Scottsdale approves Puma Road $88.7M corridor study amid safety efficiency debate

Everyone, uh, this is Chair Miller and I'd like to formally call the meeting to order. Uh, welcome to city staff, transportation commissioners, and the public to the October 16th transportation commission meeting. Meetings are being held in person, televised on coxcable channel 11, and streamed online on scottsdaleaz.gov for the public to listen and view the meeting in progress. I'd like to ask for a roll call to begin this evening's meeting. Sorry. Chair Miller here. Thank you.

Vice Chair Wilcox here. Thank you. Commissioner Marman here. Thank you. Commissioner Pankich here. Thank you. Commissioner Kofile here. Thank you. Commissioner Cardella here. Thank you. And Commissioner Davis is absent. Thank you. Just make a note of that. Spoken comment is being accepted for agenda and non-aggendaized items. The request to speak forms must be submitted no later than 90 minutes before the start of the meeting. I do have one request to speak form from Mr. Lee Kulie.

Hang on just a second. Mr. Kulie, if you would. Uh, Miss Conclude, do we have any other request to speak forms? Chair Miller, we do not. Uh, written comments are being accepted for agendaized and non-aggendaized items and should be submitted electronically at least 90 minutes before the start of this meeting. These comments are also emailed to the Transportation Commission and posted online. Have we received any written comments, Chair Miller? We have no uh written comments. Thank you.

Thank you so much. And with that, I'd like to uh welcome Mr. Kulie to speak to the group. Three minutes. Do we have a three-minute limit? Yes. Oh, wait. Just going to time get my timer. Sorry. Chair Miller, Vice Chair Wox, and esteemed members of the commission. My name is Lee Kulie. I live at 10142 East Florier Drive. I also serve on the Human Services Advisory Commission, although I'm not here on behalf of the commission this evening.

I was very pleased to read back in August that the trolley route was extending to the food bank uh the Granite Reef Senior Center and Vista Del Camino Community Center. The reason I'm was really excited by that is because at the end of last year, we had focus groups uh and surveys that helped us put together the 2026 human services strategic plan.

And there were uh several references uh to extending the trolley route if at all possible to the Noah Choy Choya Health Center off of McDow in Puma, which is about a half mile uh from Granite Reef. So, I I just wanted to throw that out, put it in your ear in case you you had time to consider it. I know it, you know, might add a few more miles uh to the trolley itself, but if on those Thursdays, perhaps there was a way to include the the Choya Center.

It is a nonprofit uh that combines family medicine, pediatric care, dental services, and so on. Um so, anyway, that would be great if you could. That was my request. Thank you. Thank you so much. Um we'll certainly take that into consideration. Uh, Mr. Doi, did you want to say something? You look like you have a comment. I always have comments. Um, no. So, Chair Miller, uh, Trust Commission will be happy to to look into, uh, that possibility. Thank you. Thank you. And thank you, Mr. for coming.

So, with that, we have a MAG update on Puma Road project from Las Pedros to Cave Creek Road. Uh, Chair Miller, first we have to approve the draft meeting minutes and then we'll I'm sorry about that. Uh um for those of you who don't know, this is my last meeting, so I'm are making making first timer errors. So, thank you. Let's uh look at the meeting minutes of the September 18th meeting. Do you have any comments or a motion to approve? Do we have any corrections that anyone has found?

I move to approve the minutes. Commissioner second. Commissioner Marman approve. Made a motion and second. Commissioner Kofile. Coftile. Thank you. With that, is there any discussion? Miss Conclu, can we take a vote? Yes. Chair Miller, approved. Thank you. Vice Chair Wil Coxin, approved. Thank you. Commissioner Marman, approve. Thank you. Commissioner Pankage, yes. Thank you. Commissioner Kofile, approve. Thank you, Commissioner Cardella. Yes. Thank you.

And with that, we have a presentation uh from the MAG update. have Tim Stro, major project manager with Maricopa Association of Governments. Welcome, Mr. Stro. Uh, good evening. Uh, thank you, Chair Miller. Uh, members of the commission. Uh, my name is Tim Stur with Marop Association of Governments. I'm here tonight to present an update on the Puma Road corridor study from Los Pedras to Cave Creek Road.

I'm also being joined tonight by the consultant team that helped manage this study, uh, members of Kimley Horn, David Rowski, and Zack Candy. So, tonight, um, I'm going to walk the commission through the alternatives for this, uh, corridor study. Uh, but before I do, I'd like to provide a little bit of background information on what the stud is about and how we got here today. This project kicked off, uh, last year.

um about I would say in the summertime at the request of the town of Carefree and the city of Scottsdale. The corridor is 4.1 miles long. Um it is the last section of Puma Road to be under study, either design or widened and constructed from the loop 101 all the way up to Cave Creek Road. We do anticipate a significant amount of growth in this corridor. That green section you see highlight on the map, that is undeveloped state land that still needs to go to auction.

It's about 4,000 acres and I believe the last estimate there'll be around 5,000 homes built in this area. Um, another driving factor on why we're doing this study uh at the request of the city of Scottsdale and the town of Carefree is that both agencies have MAG Prop 400 arterial life cycle program funding um for this corridor. So with Prop 400 coming to an end, we need to move forward with programming the funds and getting this project constructed.

So this project um looked at a variety of different things. Uh one of them was definitely road widening. Today the road is one lane in each direction. If for those of you who are not familiar with this section of Puma Road, uh we looked at a lot of uh I'll hit the intersections in a second, but we looked at signalizing intersections. Also looking at roundabouts.

Um, in addition to adding uh bike lanes, sidewalks, and access management, as I stated earlier, this is the last section of uh Puma Road to be uh studied or widened. Um, as you can see down by the loop 101, it's a six-lane arterial with a median today. And as you go further to the north, it transition transitions to a four-lane arterial with median. And I'll let out the surprise, but one of our recommendations is to continue with that trend and propose a four-lane arterial with medium.

We looked at 10 different intersections for this study corridor. Uh the ones highlighted in the bolded are the ones we looked at to either signalize or put in a roundabout. The other intersections are all stop controlled. So we look at making those intersection uh minor improvements to make sure those operate efficiently.

Uh today, Lone Mountain Road is an existing signalized intersection and Westland Road is also signalized intersection where Stage Coach Pass is stop controlled in the east and westbound direction and Cave Creek Road intersection is a four-way stop control. So, safety is a focus of ours on this study. Uh we heard this from the uh town of Carefree and the city of Scottsdale. Um, there were over 70 crashes in a five-year period along this section of roadway.

57% of the accidents occurred between Stage Coach Pass and Cave Creek Road at the end of the line. And that's how I kind of like to talk about this part of the of Puma Road. Um, this quarter has variable speed limits. So, we have it as high as 50 miles an hour all the way down to 35 miles an hour. And so, the further north you go, the speed slowly starts to drop and decrease. And I think this is one of the reasons why we're having accidents in this location. Plus, it's a two-lane road.

There's not a lot of gray lightning in the area. Um, and so I think we've seen a lot of accidents occurring, especially angled and rear-end accidents. And unfortunately, we did have a traffic fatality at Cave Creek Road and Puma. So, one of our objectives of this study was to slow traffic down as we get as Puma Road comes to the end of the line at the north. So currently today, the uh like I said, the roadway is a a two-lane road, one lane each direction.

It's actually operating level service C and D right now, which is pretty fantastic. But as we move into the future in the year 2035, the quarter starts to fail with all the anticipated growth that's supposed to occur in this area. And by 2050, everything operates at level service F. We held a public meeting, our first public meeting. So after of course we do any study, we collect a lot of data and we start to analyze the system. But this first public meeting was held on November 11th.

And we really wanted to reach out to the residents in along this corridor um to better understand the transportations in the area, transportation issues in the area. Our consultant team, actually one of them lives up there, but I don't live up there as the mag PM. And so I really I really rely on the residents to sit down. We roll out role plot maps.

We start talking to them about the issues that they're witnessing on a daily basis, but we also ask them about transportation opportunities that they would like to see um implemented in this area. So, we had a great turnout. Like I said, we had about 50 residents. This meeting was held at the town of Carefree Council chambers. Uh 63 comments were collected on the role plot.

A lot of the issues focused on safety issues at intersections and driveways, adding signals and roundabouts to slow traffic down in the corridor. Um, increasing the number of lanes to manage traffic and comments about managing the impact of new residential developments. Um, ensuring careful construction phasing. We did ask um the residents a couple questions.

We asked them to describe the existing corridor in one word and the size of the word represents the frequency of the comment comes top of the list is dangerous, busy, congested, loud. We also asked them your ideal ideal future corridor in one word. Rise to the top is safe, safer, quiet, wider, and calm. So after that first public meeting, the consultant team got to work.

