a good idea in my mind um it happens you have an answer almost any questions you guys have well it's got be limits to everything it's been a rough couple questions or or comments so yeah comments to her welcome we've had Bike Week for many years too many they're going to show up you know whether or not we get involved as a town they're going to show up so it falls on shoulders of you and others and I certainly have seen over the years as bike week has expanded in terms of participation um generally you have been making a really good effort and a successful effort of doing better and better management every year with a glitch this year and I I think we all truly appreciate that it really and and the businesses the uh some people don't understand the amount that the businesses have put into this this is not all paid for by the town the businesses really are the primary supporters financially and uh they bring in good sales taags where I I I I think all of us really appreciate uh what they've done it's financially it's a great benefit to the town and you know I thank the businesses I thank you Adam uh and and anyone else who's been involved it's a become quite an event and if we don't have it they're going to come anyway I agree thank you tman I try hard so I'll agree with everything that Tom said for a change and and I I just want to say that under your direction the placement of the law enforcement Vehicles the timing of when they were out and how that all happened um I think it really contributed to a successful event for us in a safe and sane way so thank you thank you sir I appreciate that greatly the Strategic place of the Patty wagons on both ends of town was really a brilliant move Whoever thought of that whether it was you or the or the the sheriff the reason being people see that because they're all lit up as you come in and you you get the message that no bad behavior is going to be tolerated and that's a good thing you're probably the first one to notice that in many many years I do agree I do agree that that uh this is an event sponsored by Scottdale and it's a beautiful ride coming up to Cave Creek and there's no way it's going to ever get cancelled if even if we chose not to participate they're still coming agreed so I appreciate the bars working with us um and I do appreciate the fact that we all kind of work together this year thank you Mr Mayor uh as an Irish American I would like to take exception to the term Patty wagon just used by council member council member Ro I stand cor Mr they are police wagons I think is the terminology he was looking for and uh if you disagree I'll meet you up with the pub on the hill and we'll talk about it um Ernie just thanks to everybody involved that made it a successful event you guys too I know you're worn you were worn out when it was over heaven forbid it you eyes get sore having to count all the money um I guess that leaves me uh I I think it was it was a successful event and the most important thing always is safety that's that's number one on the list and uh it was exceptionally safe uh event this year but the traffic can be done better and I am determined to see that that happens um we can um I spent a lot of time observing traffic taking data counting uh stopwatch Etc and uh I've got a number of ideas but I'm going to throw it out to our staff and to the bars we got to move traffic through this through there we got to cut down on the transit time on the busiest times and we can do it I am convinced we can do it and uh I'll be working with whoever I need to work with to get that done so next year I'm going to be looking for both a planning effort that gets traffic moving through town um the effort on the ground by the deputies to get get things through town and to have uh standards that uh that achieve that and I think I've got the data to support that so that is the only fly in the ointment I I think that um if if this event is going to get more popular uh you know we were already at 15 minute transit times uh my transit times are 15 minutes through town that's that's too long so um let's work together and see if we can get this thing uh the traffic situation while keeping the excellent record on safety and that we have um and the economic benefit to the bars and restaurants and to the town too safety first uh mayor if I may uh we were hearing you and and we will definitely work with our traffic engineer um that actually works with the par I'm sorry the barricade company so that we can uh see what we can do to improve the traffic flow so we hear you maybe this is something we could take a look at a public private partnership with the restaurants and bars and find someplace to have a parking lot if we're going to get more people and more people and more people attending those streets fill up after a certain amount of time they're got to go somewhere so we need to start taking a look at maybe a public private partnership where the town partners with the institutions to build some kind of parking structure just a thought okay anything else and there there is public comment thank you Rick sa I just want to say thank you to everyone and to answer your question we actually did rent across the street uh the parking lot for the whole time and spent a lot of money on that to park people what we noticed with all the news channels and stuff more and more people are just coming to play like Lil L they want to drive through I had we had so many comments on Facebook of people going it was the greatest thing in the world to drive through the town and see all those bikes and it's cars it's coming through you know with the bikes we had parked and we had all the trailers everything across to the back over you know across the street um we were used at Rebel Ranch um and we actually like I said rented that out so I know the town did great uh the