We started diving into the alternatives analysis, working with our stakeholders, city of Scottsdale and the town of Carefree were part of our stakeholder team to help lead this study. Um, we presented the alternatives, which we'll get into in a second at June 26th, the Holland Center. Um, again, we had a really good response from the public. We had 82 residents show up. Over a hundred uh responses came in.

Um, again, we walked them through the same slides I'm going to show you tonight, and I'm going to be able to show you the survey responses that we received for each of the recommended alternative to see what the public thinks of these. So, as I stated earlier, our vision for the road widening um follows the city of Scottsdale standards for a rural minor arterial and continuing the four-lane cross-section from Happy Valley Road.

Uh we are proposing a four-lane divided road with a shared use path and trail on the east side of the road and a sidewalk on the west. In addition to four lanes, two in each direction, both north and south, uh there will also include a bike lane. As this um the jurisdiction, the boundary between the town of Carefree and city of Scottsdale, is just north of Stage Coach Pass and the rideway in that area kind of narrows down.

So as we go as we move the corridor to the north um we will have to shrink the corridor a little bit to be able to accommodate this cross-section. So with this four-lane cross-section in the future in the year 2035 the quarter operates pretty well level service B and C. Uh as we move to 2050 um it's level service C which I think is really good for a future uh projection. So now we're going to transition into the intersection recommendations.

We're going to start at Puma Road in Lone Mountain Road. This is an existing signalized intersection. Um we looked at it in the year 2035 and 2050 as a signal. It operates as level service B and C and as a multi-lean roundabout, level service A in 2035 and level service F in 2050.

um roundabout dislocation just would not work with certain movements were very heavy and so it makes more sense to move forward with the signal well keep the signal in place I should say it's an existing signal 92% of the residents voted in favor of the signalized intersection uh the intersection of Westland Road Legend Trail Parkway again this is an existing signalized intersection um the signal operates level service B and C in 2035 and 2050 and again level service A and F in 20 uh 35 and 2050 for the roundabout analysis.

Uh residents voted on this one. Uh they provided their comments and 87% were in favor of the signalized intersection and it's our recommendation that it stays a signal stage coach pass intersection. So, this is currently an uh signalized or a stop controlled intersection on the east and west side and it's uncontrolled north south. We looked at a uh signal for this location and a roundabout. As you can see in the 2035 and 2050, both concepts operated very well to level service A.

We're recommending we go with a traffic signal. the roundabout would take up a little bit more rightway, would cost a little bit more money, and uh we had more stakeholder support for the signalized intersection. Moving north as we go into uh the town of Carefree, uh again, this intersections experienced a lot of safety issues. There's a lot of accidents. We've had a fatality there. We get a lot of boating traffic that or recreational vehicles going out to Bartlett Lake in this area.

So we analyzed it for a a signal and a roundabout. The roundabout um outperformed the signal with level service A in 2035 and 2050 and a signal operated level service B and C. Um our recommendation is to propose a multi-lane roundabout at this location. I did present to the town council last week and they were in favor of this recommendation. As you can see, the public voted 53% for signalized intersection and 47% for multi-lane ring roundabout.

I had a question asked of the people attending the meeting. Do we know who are residents of Scottsdale or residents of Carefree? And we didn't. We didn't ask that information. We didn't collect that information. We just we looked at this as a regional facility and wanted to bring the public into comment. So the cost estimate for this entire corridor including signals and roundabouts is going to and any additional rightaway that we need is around $88.7 million.

Segment 4 um starts 900 ft south of stage coach. So that starts in the city of Scottsdale and then transitions into the town of Carefree. We broke that cost out where the town of Carefree would be responsible for 10.4 million and city of Scottsdale 5.8 million for that last section. So, the next steps, uh, we're going to work with, uh, the town of Carefree and the city of Scottsdale and our consultant group. We're going to finalize the recommendations.

And then we're also going to pull together a mag arterial life cycle program working group. We'll bring in Patrick Stone and his and his team to talk about the funding that the regional funding that we have for this project and figure out a path forward. Uh, Chair Miller, that completes my presentation and I'm happy to answer any questions. Thank you, Mr. Stowe. Commissioners, do you have any questions, comments? Commissioner Bangitz, um, I have a question.

At the beginning of the presentation, you mentioned the east side of the road is going to go to state auction. Can you explain how that works? Uh, that is does it just go to the highest bidder regardless of the land use are going to place there? And also will that development uh place any of the right of way or help with that? Yeah. Um Madame Chair, members of the commission, that's a great question. So it will go to an auction to the highest bidder.

uh they will and I'm not going to speak for the city itself, but they would be I'm assuming required to provide a lot of the infrastructure improvements along the east side of Puma Road and the internal circulation of the development in place, but uh we wouldn't know. I know that certain parts of or certain pieces of state land go to the best and highest use and others go to the highest bidder. This seems to be just high as bidder regardless of what that uses.

I I believe the state lands will will coordinate with the city of Scottsdale on development plans for the area. Okay. And um hold on. I'm have uh if you don't mind, I'm gonna have David Rowski uh follow up with this question. And and I think uh Nathan probably can dovetail into this a little bit. um there is you know certain zoning um that goes along with every um state land auction.

So there's a requirement um as part of that auction in terms of what what can be built and where and how much and and all of that plays into even our study and how we analyze the roadways. Um so we've taken into account um you know that you know potential development and what that looks like based on what it's zoned for.

um they always have the ability to reszone before it goes to auction uh potentially and um all of that then gets taken into account in terms of uh you know how much the land is worth but it's very much driven by what it's zoned for and who is the highest bidder um when it comes to parcels like these. Thank you Chair Miller and thank you David. Yeah, exactly. So this is um going to be single family homes at the same density as Legend Trail around Parkway.

So it'll be similar to that kind of of development and then there is already a development review and a development plan that they have been stipped. So when the developers come in, they will provide the half street improvements along that side of the street. So that that's already been documented that when development comes in, they will be required to put half street improvements along Puma and stage coach 2 on that side.

So we'll try and calculate that in and work that into when we go forward with design that we leave that up so that when development comes in, they put in the remaining pieces of the infrastructure so we don't have to pay the whole bill. Okay. Thank you. Thank you commissioners. Vice Chair Wiloxen. Um yeah, thank you uh Chair Miller and thanks for the presentation. I appreciate it.

Um I'm um I'm wondering when you went out to the uh talk to the uh residents and when you did your analysis, a lot of the presentation focused on um the level of service um how efficiently traffic would move. Was there a study of the safety impacts of that level of service? Was there an LOSS run?

And what I mean for that is, you know, you you've you've costed out the land use and the um the cost of improvements to the intersection, but there each of those signalized intersections is going to have the risk the very real risk of fatalities in the future. And were the residents, first of all, were the residents who voted on these things um told about that? I'm sure they probably understood it.

But did your analysis take into account the fact that there would be a level of safety service that would be traded off with every signalized intersection uh regardless of how well it moves traffic? Uh, hi Vice Chair Carrie Coxin. Um, so we we essentially um did a matrix of comparisons in terms of, you know, the um types of crashes that we saw at each of these intersections. We didn't actually com like conduct an actual LOSs for the corridor.

Um it was more looking at the types of crashes, the severity of the crashes and then a benefit cost for each of these. So um we looked at specifically at stage coach. Um and that one was you know more of all right like we have a speed that starts at 50 miles an hour and then reduces down to 35 and we have a history of left turn crashes there. So like how can we really make that that work?

Um and it comes down to you know weighing both cost and and safety in that sense but um we we didn't actually conduct an actual you know level of of an actual loss if that uh answers your question. Right. Yeah. And I I I didn't think so. I would imagine you would have presented that if you had.

So my my real question is if if this best case scenario or worst case scenario, whatever you whatever your outlook, if we put in 5,000 homes there, um I think the trip generation is about 10 trips per house. Um so you're basing the analysis of how a signal is going to work on the current traffic volume when the volume is, I'm assuming, going to increase by that much.

Um, I I I think there was a little too much attention put on level of efficiency at moving things and not enough on the actual cost of crashes to Scottsdale and to Cave Creek, not to mention the people in there. Um, that concerns me. But um that's really my only question, only comment. Thank you. And sir, can you state your name for the the minutes for ACE Griers? Hi, I'm uh Zach Handy with Kelly Horn. Thank you. Commission Commissioner Marman. Thank you. Um good presentation, Mr. Stro.

Could you go to the Lone Mountain slide please? Um, there you go. I'm not sure. I don't understand why the roundabout got negative in all categories. Well, I think a large percentage of it was the So, Lone Mountain today is a T intersection. And so when the new state lands comes in, it'll create a four-legged intersection. There'll be a lot more uh traffic entering the the intersection. And so just based on the different movements, it would fail from an operation standpoint.

And the ride the roundabout would take significantly more uh rightway in this area as well. Well, I I concur with um Commissioner comments about safety. I don't think you evaluate safety enough that the it's a priority in our transportation action plan and um community vote is very very important. There's no question about that. But I didn't see any emphasis on safety. So in this report a lot of our recommendations were also based on stakeholder support. So from the city of Scottsdale itself.

So, this was an existing signal out there today and so the recommendation was to keep it the same um keep it the same moving forward in the future. It outweighed the the impacts of a potential roundabout that location. Could you go to the um stage coach slide please? Yes. And as as you mentioned, we have a a 15 mph speed limit drop. Wouldn't So I do believe we need some traffic calming in there. We've seen Yeah.

And that's why we looked at the different like the roundabout concept at Cave Creek Road uh to help slow people down. So it transitions, I think, at this point from like 45 miles an hour and then goes to 35. um in this area. There's also different minor improvements we're recommending to help slow traffic down. Lots of uh like for the stop controlled intersections having flashing reds or flashing stop signs in the area.

Um but yeah, again, this this recommendation is is based on uh this this also stage two was passed was also passed a signal warrant analysis by the by the city of Scottsdale I think in 2016 and 2023. Um, what what kind of traffic traffic calming would you put in to slow this down or what would you recommend? Madam Chair, uh, Commissioner, um, so there's there's a couple things. So number one, this the speed limit through this area is 50 miles an hour. That will drop to 45 um with future designs.

That's typical of everything that's happening to the south. So that's that's one component of it. Um the the sheer uh completing a a complete street um brings with it safety enhancements uh pedestrians uh bicyclists um right now it's very rural roadway um and there's very much um some safety components that are built into your typical complete street. Um there's yeah there's also ADA components and whatnot.

Um, one of one of the big things what we see with um some of the intersections um in terms of how crashes occur and whatnot is a lot um in relation to do you have adequate turn lanes? Do you have turn lanes? Um all of the typical intersection components which are are missing out there today. Um so those are the types of things that are are also taken into account when you when you look back and forth.

um you know when you look at um these slides it looks like well this is this is negative it's it's negative it's the the X is a disadvantage when compared to a signal not it could be very small it could be much larger um but it's it's not you know you can't look at it like this is this is a negative component of that alternative it's just that when you compare them that one has a disadvantage compared to the other um I will say that throughout the entire corridor.

There's other things that we have included in the study as recommendations uh being uh left turn uh refuge areas um and dedicated left turn lanes at certain areas um whereas people are kind of turning out freely into the road today. Um all of those different improvements change how the actual corridor functions overall. um creates better driver awareness um uh better uh expectation for drivers.

Um so when we add median islands and there's a driveway, there's access control that comes along with that. Um and certain those components all play into the overall safety of the corridor as well as safety of the intersections. Um because we do have some control that happens at the intersections when it comes to access control and whatnot. It just becomes more familiar for people when you uh do the full buildout and make it into a complete street or a complete intersection in these cases.

Thank you, Vice Chair Wilcox, and you've had a follow-up. Yeah. Uh thanks again. I I just occurred to me looking at your slides and and um Commissioner Marman's questions. Um I work for ADOT. Um, I hired Kimley Horn to do our safety plan. We hired Kimley Horn to do our intersection control evaluation plan.

Um, you at Kimley Horn will know that when you add more capacity and when you clean the roads up, make them straight, wider, put a median in the middle, one thing you're going to increase is speed. I I just want to make sure that that's taken in consideration. I know we keep talking about stepping the speed limit down and that's probably going to continue, but speed limits really don't dictate how people are going to drive.

So to Commissioner Marman's question, I would I would I would caution the assumptions that this will make the road safer. um to my earlier comments, the signals are certainly not going to be a a safety feature. They're certainly not going to be a a traffic calming feature. And I just want to make sure that I'm clear and that everyone is clear. When you did your analysis of a roundabout, what you've got pictured there is a turbo roundabout, not a multi-lane roundabout.

I mean, that's a form of multi-lane, but there's a difference between a turbo roundabout and a regular roundabout. a regular roundabout operates differently. And I know this because Kimley Horn's own expert told me so. So I just want to make sure that when you did your analysis for Lo level of service, you weren't comparing a turbo roundabout, which is probably not appropriate for this area with a regular round or in place of a regular roundabout.

Do you know what type of roundabout you used in your analysis? Vice Chair Coxinson, I we actually uh did have a roundabout expert uh help us out with this corridor study um out of Colorado and uh they I believe they did use a multi-lane roundabout, not a turbo roundabout uh for for the analysis. Your slide is just off. Well, the the concept shown here, uh I I believe they they talked about this being more of a a buffer design. Um we can we have we have literature on on that as as well.

Uh I become I believe it's coming more common place like in the as as a modern roundabout feature. Um we can definitely send you more more information on that. I I don't personally have all all the information on that but um I I I believe this was this was not intended to be a turbo roundabout. Okay. and I I work with Kim Lehorn and your Colorado Xer is probably on our ice committee and is probably giving us the same information.

So I just I'm concerned that safety and speed in this case to Commissioner Marman's point has not been considered and that we're asking well we're asking the wrong questions. That's all I have. Commissioner Kofile. Um, I'm going to ask much less technical questions than my uh previous two uh commissioner colleagues, although I echo all their um concerns about safety. Um, that's normally my primary concern.

uh on slide 13 there was a lot of um initialisms used and I didn't recognize all those initialisms and I was just wondering if you could uh if you could kind of go through what what those are like I know like SU would be a shared use path and but uh RW is that right right away what's SWK commissioner um yes so if I go from left to right here we've got rightway um RW uh the S SWK is a sidewalk in this case um the typical setup has been an 8 foot sidewalk on the west side um when we get to the other side we've got a shared use path um that's typically been 10 feet um and that's consistent throughout the corridor um and then we have PAE which is actually that public access easement that is uh right there um I think I've caught them all is yeah everything else is pretty self-explan- explanatory.

Uh a question on sidewalk versus shared use path. Uh so is it just the width of it? So a sidewalk is 8 feet and and a and a shared use path is 10 feet. I'll be happy with uh thank you chair Miller and uh Commissioner Kofile. Uh throughout this entire corridor, yes, it's just width, but throughout this entire corridor on the west side is a sidewalk or our standard six foot sidewalk and then on the east side is going to be our standard multi-use path. to about 10 to 12 ft.

Um then we will stripe the multi-use path so that we see two different uh um directions being used for that. But that's that's going to be consistent throughout the whole quarter that we're doing sidewalk on one side and multi path on the other. Cool. Thank you very much, Commissioner. Thank you, Chair Miller. in terms of the resident feedback that you received. So, I'm less familiar with this part of town, but looking at, you know, your map, it looks like it's not particularly inhabited.

So, are there many residents living right in that corridor or, you know, who were the people that were and how does that relate to these 5,000 homes bringing, you know, 10 to 15,000 new residents? Um, how is that comparison number-wise? Yeah. So you can see on the on the map on the west side, it's pretty well developed. There's communities up uh from C from Stage Coach Pass all the way down. Um there is a development on the east side, you can see uh that's out there currently today.

Um a lot of the residents were very surprised about the number of homes coming in. They thought it was part of the Scottsdale Preserve out here to be quite honest with you. So they were more in shock about the amount of growth occurring than us widening the roadway. Uh they were very in they were absolutely in support of us adding additional lanes and um adding the roundabout at Cave Creek Road and the signals at the other other intersections. Very positive feedback. Okay.

Well, and I would just echo the safety concerns of other commissioners and you know keeping in mind those future residents as well and you know hopefully families and people that would um you know safety be top of mind for them for their neighborhood. Absolutely. And Chair Biller and Treasures Commission. I'd like to just comment for a second on that that the task that we gave Kimley Horn and and Mag was to evaluate widening of the roadway.

It's been on the books to widen this to four lanes for quite a while now and get us as a decent cost estimate and look at what kind of rideway acquisition and uh drainage improvements we might need as well as what it would be as an impact on the level of service. We definitely um have heard your your emphasis on safety and we'll make sure that we address that and bring that to this project moving forward. This is just a PA and a cost estimate.

So we will look to um give a heightened awareness to safety on this corridor and see how we can improve that in the design moving forward. Thank you. Um I have a few questions. So remind me how long this corridor is. 4.1 miles, four miles with 10 potentially signalized intersections. No. Um, Madame Chair, so there's only currently today there's only two signalized intersections. The rest of them are just access to communities, so stop controlled.