sheriffs did great um they worked with me Adam we worked we went in i' jump in his car we go down we'd open up the whole Lanes on one whole side pull the cones off on certain days and then other days it's well we got to put them back up as we went and we tried to you know alleviate the flows and stuff and and help flows through but what I did notice is a lot more cars coming through and I know that even Arizona bike week was saying that we had over 85,000 people the second weekend the the town that Cape Creek had it or or Scott and Scottdale okay yeah with all the people that were staying down there going to the concerts and stuff like that but they said over 85,000 people and I noticed it that that Saturday that Saturday I it was almost going into Carefree with bikes parked it was crazy and almost passed the stop sign so it was that crazy on Saturday so you know it's every year it gets busier first weekend might have hurt us because it was Easter plus it rained a lot of people out town obviously pushed everyone on that second weekend that's another thing that uh you know helped it it basically created a lot more traffic on the second weekend and that too so plus like I said Arizona Bike Week doesn't start till Wednesday so then they have all the people staying down there and they all want to come up here everyone loves Cave Creek and we noticed it in all the comments if you look at any of the Facebook it's just all praise About Cave Creek the town the stores everything the sheriffs everyone you know people from out town so I just want to say thank you and if you have any questions I can try to answer I will thank you thank you Paul Hinkle evening Paul inle representing from the Buffalo ship uh I just want to say that we had a phenomenal bike week this year back to what he was saying first week was a little slower compared to the second half and I do believe you correct that it moved everyone so we had a much larger influx uh but working with the Marshall this year and the sheriffs and everybody it was highly successful we had almost zero issues we had the bikers themselves are very respectful they're like orderly it's it's crazy how they'll make a line to the bar whereas on like our regular Friday night it's just everybody's kind of everywhere it's kind of organized chaos they were they were genuinely organized yeah that so I we I just wanted to come here and say that it was great especially with the help of the town and controlling traffic and uh being in communication with the Marshall all the time with everything that was going on so we look forward to doing another year and working with you guys and trying to make it better and better bigger more organized more successful more traffic control whatever whatever we can do to help with you guys we're we're here to communicate appr thank you and do what it is it helps us all so thank you that's all I've got unless you guys have any questions for me thank you thank you Daniel pako mayor and council members good to see you it's been a while I find this fortuitous because it's an election year so I might say a little comments on some of the people running for election and current Council staff here and the mayor here so Bike Week um the Beautiful part of bave Creek and I've been here for 38 years uh part owner land owner of Heralds for over 30 years I've seen a lot a beautiful part about our town it's it's symbiotic from the businesses in the town core and whether it's by accident or God's blessing we've created a commercial center outside of our town Corps preserving Our Town Corp and the residents with pers preservation of land which we need to continue to do uh it's been great and a lot of it hasn't come easy it's coming with turmoil but I am also part of this town of over the years of being here in 2008 after having a few years of Bike Week where before 2008 they came to our doors and said you got to throw your vendors out they wanted to shut it down because it was a new Council new people and and that was disheartening then in 2008 200 uh 2009 2010 when we're running through the building crisis they came back and said hey make Bike Week bigger than ever whatever other events you can do so I always want to remember that we have a symbiotic relationship and being part of Herold you guys know we are on record for being part of a community as most of these businesses are we support our community there's nothing mischievous or deceiving that we're trying to do we're all trying to make sure that want the best community for all of us that being said um I want to thank the town I want to thank the town Marshall whoever set up and was part of the process of organizing um they should get a sort of reward we get a good Yelp review I give that server a gift card so if I need to give whoever a gift card I'll give him a gift card because it was well done I know there was time and traffic but for the more people in town it was better than I've seen in years past and that's my perspective I didn't have a stopwatch but I drove through town every day during it so I want to thank uh The Hideaway Roadhouse and their team for what they did um they flipped the great majority of that bill and they this and and they want to be part of it so as whatever we can do as Heralds we obviously want to be part of that too I just want to also talk about the uh um the implication for business uh 30% busier than we would normally be during that week um and not only for the business itself but the people that work for us whether it's a dishwash whether it's a bus or whether it's a server there was over 160 extra hours of good money making for those guys that are part of our community and when I say that we all know summer is coming and our businesses drop about 30 to 40% so whatever we can do to be part of a solution to any concerns you may have we will just remember the