And then we're going to um recommend the roundabout at Cave Creek Road and Stage P Stage Coach Path. So there'll be four intersections in the future that are not stop controlled. So, all the other ones, only the ones highlighted in bold will be either a signal or a roundabout. Okay. Little round circles. The only two that are getting uh added are Stage Coast and Cape Creek. Yeah. Okay.

Um now the how many homes do you think will be directly impacted as far as as um as their property right away when you design this? So the the widening of Puma Road will be going to the east. So it will not impact any of the residents on the west side of the road that are there today.

I think with the and my team can correct me on this, but the roundabout at Cave Creek Road, we will take a little bit of rightway in the southeast corner, but it will we're not taking any homes or anything, just a little bit of additional rightway. Okay. Uh, Madam Chair, just to clarify, so there will be spots of right of way, mostly around intersections. Okay. Um, wherever we widen an intersection, there's typically some type of right of way that will need to be acquired.

Um, the way that the roadway is setting up in terms of the design right now, it's largely shifted a little bit further to the east. Um and that is for construction phasing and um just you know that making sure that we have room for people to actually you know still use PEMA road while we're out there building additional lane widths.

Um largely the the right of way um will be in and around those intersections, but it's it's kind of few and far between on the west side in terms of actual impact, but as as Tim noted that you know depending on the the makeup of the Cave Creek roundabout, there was some impacts on that southeast corner. Um and you know just in terms of getting trails in and those types of things that come with the community um it would be planned in on the east side um with that development anyway.

Um tell me about your outreach efforts you described the how many people came to your meeting but how many people did you reach out to and how did you do that? Uh that's a great question uh madam chair. So, of course, we did the typical standard um social media outreach um email blasts, but we also mailed postcards. I think we mailed around 8,000 postcards to folks along this corridor. Uh we really wanted to try to get there. How far did you I believe a mile on both sides, right?

Yeah, a mile on both sides. Um but then we also worked, like I said, with the town of Carefree and others to really try to send it out emails, social media. Um, we did newspaper ads and I think three different newspapers. So, we try to really blanket the area to get as much involvement as possible. Now, when you talked about the percentage of people who supported a signalized intersection versus a roundabout though, you were actually talking about the people who responded.

So, you had a hundred responses. So, basically, you're talking 78 people versus 22 people. not not a necessarily statistically valid survey. Correct, Madam Chair? Yeah. So, yeah, we we like I said, we extended the invitation to the residents to come and attend and participate. We had an online interactive comment map for folks that were not physically able to attend our meetings. They could do so online. They could we had surveys on there. They were able to send us emails.

So yeah, we we did the um I thought we did a pretty good job of blanketing the area to get the most public impact as possible or most feedback as possible. Okay. As a friend of mine once had in his office, the world belongs to those who show up. So um Commissioner Penguins, um I have a follow-up question for staff. Is this a section of Scottsdale that's more of the dark sky? Um, thank you, Chair Miller and, uh, Commissioner Pinwitz.

We don't have an official dark sky policy, but yes, I guess this would fall under the community that is looking for us to adhere to dark sky as much as possible. So, in this design, as we've done in uh, more southern sections of this corridor, we would limit street lights to just the intersections themselves or roundabouts if they were hypothetically done, but that's not a carefree. Can you go back to the cross section, the street crosssection?

Um, I I guess I have a concern about bike lanes that are not protected uh in a portion of uh the city that's relatively dark. And I I've driven on those portions of the city. It's even dark to drive in. I can't even imagine um biking and I am wondering if there is an opportunity to maybe just put the bike lanes along the sidewalk and use use the space along the sidewalk so that bikers are actually um away from traffic.

residents do have an opportunity to use the shared use path as well which gets them out of the roadway itself. Yeah, it it's just um you know when when you have the opportunity to use one or the other and you have people like myself, I would not use the bike lane. I would probably use the the trail. But uh we know that the average person that gets killed on a crash tends to be a male of certain age who thinks that they can brave everything. And um I have I I have a safety concern regarding that.

And um I've even seen people use the uh bike lanes for running sometimes because they don't ask me why, but they prefer it for their knees or whatever. And it just seems like an opportunity to actually provide more safety by separating the two and just not even allowing for a bike path. But that that's just my that's my personal preference and I know that not all people who bike share that.

But when we have conditions that are that dark and when we know that nationally most people tend to get hit at night, it it's kind of a concern. Yeah, this this area is challenging. So, you have agencies that want to keep the area dark, right, and not install a lot of signals, but then you have a lot of accidents potentially because of the lack of lighting, right? And then you have a lot of support in this area for the pack bike riding like on the weekends, they go up and down this corridor.

So, I know there's a big demand and a lot of asking for bike lanes in this area. I know the shared use path would would is fantastic. There's a lot of public support for that as well. So, it's kind of how do we balance all of this, right? Um it makes it challenging to say the least, but I thank you for your comments on that. I appreciate that. Thank you. Any other comments, questions? Thank you, gentlemen, very much for your presentation and for all of your your answers to our questions.

We really appreciate you coming. Thank you for having us here tonight. Appreciate it. Next up is Scottdale signaling system left turn signals and red light triumph timing. John Hong, senior manager, traffic engineer. Chair Miller, Vice Chair Will Coxin, Commissioners, thank you for having me. Tonight's presentation is a continuation of the conversation we had several months ago in the traffic management center, the essential functions and uh the signal system that we have.

I'm going to start out with the video. Scottsdale's Traffic Management Center, or TMC, launched in 1993 with just one camera to help ease traffic during the Phoenix Open. Today, it's a cuttingedge operation managing traffic at over 300 intersections and more than 14,000 street lights across the city.

Staffed by traffic engineers, analysts, and technicians, the TMC's essential functions include live traffic monitoring, signal timing, incident response, managing roadway restrictions, coordinating special events, and delivering real-time traveler info. With 226 miles of fiber optics and over 200 video detection systems, the TMC makes real-time adjustments to minimize traffic congestion.

Signal timing is updated based on thorough analysis and advanced modeling tools tailored to each intersection's traffic volumes and roadway design, ensuring safe and efficient operations. Signal timing is adjusted daily to respond to changing traffic patterns, construction, and big events. Smart, responsive, and ready, Scottsdale's TMC keeps your commute safer, faster, and more efficient. Okay, that's a good segway of what um I'm kind of presenting.

It's about the left hand signals, the lead lag and the signals change um um clearance interval. So I'll start out with so that's basically what we're going to talk about the signal basics the LEAC operations the surrounding agency comparison the signal clearance times and also the um staff recommendation at the end um start out with a very basic step. This is what um all the drivers will see at the traffic signal that we have.

On the left is a option of permissive protected uh signal indications and on the right is a protected only. Going to go over more in details with those. Um so this is just a quick look if we were going to have the leading left hand arrow sequence.

Um you're gonna see um so from top to right to the bot and to the right you're going to see the left hand arrow is going to be on first if it's leading and if is u uh leading through you're going to see the green balls um starting out first and then if it's a lagging you're going to see the through starting out first and and the lagging the left turn arrows kind of be at the end.

All of that is this just want to confuse you guys a little bit but if it's leading we just kind of have the left hand arrow starting and if it's lagging the left hand arrow is going to be at the end. So um basically three different left turn operations. We have the permitted which is uh very efficient but it's going to require drivers actually pick the gap to see if you know against the approaching um traffic.

The protected in the middle is a very safe movement but it's kind of creates a lot of delay um at the intersection. Oh, and then the last one is a combination of the protective permissive which is going to have both. It it's a compromise of uh safety and efficiency.

So, um the NCHIP is a national cooperative highway uh research um uh published uh 284 kind of indicated that since 2003 the majority 80% more than 80 80% of the agencies around the nation tend to use if they have the per permissive protected that um they tend to be leading with those movements and then we have about 10% lagging and then um um 6% of the lead lag which is uh um depends on the operations. Um fast forward to today um the majority of it is still like that.

um it's going to be a a major a big number still um lead at most of the intersection. We also look at different um research reports and all of that mentioned above but at the end the similar crash rates for leading and lagging we don't see the big difference is not really a statistical evidence of difference if it's leading or lagging. It depends on drivers behavior. Um so consideration based on the mo multiple factors such as safety efficiency consistency and also the resources.

Um this is a comparison of the agency around us. We have um 10 agencies reported back what they doing. So I'm kind of focused on the top three leading ley at all directions. So starting now with Scottdale, we have more than 300 signals. We have 5% leading. Uh going across Chandler has about 30%. Gilbert recently changed five years ago or seven years ago they have a lot of lagging but they recently changed to more than 95% leading. Uh, MCDOT is 100%, Mesa is about 90.

Um, Peoria about 50%, uh, Phoenix is I think it's 85%. Uh, Surprise is 91%, Tempe is about 10 and then go down to lagging all directions, we have about 13% going across um, Phoenix is about 10%. Lee lag or directions is a combination of lead and lag depends on the movement. Uh we have about 10%. Um MEAs has a we have about 7%. Mesa has about 10%.

And the the I want to go down to the mix left turn operation is the green highlighted area is kind of consistent with what um a lot of agencies are doing. Scottdale has about 37% Chandler very similar 38% Glendale is 90 59% Poria is at 35 and TP is about 36%. So that's a quick comparison of what the other agencies are doing. I think a few questions came up. One of the questions came up. Why don't we just stick with lagging or leading?

Um, and so this one, if you're looking at that, um, it looks like there's a lot of I have a video or two, but I just quickly go over this. A lot of left turner blocking the through lane. And if we were going to lag the left turn lane, that means we're going to block all the through lanes, all the through traffic. So there's a video coming up. I'll quickly I'm not sure if you can see my mouse. So this is a traffic signal system that we have on the right is our uh CCTV system.

They actually concurrently we I'm going to press play and it'll concurrent. So I'll quickly go over this direction is northbound. just kind of show it, but I just quick southbound, eastbound westbound. And we want to focus on this uh movement right here. There's no audio though. Um, as you can see, traffic is actually loading up in this area and it's just like the the sketch before is actually blocking the through lanes.

And in this situation, if we're going to lag, we can actually block out the through movement. So, at this location, this is at Mountain View and 90th Street. We lead at this location. We flush all the left turn traffic volumes out. Clear enough for the through movement in this area right here. So that's one of the reason why we don't use lagging at all locations. Okay.

Very similarly, well this is just a justification of why we lead um and very similar to what we just discussed that it's gonna provide additional capacity. Um the impacts is always going to be the geometries of the lanes uh the traffic volume the the cycle length the drivers behavior. Um so leading is most of most of the time is kind of optimize the operation at most cases. So this one is actually at the the opposite of what we just show.

So, if we were to lead at this location, you see how over here the left turn arrow is on, but there's no traffic because the people that wanted to make a left is being blocked by the through. So, in this situation, um, we should lag this location and there's a video describing that. So this location is at Indian school on 68. I think you guys very familiar with this. We have a few projects at this location.

So same thing on the left is the traffic signal system that we have CCTV describing the same thing that we do in here. Out run the video and you have description northbound, southbound, east west. I think it's running for this video. We want to focus on this one right here. There's a lot of there's high through traffic volume blocking the left turn lane. So, at this location, we lag the left turn lane. We clear the through traffic out. See, there's the left turners are coming in.

This is actually the same thing. It's right now it's showing green arrows. That means the through the north south through movements are on and it's turning yellow and now the left turn is on as these people here. So that's kind of the reason why we don't just do all lead or or or all lag.

So for the lagging operation um a lot of these situations uh kind of apply for the freeway freeway traffic interchange because of the limited um storage area the spacing of the signals and also um I think that's yeah so the combination of leading and lagging provides better optim optimization for the entire corridor depends on the time of day. So I think we kind of that was the slide that mentioned about um yellow trap. I I want to save this so we can talk about it.

So this one right here is on it's kind of sequential. So there's a person right here that in the left turn area they left actually this is the detection area right here but they left the detection area assuming that they're going to get the left turn arrow activated which which is not true. So they keep on waiting more traffic is coming. Um but because they left the area right it's not activated. This one there's a lot of left turn traffic demand. So the arrow is activated activated.

So they just s in here and wait. Eventually this his whole area right here being stopped. So that person right there feel trapped or being trapped because traffic keep on coming at them. Um, and I guess when you get nervous, you just kind of make a left turn lane in front of a lot of vehicles. And that's what happened. We have a crash. The safe way to actually solve the left turn trap is this one right here.

So once we have the lagging arrow, we're going to have to have to activate both left turn movements regardless if there's any traffic in this area or not. Like as you can see right here. So if there's traffic demand here, this left hand arrow is going to be activated. But this one is not. But to be safe, we have to activate both. um is safe but is not as efficient. So in summary, leading or lagging is not a one-sizefitit all.

Um we're trying to be consistent within the city and also the agencies around us. So if the traffic engineers have the flexibility of pick and choose which operation um I think is probably the best option for us. So we know based on uh thorough analysis um optimal throughput and safety safety and available resources. I think if it's if we have that flexibility, the option of doing that, we're able to improve traffic operations the entire city. So that's that's one topic.

We're going to move on to the next one, the lama zone or now they call it decisions zone. The yellow area is what we're going to focus on. So if if you're not familiar, if you're approaching the intersection, if the yellow is turning if the light is turning yellow in this area right here, the proper goal, you should have enough time to actually make it through the intersection. The yellow area is the area that people's going to go, should I go, should I stop kind of thing.

Um, and I'll have more information on this one. Look at this right here. The yellow area. This is the beginning zone and this is actually the end and there's more information about that. So um we have roughly about 5.5 seconds from the beginning of the zone for the drivers actually cross if you're at the end. So you have less of course because you're closer to the intersection it's it's going to be less time it's about 2.5 seconds and this is all based on the post speed limit 3540 and so on.

So go back to the signal change um clearance interval we have two parameters right here the yellow change and also the red change. If we have too much time or too little time, we kind of go back to that dilemma zone that we discussed. People don't have enough time to actually safely cross the intersection and um potentially uh crashes may occur.

And all of this is going to depends on because the decision zone is going to be based on drivers behavior, drivers action, drivers perception, reaction and all of that. Um so the zones is going to be different depends on who the drivers are. Uh similarly with the red clearance if if we have too short of a red clearance um it's a potential conflict with the other phase.

If we have too long it'll be a waste of time um at the intersection and it depends on it's all depends again how big your vehicle is how long a passenger car versus a trailer. So according to the MUTCD based on the speed 25 miles per hour the yellow TAM should be about 3 seconds 30 should be about 3.2 35 is about 3.6 and so on. Um this is a comparison what we have in Scottdale. This location is at Scottsdale and Frank Lloyd Wright.

If you look at this that purple box right here, the yellow time, let's just look because the through uh posted at 45 miles hour. The left turn lanes are not going that high. So, let's just focus on the through which is number two, four, six, and eight. If you look down, we have about 4.7 seconds for the yellow time. If you want at 45 miles per hour, let me go back to this one right here.

At 45 miles per hour, MUTCD recommended that we should have minimum of 4.3 and we actually meet or exceed at 4.7 at this location. So looking at at the other agency standard of practice, the documents that we kind of reference is the IT guidelines, the signal timing manual in 2015 though the Aztec white paper. Currently there are two agencies uh piloting increase in yellow time.

So whatever that the MDTCD recommended they trying to increase more but they still piloting projects and there'll be one agencies can be done in 2026 the other one is 2028 there's a study in California found increasing clearance interval greater than the IT guidelines with increase in the number of angles collisions which is one of the most severe collision types.

Um the overall collisions kind of slightly decrease but it's probably because of the decrease in rean collision which is the least severe collision types. So the guidelines I could have mentioned is that one right there, the IT guidelines and also the Aztec white paper. And about five years ago um all of the agencies I think we have 13 agencies kind of involved in this white paper provided the formulas the way that they come up with the yellow and the red times also the pedestrians time.

So um we are actually kind of rely on and leverage the technology. This is I think some of the it was presented before but I'm gonna kind of present it again here is the technology um that we able to extend in real time for pedestrians and also um vehicles. The video I'm going to show the next two is going to be for bicyclists. As you can see, there's no audios, but you see there's a lot of activities, pedestrians and bicyclists.

When they are in the box right here, the box is they light it light up extending the green for the bicyclist and pedestrians. That's one video. And another one is for the platoon of the bicyclist. Focus on this one right here. When the light is green, there's a lot of pedestrians or bicyclist going through. But once they in the box, you can see it's it's even the vehicles, it doesn't light up the box. Only the bicyclist light up the box.

Say extending the time until the last bicyclist is out of the box. it'll turn off. So that's the technology that we are testing. So instead of the traditional adding one or two seconds to the yellow time, we can have something like this and it's only a needed kind of base on needed basis. If they are bicyclist, we're going to detect, we're going to extend, we're going to give them enough time to actually go through the intersection. Very similarly, we have a video.

It's it's still kind of like a beta testing, but we talked about the dilemma zone right here. This is the dilemma zone detection zone that we have. Um, so if there's vehicle over here, we're going to extend the green light for that movement. I'm going to run the video. As you can see right here, there's a few vehicles are going through that. And the goal is trying to extend the time when people are there, not every cycle of the traffic signal. It's um it's it's a lot of movement.