things I told you from the past and how important some of these events are in the symbiotic relationship that should occur with this town I would love to meet our new town manager at some point and he can get with the businesses uh I would love to be part of that dark sky uh conversation I know Ernie made a good point I want our town running our town I don't want an organization running our town but of course we want the best for everything so hope to be part of those discussions too so thank you thanks Danny Janet Moore I have a complaint about traffic it's moving too quickly I can't gape at everything when I drive through I'm one of the people that drive through on purpose and um I don't have to driveth through and I think most of the residents in town don't have to drive through if you're off schoolhouse you can turn right if you're off a Galloway you can turn left think I've got that right you don't have to drive through town if you don't like the traffic I think that it it's just a great event and not to sound kind of sappy but it kind of just makes you feel like Freedom when you see all those people those adults out there having fun and there and there's alcohol and there's there's no problems I mean it's just amazing to me it just makes me feel really good it's kind of patriotic I know it's silly but it's true thank you thank you I have no additional speakers okay thank you very much well done with the the safety record I think is just amazing so um next on the agenda is the Arizona State trust land presented by another staff report presented by development services director thank you uh mayor members of council um as you recall last year Council gave direction to staff to proceed with uh conversations with the state land department and also began to um uh go out and obtain a an opinion of value AKA and appraisal for the uh proximately 4,000 Acres of State trust land uh within the town of Cave Creek um about a month ago staff had a uh meeting with we've been having discussions and meetings with the state land department for the last uh six months or so uh last month we when we met uh I obtained a list of a essentially a short list of appraisal Specialists uh from the state land Department about 10 or so on that list would meet the qualifications to be able to bid on this we've since uh solicited or sent out a solicitation of a request for proposals from those um appraisal Ser service providers and that will uh the RFP will close in May at such time we'll enter into a contract negotiation to select an appraiser um and based on the scope of work was provided uh chances are based on the last appraisal uh that was done for the state land this would probably be over the threshold that the town manager can authorize for Professional Services contract so it would come back to council um if if it's not above that threshold that would be fantastic um but it might have to um in the meantime the at the um direction of the state land Department uh they had discussed the town moving forward with a recreational special land use application permit by which the town um if approved you know following the application process if approved the town would be able to um take over management of that open space uh those slops as they're called are good for an initial uh two-year period and then can be renewed on a five-year basis um the other thing the last thing regarding the the state trust land um that they had mentioned is they would also be open to extending the uh agreements as you're aware um the town and state entered into annexation agreements um and subsequent rezonings of the state land uh in 2009 those have a 20-year uh time period by which the town can petition the state to put the open space up for auction and the town could um based on appraisal submit a bid at auction so know I've kind of thrown a lot there's a lot of moving pieces and a lot of uh discussions with the state land Department moving forward but uh right now it's it's staff's opinion that a we obtain that um that get someone to submit their request for proposal on a on an appraisal turn them loose to begin the appraisal work understanding that if at some time in the future the town wish to proceed with acquisition purchase of the open space we would have to refresh that appraisal likely uh but getting someone in tow just like we were able to do with a 30 Acres adjacent to Spur Cross Ranch is really the key First Step uh in all of this and then also explore uh continue to explore the opportunity to apply for the recreational State uh or special land use permit application I'm so used to saying SLP I forget what the S stands for so um and with that Mara happy in answer any questions I have one um is there any way that you can talk to the uh the state land department or state land trust and ask uh is there a a uh if we get the appraisal could we get the appraisal to be tied to the Consumer Price Index for three years that way it gives us plenty of time to get things on the ballot not this election but next election should people choose to buy it there shouldn't be any reason why they wouldn't want to do that the land's not going to appreciate that much in value and it should be tied pretty close to the CPI noted thank you Mr Mayor just a question uh Luke what's the time uh the ne necessary time for the appraisal what do you think it will take once the contract is awarded for completion very good question um uh council member augeron the the scope of work is very detailed in what we're looking for in an appraisal report um I believe the contract negotiation portion if we get you you know say two or three we've already had three reach out to us just looking at the RFP and said they're very interested in doing this I think that would be part of the contract negotiation phases okay from the date you sign the contract will it be a