There's a lot of information on here, but um that's just see if there's no vehicle there. It's not detecting it. So that's what we're testing and so far so good. But eventually we'll deploy some of them at the high crash intersections that we have in Scottsdale. staff recommendation. So, the city of Scottdale currently meet or exceed the minimum yellow change and our clearance times are more conservative and consistent with the standard practice and requirements.

We're going to try to leverage the IT technologies and pilot projects to provide green time extension to increase intersection safety. That's all I have. I'll take any questions you may have. Thank you for the presentation. Any questions? We'll start with Commissioner Kofile. Uh thank you. As uh usual uh your presentation is extremely informative. I have uh a few different questions. Um mostly it's about um mostly it's about the yellow lights.

Uh so as somebody who wasn't born in the valley, I moved here when in my 20s. Um the main thing I noticed about Phoenix, the Phoenix area, is that the yellow lights seemed really long to me. And so I got really used to, you know, when when I uh when I came from where I came from, if I saw a yellow light, I would immediately start slowing down uh because I knew I wasn't going to have much time here.

When I moved here and I saw a yellow light, I would either speed up or continue at my normal speed because I knew how long uh our intersections how how long I would have for that yellow. And so it makes me have a couple of thoughts. Uh you know there is I'm wondering how we compare like you said we meet or exceed the guidelines. Um, how does Scottsdale compare to like the rest of the country?

Especially because Scottsdale is such a tourist destination that we would have a lot of people coming from other locations that might not have not might not have yellow lights as long as ours and they might uh have, you know, their their behaviors might change, you know, more than what they would expect from somebody who was here. Um who's somebody who spent a lot of time here. Um, I would and was wondering how we compare to other municipalities within the valley.

Like I, you know, when I first moved here, I first moved to Mesa and the yellow lights in Mesa seemed like they lasted for 30 seconds. Um, you know, they seem like they uh lasted less here, but uh, you know, that might have just been because I got used to how long the lights were by the time I moved to Scottsdale.

Um and then the other the other thing I I would say is just a a lot of the comments that I heard uh from our previous presentation was really concentrated on level of service efficiency of the intersection and uh I know this department is also really focused on safety but you know I would look for what is the most safe way rather than the most efficient way to move people through here.

It's just kind of hearing the like, oh yeah, we'll we'll waste a, you know, cuz 4.2 seconds versus 4.7 seconds for a yellow might mean we waste a bunch of time, you know, in in this intersection, there'll just be wasted time. But if that's a more if a longer red light clearing red will will result in a safer overall intersection, I think that trade-off that that half second is probably worth it. Um, and so I just wanted to uh I just wanted to mention that as well.

But I guess my main like like I said, my main question is how how do we compare to other uh areas of the country as far as our yellow lights are are concerned and how do we compare to other municipalities in the valley for the yellows? Chair Miller, Commissioner Cuffy, those are very good questions.

So let's start out with um the agency the surrounding agencies the white paper that I showed a lot of us I think a lot of agencies are doing very similar things I have the whole report of this if you want to take a look at it but this is actually a comparison we have formulas we if you do the math the numbers are very similar except for the two agencies that I mentioned that they highlighting increasing the yellow time um because they were not doing enough. So that's why they increasing it.

So they're still testing. So that's for the agency surrounding agencies the valley comparison. As far as nationwide, we have not done that. Look into that. But if you're going to use this document right right here, the IT um guidelines and also the MUTCD, I would assume that the other agencies are doing the same thing. Um I would say very similar to what everybody else is doing in the nation. You want me to go back? I think you kind of mentioned about the 4 seconds.

That's a So, um, this slide has kind of like if we have too little, it's not safe. If we have too much, people kind of take advantage of it and it's inefficient and all of that. Um, so that's kind of what you you you mentioned the what what is the best, right? And the answer is the best is probably depends on each driver. But as far as we do, we meet or exceed the requirement, I think as um it's it's probably good. Um and what was another question do you have?

I think um that was the main question. Okay. Yeah, that was the main questions. I think the I think I heard you say uh that the the length the way that we have with our modern is the amount of time uh or lagging and leading intervals that does change throughout the day depending.

So like maybe there's a lot of traffic moving north at the start of the day and then there's a lot of traffic moving south at the end of the day and so our leading lagging will switch in the day in the morning it might be leading with then a lagging and then and then a lagging with a leading going the other direction or something like that. Was that correct? That's correct. So it depends on the the corridor. Okay.

And then uh the first presentation that you had about why uh we would want a uh leading there uh I I just looking at the video it you know you said see look this starts to get backed up. Yeah this one here where you said this starts to get backed up but when we're when I was watching the video there was no other drivers showed up so like nobody ended up getting blocked or anything like that. It's I your point was made.

I just noticed that like it didn't really matter whether it was leading or lagging because nobody got blocked and so nobody was inconvenienced regardless of whether that was leading or lagging at that one. So yeah, that that was just one location but we have a busier location area that is is kind of show exactly that. But I at least we we got our points across. Yep. Thank you. Thank you. And again, thank thank for the presentation. Thank you, Commissioner Marman. Thank you. Good presentation.

I excuse me. I have a couple of questions. This slide right here. Can we go to the uh lagging slide, the one right after, please? Right there. No, go back one. At what point do you say we need to restripe or change that median to get more capacity out there where that left turn is is overflowing. Chair Miller, um, Commissioner Marman, I think that's a good very good question.

So when you know I think one of the slides I mentioned about resources um what's the best way that what's the cheapest way to actually solve the problem we would probably go with the operation um how how can we actually move traffic without modifying the median because it's uh that option normally cost a lot more.

So um that is an option but it's probably um number two or number three options actually to do whitening but in some area we have to do it because we have tried the operational solution but it doesn't work for example Hayden um and yeah some locations that we actually want in the two lane we extended the left turn lane same thing with Shay winding that was just recently completed so But we always look for the op operational option first and then try on move on to the next options. Okay.

Thank you. Could you go to the yellow trap slide please? Okay. The um the car in question was on the detector and then moved off. Why doesn't the detector remember that there was a car there and and go through the whole cycle knowing there was a car there? Chairman instead of forgetting. Yeah, Chair Miller, Commissioner Mman, that's a very good question and it's going to go back to efficiency. Normally we have an option to lock a pe a driver if they pass through.

But then if we let's just say if we lock it and that person was able to actually make a left through a permissive phase. So we are holding the left turn arrow for a few seconds for nobody. So we have the option at some location we do lock it but most of the time if the driver left the detection zone for about two or three seconds that it deactivate um the detection area. Okay. So yeah it's it's it's about efficiency that we trying to do. Thank you.

My I guess my last question is I guess modeling the system. Let's say there was an accident somewhere blocking two lanes. Do you have a way of modeling the overflow and adjusting signals in real time to keep the traffic moving? And uh yes, we do. I I'm not sure if you were at the TMC several months ago.

We demonstrate that we actually if there's an incident we can actually extend if traffic is backing up a quarter of a mile or longer we can actually extend it for as long as you want like three minutes. I've done three minutes before. So um to actually get rid of the backup and not to create the secondary crashes. So things like that, we could do it in real time. Okay. Thank you, Commissioner Kufta.

Uh just a followup to Commissioner Marman's uh comment as uh one of those male cyclists who feel more comfortable in in riding in the road. Um, I would like it if they all got locked because there are times where I have to wait when I want to make a left turn. I have to wait till traffic clears or slows down enough for me to get into that turn lane and then I don't trigger the uh the light.

And so, but maybe there is somebody sitting in the intersection who's able to then clear it and then I'm stuck uh uh waiting another cycle before I can actually get through on my bicycle. So, um, I like the idea of of locking it if somebody was in there. So, thank that's all. Thank you. That's a good point. We can certainly do that and we'll we'll work with you on which um location corridors that you know you see. We normally try to focus on the high bicyclist corridor. We can easily do that.

Vice Vice Chair Vice Chair Wilkins. Thank you uh Chair Miller and uh thanks John for the presentation. I always learn a lot when I hear about signals. I don't work in that area that often. Uh I did have uh two comments and three questions. Uh hopefully they'll be quick. First of all, I support the suppress the uh the um the approach of not selecting l leading or lagging but using whichever version meets conditions locally the best. I like what you're doing. So, that's good.

Um, second one, um, when you're looking at the literature, I think there was a I think there was a study that was written by one of the former heads of Scottsdale traffic, Paul Basha, that actually uh went over the safety benefits of um the I think leading uh versus lagging. Um, and it had to do with severity of crashes. So I don't remember it other than there might have been some more difference in in severity.

Um but my my questions uh have to do with for the dilemma zone that you talked about. I know that some um red light camera providers can actually uh or have a system now that they can actually when they detect a vehicle that is in the dilemma zone that is not going to stop. They will hold the green on all the other approaches, put the, you know, put the intersection in red and then issue a citation to that red light runner without allowing the conflict.

Have we done anything with that kind of technology? I know you're not here to talk about red light cameras, but are you first of all, you're familiar with it and second of all, have we ever considered experimenting with that? So red light camera PD is in charge of that. Um so we yeah we we don't venture into that area. Uh but we can always discuss with that. This is very similar to what I'm presenting here that detection zone.

We actually kind of if somebody's in this zone and they we know that they're not going to stop. We're going to extend the green for them to actually safely get in through the intersection and hold the other directions. very similar approach that we testing it here. Um so we are looking at I was you know thinking that you can ask this question but I might as well throw it out there. So we when I mentioned the IT technology we don't just look at one.

So there's video detection system there's LAR detection system there's also infrared uh thermal imaging um detection system. So we looking at all of those technologies and see what's the best for us and then we implement it. Sure. And I I appreciate that and I I I would just just say that while this is great that you have that ability, you're kind of rewarding somebody who is breaking the law by giving them more green time. And I while I I support that, I mean I I don't support that.

support uh uh a system that penalizes people who take advantage because people do learn pretty quickly that oh this intersection I can I can push the yellow or I can push the green or whatever based on past experience. I mean we we know that is happening. So, I guess I would just suggest that you look at the dilemma zone red light cameras um or red light camera systems, which you're halfway there.

Um the other question I had, one of the other questions was uh when you talked about the bicycle um extension, I I that was the first I'd seen that and that was pretty impressive. That's a that's a uh an example of adaptive signal control. Is that correct? Yes, that's How many locations do we have this setup at and are they standard or are we just testing? So, right now we only have one, but we have just recently installed four of these systems.

The one location that we have currently is drink water and fifth. Okay. But we, you know, we kind of keep on expanding. Yeah, that's great. I like that.

And then the final question I have is um again the way you're managing traffic um there is of course a safety benefit but there's also an air quality benefit and I wonder if anyone in the city has or in the MAG region has tried to capture um the air quality benefits of more active traffic control as a potential source of additional funding or a potential source of um additional accolades for the city. Yes, that's a very good question.

Um normally every year we have two T-OP projects with MAC and not just the air quality. We're looking at um the delay, the congestion. We have the formulas actually to convert it to into the dollars, how much we save, like millions of dollars. if we're able to get people through the intersection. Um, yeah. So, we we have that um information also. Okay. Working with MAG. Thank you. Thank you. Any other questions? Again, thank you so much for the presentation. Thank you for the work.

Um, I think we support all of the the uh implementation and the oversight and the uh level of technical expertise that your staff uh brings to us. Thank you. Thank you so much, ma'am. Next up, functional classification changes and amendment to the transportation action plan. Thank you chair commissioner and I think chair miller and transportation commission. Yes, I will be talking about functional classification changes to our map and then a amendment to the transportation action plan.

So we have two proposed class functional classification changes to the function classification map that we have in the transportation action plan. one that was presented last month that is in the neighborhood between Sheay and Mountain View and the other one over in the Air Park area.

So, just as another background for the transportation action plan uh aligned with Scottsdale general plan of 2035, it defines the functional classification map which was approved by this body as well as city council in 2022 with updates and changes to the functional classification map. We usually do a comprehensive review of the functional classification map whenever we bring the overall transportation master plan or action plan forward.

This is going to be making several minor amendments or changes to that as it stands. Classification map. It defines the hierarchy or intended purpose of all of our roadways or all of our major roadways. The category the categories guide designs design The categories guide design standards and rideway needs. So the general purpose is that as MAG showed earlier in the previous presentation that we have our standards um in our design standards manual.

Those directly relate to the functional classification map. So, as we define these roadways as an arterial or collector or local, they they directly relate back to what our standard cross-sections are as well as the right of way that we need in order to build those roadways. The proposed amendments is 78th Street, Sha Boulevard to Mountain View Road as a minor collector uh going from a minor collector to a local road.

Sam uh Taylor, our principal traffic engineer, presented on the neighborhood, submitting a petition for that and we're looking to make a formal recommendation to council to make that functional classification change. And additionally, we have Chanty Lane over in the air park between Scottsdale Road and future Miller Road changing that from a local road to a minor collector.

Um so 78th Street uh reclassification from a minor collector to a local uh it was a resident petition uh persistent speeding concerns were the direct reason for this this change. Traffic analysis and a neighborhood meeting uh showed support for this change that we would like to make this change make a change to the speed limit and then also create more traffic coming along this corridor. So look to make this change to a local and then make that road more adhered to local conditions.

Here's the map again shown last month, but again that 78th Street coming down from Shay to Mountain View would drop off as that yellow line as a minor collector turn into a local road and then drop the speed limit down to 25 miles an hour. Then Chanty Lane from Scottsdale Road to Miller Road requested from a local to a minor collector. identified as a critical connection supporting airport access.

On the map, you can see the dashed lines being all the projected or future roads that will be developed as development comes in this area. This Miller Road will be built out as development comes in.

And then Chanty would connect Miller over to Scottsdale Road where we already have an existing roundabout at uh I'm blanking on the the inter the roadway there I think it's 76th 76th 76th has an existing roundabout and then over at Scottsdale has an existing signal so having that connection go through to Miller and provide an additional connection um it's the proposal of that roadway is supports a minor collector roadway and supports the function of that relieves most importantly relieves Princess Boulevard as development grows throughout this area.

So we'll have Mayo and Princess taking the brunt of the traffic off of Miller if we do not uh provide Chanty as a minor collector through this area. So that would be to make that official as a minor collector in the functional classification.

Next steps is take transportation's commission's recommendation right here and then a city council report uh to city council for formal adoption of the transport of the the amendments to the transportation action plan and then publish updated maps and tables on the city website. So any questions or comments on the proposed action? Thank you. Any questions? Commissioner Penquitz. Um, so you mentioned 78th Street came from a neighborhood pet petition.

Where did Chanty Lane um the recommended change come from? Staff's review of the area. We have a very undeveloped area up here where there's a lot of proposed roads. As we are working with private development and as we're working on this area, we saw a condition in our functional classification that we needed to fix which was identifying this as a minor collector that would connect to Miller. Okay.

Um my concern is the 78th Street um condition probably exists along a lot of streets in Scottsdale. And I'm just concerned that uh and I respect the neighbors for coming together and asking for for this. My concern is how are we being um how are we spreading the equity to all residents in Scottsdale. So people that have this condition and maybe they don't have the time to come here and request or gather together neighbors also get that same opportunity.

And at the same time I don't believe that dropping the speed limit without changing the design conditions is really going to do anything unless you have um enforcement there regularly to make that change. So, um, those are two of my concerns. I think a a lot of these things, and I've dealt with them working in transportation, it's like, well, you did it for so and so. Why can't we get it done?

How how do we create a process to look at all these conditions equally and maybe prioritize them in terms of safety, crash data, lighting, and things like that versus just taking them one at a time and possibly missing people that don't have the time uh uh to gather together to do this. Thank you, Chair Miller and Commissioner Penguins. That's an excellent question.

For this one, it was it started as a resident petition, but then our staff did do a evaluation through our neighborhood traffic management where they saw the they saw this the data that showed persistent speeding. And as we reduce this or as we request to reduce the functional classification and then the speed limit subsequently after that, that's just the phase one. The phase two is adding those traffic calmings, adding the changing the physical environment to reduce speeding.

I agree that just changing a speed limit doesn't reduce speeding, but there is the plan to put speed tables along this corridor and see. So, when a petition comes in, we definitely want to do a staff evaluation of those requests.

And then if there's other situations like this where a minor collector is really just connecting two short segments together, uh we can look at those kind of conditions as we bring up to the next update to the transportation action plan which is only 3 to four years away. Um as we do our comprehensive review of the functional classification and maybe we can spot similar of these conditions before the petitions have to come forward to us.

So those two things comprehensive review and then as the petitions come in we do our evaluation to make sure that we can at least justify and not just you know as you just said the case where uh somebody says you gave that to them why not us well we do our evaluation say there was different conditions to what they faced as opposed to what you're facing right now and that's why there's the difference. So definitely trying to explain that we've done our due diligence on that as well.

Yeah, I recall several months ago we had another resident uh petition with a similar condition and I would encourage staff to keep a list. You don't have to necessarily keep all the crash data and everything together, but um anytime we look at transportation improvements, it's it's good to look at the whole network and see if we were to face this, what would the priorities where would the priorities be, right? But yeah, Commissioner P. Thank you. That's a a great comment.