six-week turnaround will it be a three-month turnaround and really Hammer those details out at this point it's unknown what do you Mr Mayor what do you think is realistic or what would your H for turnaround time being um for a good report um I I go back to you know just from previous experience with the 30 Acres that that culminated you know about 18 months ago that took about um that was about 6 weeks from the date we signed the contract to the date we had something physical in hand that we could move forward with thank you I I think it'll probably take longer just simply because you have multiple Parcels also there's a piece here piece here piece over here and I just think it's going to take a little bit longer and I would think 90 days was probably a reasonable time other question questions comments yeah LCA you've worked hard and you you've brought to us specifics and that allows us to Target what we're going to do and I think probably all of us would like to preserve more land but the more information that we have the better we can plan for that and that's going to be very important and I think the information we get as a result of this will help us to Target what we can do thank you councilman May oh sorry so I really believe it's time for an educated conversation with the people of the town so this piece about getting uh these properties appraise is basic basic to that people in Cave Creek are smart um if we can share with them what we're doing what it'll cost how it will affect where we live um often times we hear that people in this town want to live in a quiet open space rural atmosphere and um and I know that the the changes that have been made are important uh the Water connect the fire department the oversize on our U Water Treatment Plant all of those are things that are necessary but they also encourage the population to come and use those you they know those uh utilities are here so as we look to the west and notice the people that are out there and they're not dumb either and they're going to say this is a beautiful place to come and live and we need a plan we need to be ready to go we need to look at sharpening reviewing our ordinances that allow um for managed growth which is the famous tagline when whenever we talk about development in this town so I appreciate your turning on that appraisal ding to hear what they have to say thank you thank councilman GRE you had something it actually kind of Dev tals on council member Road's um comment about the CPI um I'm just kind of curious about um once the appraisal's been um received how long are those figures typically good for uh I believe the state land Department said 180 days they're valid about six months then yeah okay because I like the idea about CPI if if somehow we can lock that in plus the CPI so that's I think very important yeah just truth and advertising um my first meeting with with Grady was I took him out to take a look at Roger's watchh Apache wash in that area um and as we you know walk around the area we showed here's where the open space was going to be here's where it's you know planned for dr43 here's where it's planned for this um on the way back we stopped kind of at a top of a little Rise um last time I was out there I had a golf range finder and I it's eight miles down to the chip plant it's a straight shot down that Valley through New River um there is no way in heck that at some point in the near future when they get to phase two and phase three of the I believe 5 billion doll they just Taiwan semiconductor just received from the federal government there's no way that place is not going to get built out so we have a unique opportunity um we can buy it before it gets on the market if we have to compete with developers we will never be able to afford that land so my personal thinking is we need to get this education sooner rather than later and it's even more imperative now that that the federal government has just dumped a whole bunch money into the State of Arizona for for semiconductors look the the the contract is structured as a right of first refusal is that correct uh we they are not looking to auction the open space for a 20-year period the only the only party that can cause it to come to auction is the town of Cave Creek so we so if if we could come up with the money we can do a straight purchase we don't have to wait for someone else to because right of first refusal is after someone else no sir they're still Bound by state law they must put it up for auction um and we have the opportunity to to purchase that based on fair market value or praise value and and so I if uh um we could induce them to put up for auction in is that what you're saying correct yeah have you have you had any information that indicates they were willing to do that they the rapport with the state with senior staff at the state land Department present day today is a very good rapport they are open to anything that we would like to entertain that includes extending the agreements that includes um the application for a recreational special use special land use permit almost got it right that time um and up to petitioning them to to auction uh one you know and aide of the slop would be the ability to give us an initial two-year term with a potential to extend those out on 5 years where we could identify certain lands that are priorities for us to purchase now or you know purchase sooner than later instead of coming and writing a check for the entire open space zone property so those are really anything and and everything is on the table with them to entertain with us being a good partner with the town well that's good news okay well I guess then the the key thing right now is to get that appraisal back and see see what we're de with correct it's really the getting a benchmark idea of kind of what we would be looking at to move forward with the purchase and acquisition outright so so I do want to qualify one thing the the uh when we get the appraisal it for all intents and purposes is for write a first refusal because they would auction the open space and the open space would go for whatever appraised value we have unless some developer wants to come in and buy a chunka open space which we have zoned as open space correct so we have for all intents and purposes the right of first refusal now I will also tell you talking with Senator Kavanaugh uh Council or uh representative cadin the state land trust is the most um political organization in the state and every time you get a new governor their priorities change uh and it Chang es dramatically from Governor to Governor so even if you get the same Governor a second time their priorities can be different so you have an opportunity now that you might not have two or three years from now uh Town Council um so what is your take on if if we um once we get the the purchase and we approach them and have the uh the auction and uh what protection does our zoning have and any other comments you want to offer you currently are protected under the current agreement in that there's no no one can come in and rezone because it's zoned open space and they've agreed that no one can apply they've agreed that you have a safe harbor for until 2029 and there can be no applications when you read the end of that section your protection is four of you standing up and protecting your community they've acknowledged both in writing and in discussions with with with with Luke that your zoning is Paramount now I know you have some and some in the audience have concerns about somehow the state preempting local zoning well we saw that in the last legislature we saw where they tried and mayor I heard you remark to the constituents the danger of the legislation that would have in effect preempted zoning and it didn't occur so I I truly believe the only way they could try to do that would be to pass a uniform ordinance are applicable to all jurisdictions that open space is not enforcable and I I don't think that would would that wouldn't that would survive but right now you don't have to worry about that because right now nobody can apply and so but your the question becomes do you the question becomes once the 20 years is up they're they're in effect saying this says that they can assign to an owner to a developer and the developer would come in and put pressure on you to reone but right now you have the power not to reone and that that is your absolute protection now one way to guard against the concerns about the legislature stepping in would be to own it because then nobody could apply but that is a significant cost bottom line is you have time bottom line is it's currently open space bot bottom line is they're currently maintaining it and you have to decide do you wish to to in effect prevent the property from in effect allowing it to be own to no longer to be bought by somebody else who could put pressure on you to reone and the question is will you will you will you will your successors file fall fall to that pressure you can prevent that by owning it but I I believe it's a remote chance I believe based on what happened in the last legislature and the way everybody reacted you did mayor when they when they passed legislation preventing you from Zoning for them for the state to preempt open space zoning would have to be Statewide and there's no way that could happen having said that right now this document says you're protected till 2029 no one can apply because this says they can't uh if you wish to have an auction you may and perhaps it would be like a write a first refusal um but the question is does a developer want to step in and when you read the last sentence it says reson the owner may sell such portions in compliance with all laws and you have the discretion Allowed by law to consider resoning what they're saying is beyond 2029 if you don't buy the property they can assign it to a to a purchaser that purchaser come right before you and try to reone and you're going to have to you or your successors have to say no you're protected for you're protected for another five years you have to decide what you want to do between now and then and if I may the state is also stated numerous times that there is no water allocation ass associated with any of its state uh trust lands within the town of Cave Creek that goes for the residential component the commercial components and the open space so them like you treat all bringing their own you would have to treat them like all Property Owners concerning water and have to bring their own water yeah I had heard that the cap is no longer accepting the 100y year um 100e water certificates for the Phoenix area so how would how would they get the water that well that that's one that protects you what luk is saying is you have some degree of protection um your absolute protection to prevent your successors from resoning the property is to prevent the continuation of a ban application which is in existence Now by buying the property that will be costly Mr Mayor yeah I just got to ask a question um I want to ask a question but I don't I'm not looking for an answer right now um would the council be interested uh and the town manager be interested in the town attorney having a resource during this process running parallel with development that would enable the temporary acquisition of an attorney Specialist or a lobbyist to begin full-time partnering with the town attorney if he or his design would have that interest so we don't have to play catchup later on down the line I there's a lot of legalities here literally statuto but also politically and I'm just wondering without on top of your other duties for the town you pulled a lot of rabbits out of