We'll make sure we keep logging everything. Chair Miller, Commissioner Pang, if I may add, Nathan, um, so we do have the speed ordinance and the collision report every two years that we produce. And to answer your question about how do we know that area if they don't they don't come up and ask you, right? So we based on those data we know which area which corridor is a high crash area we can focus on the improvement. So those are the things that we do every two years.

Thank you commissioners vice chair. Uh thank you Nathan. Um I I uh just had a couple comments. Um, first of all, I I agree with the reclassification of both streets. Um, it sounds like we're trying to compensate on especially on 78th for a uh um past error or something to that effect. Whether the street was designed intentionally or unintentionally, it is what it is. But at least dropping it to a to a local will help.

The concern I have though is kind of the same concern I had last time when we agreed to over or bypass the um neighborhood traffic management policies to allow the speed tables to go in, which I still support, but dropping it to a local won't will still require um council approval for any kind of traffic calming. Um it's not going to change the speed. I mean, the speed limit will change.

uh it's not going to change the behavior obviously um and I I just caution about that but I would also just request that uh when this change occurs we do some baseline studies certainly you got speed but it would also be nice to do some kind of uh license plate study to record where people are coming from if it's all neighborhood generated traffic then it's not going to really change but if you're if people are truly using it for a cut through.

Um then before and after license plate studies will tell you if that behavior has changed. Um and that might help in the future with any kind of recommendations that come out of here because I I think people are probably still going to use this until it's no longer convenient. And maybe the speed tables will be enough. I don't know.

Um, and I I would just recommend the same with the speed before and after um to get some baseline information, but it's a dicey situation and I think this is a good first step, but I don't know it's going to solve anything going forward. So, Bless Coxson, thank you. That's a good comment. We'll keep it as a reference and make sure that we it'd be good a study to for us to conduct and and get that information for sure. Mr. Deli, can you please bring back up the slide of the recommendation?

Oh, there we go. Is there a motion to accept the recommendation? I move that we accept staff recommendations for reclassification of both streets. Second the motion. We have a motion and a second. You got that? Take a motion by Vice Chair Wilox and second by Commissioner Cardella. Chair Miller, how do you vote? Yes. Thank you, Vice Chair Wiloxen. Yes. Thank you, Commissioner Marman. Yes. Thank you. Thank you. Commissioner Pankerich. Yes. Thank you, Commissioner Kofile. Yes.

Thank you, Commissioner Cardella. Yes. Thank you. All right. Thank you. Thank you. And last but not least, uh discussion for future agenda items. Commissioners have a list of future agenda items on here. I know we talked a little bit about that last u month. Commissioner Marman, did you have Yes. Um, I know I for one and maybe other commissioners would be interested in attending some of these open houses that go on around the community regarding transportation projects.

And I would um suggest that excuse me that um a general list of these meetings be provided to us in perhaps in the agenda as a note so we could have the option to attend and listen to the presentations. Thank you. That's a very good idea. Thank you. And I will take also this opportunity to put in a plug for the um opportunities to learn more about the transportation safety plan. Um there's a popup event right pretty much outside this door on Saturday at the fall festival.

Some um interactive walking assessments. So check your calendars and see if you can come to any of that. Are there any other items that we haven't um taken? Commissioner Penguins. Yeah. In reference to the resident that stopped by earlier uh in their comment about changing a transit route to serve the health center. Uh I would be interested to get a presentation uh not necessarily on the transit but exactly how does the city take the process of changing those routes?

um like what it takes to change them, I guess, and um how it's done, how often it's analyzed, and also how does it serve um low-income people that rely on the bus, and how does it serve their needs? Chair Miller, Commissioner Penguins, thank you. That's a we'll take note and make sure we come back with a presentation. And along with that, you have at the bottom of the first page transportation link to the tree and shade program.

I know that a lot of jurisdictions here in the valley are looking at uh how to shade bus stops better and um I would be interested in that presentation as well. Yes, we can bring forward how we do our traffic, our transit stops and how we try to maximize shade on those. We definitely have a way that we're trying to accomplish that and our new structures do as best as we can. So would love to present that. I am having transit come back in April for their commission presentation.

So, it could be either part of that or its own individual thing, but we're going to have a robust conversation of transit coming up in the spring. Um, one more request, if I can just add very quickly because Valley Metro just started outreach for a bus network redesign, doing outreach this fall. Um, coming back with a draft plan in the spring. So, we might want to coordinate with them. Um that's a I think there are 40 meetings planned opportunities to provide input.

Oh, that's really interesting. Yeah, that would be a really good um presentation to have. And lastly, um you know, we had a lot of rains this weekend.

a lot of streets got flooded and I've been really curious to see how um you know we talk about tree and shade but just landscape in general and low impact development and the ways that um I know Mesa has a lot of these um designs along certain streets in the light rail where I didn't ride by when it rained but they seem to capture a lot more water.

What does that take and how do we know which areas are more prone to flooding in that way and what we could do better landscape wise to to capture a lot of that. Thank you. Yeah, we can add that to the items and see if we can get somebody to present on that and what we can present on that. Vice Chair Wilson. Uh thank you, Chair Miller. I actually see it now. I was uh going to ask for an update on the cool pavement, but it's Yeah, I think it's in there as white pavement results.

I think that's the same thing, right? That would be the same thing. Um we'll switch that to cool pavement and we do have a plan to bring pavement forward, so maybe we can uh link that together and and see what the results of the cool pavement was from Phoenix. We have a couple slides on that too. Great. Thanks, Commissioner Kufa. Um, I had a couple of items that I would be interested in.

Um, I guess I the the trolley I I think I mean I I see how Tempe uses their trolley or their their neighborhood circulator and you know it goes much later than ours and is available on the weekends as well. And so I would be interested if we could have a presentation on how the uh on on how the route how how the I guess the hours of operation for the trolley is used because um I think it it would be really nice to have on the weekends when people are home and they can utilize it more.

like I see the kids using it a lot uh you know around the school hours they they get a lot of use and then uh but you know on the weekends it's just nowhere to be found and uh I understand that's just because of their hours the working hours but yeah I'd be interested if there could be uh some more information about how the hours are determined we definitely have that information so we'll add that to the transit update and I guess that be an open invitation now that if anybody has any burning questions for transit, I can start relaying those over and we can tailor that presentation to answer the questions beforehand instead of just afterwards.

Um, and then the other uh the other question I have or another thing I'd like to I'd be interested in uh because I remember you've heard me talk about this before when uh McDow Road got repaved. Um there used to be at the intersections going north south, there used to be a the symbol on the ground saying stop here to request green. And when they redid it and then they repainted, they did not put that symbol back.

You can still see it at the stop at the stop at the at the arms for the stop lightss. And uh you since I live on uh Thomas and Miller, I see that that's getting repaved right now. The you know, there's no pavement markings currently there. And uh there used to be, you know, I can still see that and I'm just concerned that those markings will go away uh when they're done there.

So I guess the question is just how transportation and streets uh kind of interact and and how how uh streets is made aware of like what markings should should be replaced when they when they do these uh pavement uh when when they do the pavement work and stuff like that. and then they do the repaving. So, I'd be interested in uh seeing how how how that all interacts together. Yeah, John see John seems eager to answer this question, so I'll pass it over to him.

Yeah, Chair Miller, Commissioner Cuffire, that's a very good question. We are actually working very closely with the paving team. Um before they pave, they supposed to as the area. So they have to know document what was there and when when they done paving they supposed to put everything back. I think there's a couple of projects previously that was not doing that but we on top of it now. So every projects that you see um they're going to put back if not more than what was before. Okay. Okay.

Cool. Thank you for that. Yeah. Yeah, because I just I was worried I was going to see that and and right right outside my doorstep now. So, yeah. Okay. Um All right. Thank you. Anything else for right now? Well, before we adjourn this meeting, I want to thank the commissioners. Uh this is my last meeting as chair and my last meeting on the commission after six years of of uh working with an excellent staff and uh such knowledgeable thoughtful commissioners.

Uh you can look at us and we make up a complete street. So I will leave this in the very capable hands of vice chair Wiloxen. Wish you well as you move forward with the safety plan. And with that, I will take a motion to adjurnn. Um, Chair Miller, I I I would say thank you for all the work you've done, uh, and how you've made the commission better. Uh, and they're pretty big shoes to fill. I appreciate nine and a halfs. So, with that, I will I will make the motion to adjurnn. Thank you.

Is there a second? Second. Second. All in favor say I. I. I. Opposed. Thank you. Thank you so much. We are adjourned.