the hats in this town over the years would we want your involvement proactively as legal counsel if you had an additional resource to delicate this to we used gry gamage years ago and I just think with your proprietary protection of this community which I think is more personal than statutory what about um and I'm not looking for an answer but just about maybe the feasibility of the manager delegating to you to delegate to a specialist to have an ear on the ground or have someone out there who understands the Byzantine priesthood that is the state land department and all things that are done that build square stucko and square steel thank you for Mr Mayor I I I could work I work in fact I'm the town attorney in Jerome and we were the first jurisdiction to have the Goldwater Institute nail us for short-term rentals and they I gave gave him advice and they didn't like it so they hired Grady who gave me the same advice and the great I think the concern think you should have are the political imination and could there could there be because remember I just said they tried to reone I'm sorry they tried in preempt zoning and the reason it failed is the governor vetoed so your point is what what if we there's a different Governor what I'm telling you is for them to try to pass the legislation you're worried about is it's extremely remote because you can't pass you can't pass a special law that applies only to Cave Creek but I honestly I wouldn't mind talking to Grady I think what you're concerned about is do we have to worry that in 2009 if you don't buy what they're saying is can anybody limit your discretion as elected efficient in exercising the legislative capacity to reone which is your absolute most broad power I don't think they could but I wouldn't mind getting Grady to come in confirm that to say what I'm telling you is you're home you're you're okay now till 2009 there's a risk after 2009 if you don't extend if someone were to try to come in and force you to reone what I think Grady will tell you is you have the power to say no the question is will they elect will four of you possibly say yes and that that's why you have elections but I I wouldn't mind talking to Grady to confirm my view that the risk of of preemption at the at the legislative level I think that's what you're asking me is remote I think it is dream up would be something we well I think he's referring to Grady gamage not oh I'm sorry Grady Miller you talking no I was trying to go through the chair and through the manager to get to you okay because I heard I heard you also talk about Grady gamage as well there's too many Gres in this world he's looking at me I'm like are you talking gamage or Miller well actually I was but you un intentionally must have listened to my brain or something um we had hired gr gamage years ago when it came time for well but I mean no I'm not trying to I really was trying to go through the chair and go to the manager to see if the attorney would like to have a Pathfinder because well and I'm not suggesting a specific attorney I mean okay because we had used Grady in the past on the local project but I just think rather than leaving adjusted development we need to have a presence to know who's meeting with the state Lan Department things are happening faster outside this room and this evening that's your point is touching on Council Ro could it be the state land they don't have theable now and they see the value of the property and they want to figure out a way to be liberated from the from the open space zone I'm as your town attorney and I I advise 72 pounds on land I believe it's entirely remote based on what we just saw in the last legislature but you're right I can't give you a 100% but Governor changes and state land changes they could try to preempt I think that would be we'd have a winning lawsuit but you hate it when a lawyer says winning lawsuit because that means you have to pay and so if you're telling me why don't you check with Brady to see if he can confirm my assessment that the risk of State preemption the risk of minations with a change governor and state land Department could overturn your I'm your town attorney telling you this document gives four of you the power to say no and and and and I I don't think there's any way around that but I'd be happy to check with Brady to see if that's again with every billion they add to that campus out there with more chip and not only have we been changed on the targeting uh sites by Mr Putin I'm sure there's four or five more now going to hit that site if necessary but um I just think that if you measure our desire for preservation versus the need to employ which they plan to do and how 177,000 employees there's probably a lot happening faster than we're able to assess the SE 177,000 are direct employees are saying it's over 100,000 indirect employees and secondary employees and you know my only comment is uh someone once said that life and Liberty are always in danger when congressman is in session same applies for our state legislature uh Luke and and H counsel I I have a question on process and what I'm concerned about is how fast we can move um and so I'm going to set up um presumptions I I think that presuming that we borrowed the money for it uh special uh special purpose bond for example um how how what would that look like as far and you may not be able to answer that now but how how would we move what is the sequence that we would move and the time it would take to move especially coming up against the 2029 deadline uh does it make sense for example to to try to get that extended um but um and and and and would some initial discussions with State lands be in order so that they're they're patient because that's that's not something you can do just with a drop a hatch you have to wait for an election for one thing yeah mayor members of council I can't really speak to um that that sounds like what you're talking about as an authorization granted by the voters appearing on a ballot yeah I really can't speak to that but what I building I think he's talking about spur cross replicated yeah you're spur cross I was the deputy County Attorney at the time this was a classic example of of governments working together and your voters I mean who would have thought that they voted to increase the property taxes to meet this needs and what I'm hearing tonight is there may be may be support for that I think we should go back I don't know how long it took you're talking about replicating the process leading to Spur crosses what you well I I'm we're gonna have to cple some options I mean I don't know what this thing's going to come up with but I'd rather do a little bit of thinking ahead of time uh presuming it's outside of our U our resources uh that's going to big number well yeah I I think so once again getting I think the appraisals are are the most important as far as the state land departments time frame they they really don't have one uh to speak of they're not in a hurry when we originally started these conversations it's been it's been 12 months ago really uh that we really sat down with former Town manager and with Shawn and different senior staff in the room with their senior staff and legal counsel um they really haven't given much thought to the commercial land that we did the the density transfer with the residential land they're looking far south of the Town boundaries they're looking at cashing in those those chips of entitlement if you will for different projects and different water allocations for much higher and much more density lands elsewhere outside of the town so we're we really not you know they're their resources are already invested in those other projects and those other um State lands of theirs so really anything we do would be on our time our clock however fast we could move through their process well I I just it's just amazing that they're being that Cooperative I'm I'm pleased with that Dr Advantage I try to be nice and hospitable to and other organizations we have an amazing history in dealing with them and the land trust and the county and the state the annexations and the rezonings themselves were were really um unprecedented and you know you two could speak to that sure Miracles can happen more than once um I I I just suggest that you uh one of your criteria for selecting an appraiser is speed get get get that moving so because we were really stuck with you know without a plan until we know what that number looks like and what what it would take absolutely so we've we've had some good discussions on this and I'm I'm glad this has stimulated some um uh additional thoughts and approaches um what I would like to do is there's been some really good talk one was saying we can uh engage some outside assistance so we're going to explore that the other thing that I also heard was um you know timing and and how critical timing is on this and um so I think one of the things we need to do I was just kind of whispering to the attorney about um you know the elections and when those are to be held for this type of question um you know a lot of the uh referendums are governed by state law so that's something we need to kind of figure out is it an even year only or can it be an odd year those are all questions so I think when we come back with an award of appraisal which I think should be pretty soon in the near future future I think we'll also have to address all the things that you've talked about tonight there going to be some windows there right and 29 is well it's quite a ways away right and the other question is is you know I I think it's a no-brainer to just go ahead and see if we can get the extension I I don't think there's any harm in it and if we I would not have that hold us up doing anything we're doing or talking about tonight it's just that I I think that that to me is a natural thing just the see was it five years was yeah you remember the increment yeah um they they would have entertained any any level of extending that out I I would shoot for five years um not saying that we're g to hold this off or postpone doing anything just to me that that makes a lot of sense and what that buys you is an additional Five Years on top of 2009 I'm sorry 29 sorry I keep saying 2009 U they're then responsible for maintaining it and liability uh and they're can be no auction there can be no petition to auction or petition to reone for another for another fortil whatever five plus 29 to 3034 so what you do is you get the continuation of open space at no cost you get the continuation of a Prohibition on people applying for resoning and that gives you time to work through the mechanics of of of the funding but I think Theon we should try if we can try to find I was a county attorney we could find the timeline for spur cross that's what I'm hearing is if you wish to buy it I think you need to go down the V appr I'm not saying we need to do that I'm just saying we need all our options you asked what luk what the time was that'll give us an idea how long it took I just don't want to miss a window yeah if there's a window out there that we don't know about if obtaining the open space is the the end goal you put all the ORS in the water and that's you know examining the SLP examining extending the agreements um and getting the appraisal seeing what that price is going to be you really you put all the ores in the water and and you wrot to that direction in multiple paths get the reason why I suggest the extension I have seen where these things backfire and so you may take it to the voters and they turn it down for whatever reason that's giving you more time to come back at a later date so that we're not and I'm not saying that's going to happen here but I'm just saying the breathing room it gives you is is really very helpful well yeah okay Mar if I may hey Luke don't run off I've been sitting here waving my finger trying to get recognized for the last 20 minutes and I'm sorry historically we've been here I was here when we when we rezoned all this and we did the annexation we rezoned all of this my recollection is and correct me if I'm wrong that that we had someone local who had deep ties with the state land Department who came up with a number that the state land department just completely rejected out of hand and said no way no matter what we had done for increasing the value of by rezoning the stuff along Carefree Highway remember we got shot down completely so the fact that we come up with a an appraisal number could end up being completely and totally meaningless uh for this deal that we're thinking about doing if it's not something that because there let's forget that the re not forget that the reason for the state and land Department in this land is to maximize revenue for schools that is their their Prime reason they wouldn't even let during a a period of of of blizzards up in northern Arizona they would not even let the Navajo go and cut dead trees off for firewood to warm their hoganss during the during during the winter many years ago so don't think that this is going to be the the the easy way out and we also spent a year with the gentleman that we put on contract to try and find some creative ways around this to so we could do that and part of that was if I as I recall down um what's the area down there you know what and and doing transfers when the state land sold that and they would buy some of this at the same time in order package deals so they could get denser whatever and that was even shot down so I I just don't want anybody to think that we have not tried and made concerted efforts to get here um I'm all far finding out what the what we think the things are worth but I think we would need to look at it peace meal because I don't think you can with the number that's going to be um the state land department is going to be happy with is going to be uh we'll be able to afford all those all those Acres all at one time just did I say anything that was out was wrong that to your recollection mayor council member Bunch no you did not okay thank you that I just I just want to get that in front of everybody that's it was Steve Betts who you hired back then do what it was Steve Betts that the town hired bet there you go yeah I could not remember his name yeah all right thank you and Jerry zic did the appraisal in in 2008 that got the the $400 an acre number that was pushed around and floated around too yeah yeah which which would which would have been legitimate based on on the the concessions that we made as a community U increasing the value of of the other lands that were involved long Care Free Highway to what or 80 acres of commercial General commercial 240 it's 120 commercial 120 commercial buffer yeah yeah I mean we we did an awful lot plus the 200 acre um Resort up in the up in the hills yeah all right they just didn't care about any of that that we did okay anybody else will move on uh public comment I have no one okay no one okay um have you put cards in oh okay uh well okay on up I'm sorry oh you're right I actually I think it's 2028 it's five years from 2000 it's 20 years from 20 8 you keep saying 2029 oh no no no I no what I'm trying to say is you keep saying 2029 I think it's 2028 which is one year less 2009 there's got it if I may though there there's a misconception one one year is not GNA make a lot of difference correct so the agreement say from the date of uh rezoning the Town Council uh did the second reading of the rezonings they became effective on June 18th 2009 the agreement say 20 years from the date that they are effective June 18th 2029 okay David David Phelps chiming in uh Luke and I had a small conference the first night of the budget discussions for the residents and uh fortunately I was the only one here and I put preservation on of the easel to try to get this on the uh priority list so we're talking about this tonight and um it's very rewarding I think I came home higher than I've ever been high after speaking with Luke about the SLP idea and about the progress and basically the big difference between now and the last time we tried to get an appraisal is the attitude it's the attitude of the state land Department saying yeah if you guys want to bring us appraisal here's the appraisal pick one of these appraisers they're not likely to reject this appraisal they gave us who to hire the time before I don't know that we used somebody on their list we may have we may not have but I remember Stan tol was involved with that and we had our Insider help but we also didn't have a number they could buy they could sell I guess is what I want to say so the number is going to be closer to the number that it should be because we have the arms length coming at it I'm very excited for us I think it's a golden opportunity to try to make something really really the opportunity is truly of our lifetimes to make this happen thank you thank you and I'll be back at the budget trying to get that money in there um well please thank you have to agree with councilman roads that time is of an Essence we have seen how the bulldozzer is moving at a rapid Pace eight miles is very close so when you look at the expansion that is going on how much more would it cost three years down the road so I think time is of an Essence I agree with you that we should be very careful with management of time but you have to also think about how quickly these things are moving and they are moving rapidly thank you okay we've completed our agenda do anyone have any objections to adjourning quit any journ